For JWs and LDS

[Ran77]

Apparently your church does not as it willfully and flagrantly violates the Fourth Commandment.

Please remember we are discussing LDS theology and not necessarily my personal beliefs.

Does your church believe that God expects man to perfectly obey His commandments?

Nice dodge. Actually, we are discussing a flaw with your argument.

 

[skylark1]

Faith is given by God, not something we need to exercise ourselves. Being baptized is a response to the work God has done in us. It is not required for salvation. It is a statement of belief.

I think that we definitely do need to exercise faith. We are to apply our faith, and have an active and living faith. Although I don't recall the exact phrase of exercising our faith being used in the Bible, there are many times that we are told to trust in the Lord, both by example and by exhortation. Trusting in the Lord is exercising our faith.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I made a error then. I didn't mean to say baptism was required for salvation. It is something we are commanded by Christ to do, but not for salvation. We are commanded to believe and be baptized (in that order), but the scripture goes on to say that it is only belief that is required for salvation.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Only belief is coupled with salvation.

Thanks. That covers the 2nd question I had. My first question above was about faith vs. belief. Your position is confusing to me, and I hope you'll clarify. I have more follow-up questions in regards to what you just posted regarding question #2, but I'd like to clear up the faith/belief issue first.

You have stated that it is required for our salvation that we believe in Christ. You have stated that "we are commanded to believe."

Earlier you said, in relation to the two (now one) requirements you listed (belief and baptism), that "Faith is given by God, not something we need to exercise ourselves. Being baptized is a response to the work God has done in us. It is not required for salvation. It is a statement of belief."

From this it seems that you understand belief and faith to be one and the same. Is that accurate?

 

[TasteForTruth]

I think that we definitely do need to exercise faith. We are to apply our faith, and have an active and living faith. Although I don't recall the exact phrase of exercising our faith being used in the Bible, there are many times that we are told to trust in the Lord, both by example and by exhortation. Trusting in the Lord is exercising our faith.

Hello Skylark! Good to see you again!

On the topic: I agree!

 

[skylark1]

The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.

I disagree with you that mainstream Christians believe that all one has to do to be saved is lip service.

This is a passage of scripture that is frequently offered as what one must do in order to be saved.

Romans 10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

William Barclay wrote concerning calling Jesus Lori (kurios):

i. Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus: We can never forget all that it meant to say that Jesus Christ is Lord. “If a man called Jesus kurios he was ranking him with the Emperor and with God; he was giving him the supreme place in his life; he was pledging him implicit obedience and reverent worship.” (Barclay)​

I think that he explained it quite well. If one confesses Jesus Christ as his Lord, his allegience to him doesn't end with those words. He is pledging himself to be a disciple of Christ, and obedient to him.

 

[skylark1]

Hello Skylark! Good to see you again!

On the topic: I agree!

Hi TasteForTruth.

It is good to see you too.

 

[A New Dawn]

I think that we definitely do need to exercise faith. We are to apply our faith, and have an active and living faith. Although I don't recall the exact phrase of exercising our faith being used in the Bible, there are many times that we are told to trust in the Lord, both by example and by exhortation. Trusting in the Lord is exercising our faith.

I assumed from the way he used the phrase that he meant that we were supposed to come up with our faith, ourselves, which I believe is not possible. That is the context my comment was directed toward. I already explained that our faith, if true, is a living faith.

 

[fatboys]

I think that we definitely do need to exercise faith. We are to apply our faith, and have an active and living faith. Although I don't recall the exact phrase of exercising our faith being used in the Bible, there are many times that we are told to trust in the Lord, both by example and by exhortation. Trusting in the Lord is exercising our faith.

James 2:14-18

 

[fatboys]

I assumed from the way he used the phrase that he meant that we were supposed to come up with our faith, ourselves, which I believe is not possible. That is the context my comment was directed toward. I already explained that our faith, if true, is a living faith.

This has always perplexed me. Faith is a knowledge of things you know to be true, but can not see. We can faith in all things. How can God implant faith into someone?

 

[TasteForTruth]

The problem is, your church requires that certain things be done before salvation can happen. One HAS to join the LDS church, being baptized and confirmed by a member of the LDS priesthood. If one wants to be exalted, one HAS to have a temple recommend, and in order to get a temple recommend, one HAS to follow the Word of Wisdom, and one HAS to pay a specific amount of tithing, etc., and when one gets the temple recommend and goes to the temple, one HAS to learn secret oaths and handshakes in order to progress, and one HAS to be married celestially. That is how you force people to merit their salvation.

Hmmm. Seems, then, that what you describe below is also forcing people to merit salvation:

Those are all requirements that are not part of what Christ/the Bible says needs to be done. Believe and be baptized (in that order) is all that the Bible says is required for salvation. Anything more than that is a return to the law.

In your presented recipe for salvation, it is required—prerequisite, obligatory, etc.—that one believe (an exercise of one's will) and be baptized (an exercise of one's will). The only difference I see between the list far above and the list immediately above is that one is longer. They both involve human beings exercising their individual wills to obey God's commandments.

Faith is given by God, not something we need to exercise ourselves. Being baptized is a response to the work God has done in us. It is not required for salvation. It is a statement of belief.

I think that we definitely do need to exercise faith. We are to apply our faith, and have an active and living faith. Although I don't recall the exact phrase of exercising our faith being used in the Bible, there are many times that we are told to trust in the Lord, both by example and by exhortation. Trusting in the Lord is exercising our faith.

I assumed from the way he used the phrase that he meant that we were supposed to come up with our faith, ourselves, which I believe is not possible. That is the context my comment was directed toward. I already explained that our faith, if true, is a living faith.

Uh...I didn't even use the phrase you're referring to—you did. Look at the chain above... Nor did I say anything that could possibly have been construed to imply that I believed anyone produced their own faith! All I did was quote you in relation to the "requirements" for salvation, pointing out how our lists were equal in substance and only differed in length. That was when you introduced the whole faith thing. In fact, I've asked for clarification at least twice since you did a switcheroo from belief to faith—two entirely different things. Anyway, thought I'd make sure everyone knows who said what.

 

[A New Dawn]

Uh...I didn't even use the phrase you're referring to—you did. Look at the chain above... Nor did I say anything that could possibly have been construed to imply that I believed anyone produced their own faith! All I did was quote you in relation to the "requirements" for salvation, pointing out how our lists were equal in substance and only differed in length. That was when you introduced the whole faith thing. In fact, I've asked for clarification at least twice since you did a switcheroo from belief to faith—two entirely different things. Anyway, thought I'd make sure everyone knows who said what.

You used the phrase "an exercise of one's will" in regards to faith. That is what I was responding to.

Hmmm. Seems, then, that what you describe below is also forcing people to merit salvation:

In your presented recipe for salvation, it is required—prerequisite, obligatory, etc.—that one believe (an exercise of one's will) and be baptized (an exercise of one's will). The only difference I see between the list far above and the list immediately above is that one is longer. They both involve human beings exercising their individual wills to obey God's commandments.

Faith is given by God, not something we need to exercise ourselves. Being baptized is a response to the work God has done in us. It is not required for salvation. It is a statement of belief.

You spoke about the list of requirements and indicated that "exercising one's will" (in regards to faith) was a requirement so we did have a list of requirements (just not as long as yours). My response was to indicate that our faith is a gift to us and that we don't have to manufacture it ourselves, and as such, it isn't a requirement.

How can something that we don't manufacture on our own be a requirement for us for salvation? You might not have said it, but the fact that you are linking faith as a requirement for salvation indicates that we have to come up with it on our own.

I hope that clears it up.

 

[skylark1]

James 2:14-18

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

​

Fatboys, I do not disagree with James 2. I believe that a living faith will produce works. I haven't ever held any other position. I do not advocate merely lip service. I believe that Christians should feed the hungry, and care for the poor and homeless, as well as other works. I hope that is clear this time.

BTW, it is interesting that you replied to my post to Dawn, and ignored the one to you.

 

[A New Dawn]

This has always perplexed me. Faith is a knowledge of things you know to be true, but can not see. We can faith in all things. How can God implant faith into someone?

How does He give one visions, or imparts knowledge to someone?

 

[TasteForTruth]

You used the phrase "an exercise of one's will" in regards to faith. That is what I was responding to.





You spoke about the list of requirements and indicated that "exercising one's will" (in regards to faith) was a requirement so we did have a list of requirements (just not as long as yours). My response was to indicate that our faith is a gift to us and that we don't have to manufacture it ourselves, and as such, it isn't a requirement.

How can something that we don't manufacture on our own be a requirement for us for salvation? You might not have said it, but the fact that you are linking faith as a requirement for salvation indicates that we have to come up with it on our own.

I hope that clears it up.

Well, I'd like to point out again that I did not speak of faith. Follow one more time... Your words:

Those are all requirements that are not part of what Christ/the Bible says needs to be done. Believe and be baptized (in that order) is all that the Bible says is required for salvation. Anything more than that is a return to the law.

My follow-up:

In your presented recipe for salvation, it is required—prerequisite, obligatory, etc.—that one believe (an exercise of one's will) and be baptized (an exercise of one's will). The only difference I see between the list far above and the list immediately above is that one is longer. They both involve human beings exercising their individual wills to obey God's commandments.

Then your introduction of faith:

Faith is given by God, not something we need to exercise ourselves. Being baptized is a response to the work God has done in us. It is not required for salvation. It is a statement of belief.

And my attempts at obtaining clarification:

You speak as though faith and belief are one and the same thing. Is that what you believe?

You have stated that it is required for our salvation that we believe in Christ. You have stated that "we are commanded to believe."

Earlier you said, in relation to the two (now one) requirements you listed (belief and baptism), that "Faith is given by God, not something we need to exercise ourselves. Being baptized is a response to the work God has done in us. It is not required for salvation. It is a statement of belief."

From this it seems that you understand belief and faith to be one and the same. Is that accurate?

Hopefully this will clear up who said what. And hopefully you can clarify whether or not you understand faith and belief to be one and the same. (The scriptures make a clear distinction that is, in my mind, very important, and so I think it's worth clarifying.)

 

[A New Dawn]

Well, I'd like to point out again that I did not speak of faith. Follow one more time... Your words:


My follow-up:

Then your introduction of faith:

And my attempts at obtaining clarification:


Hopefully this will clear up who said what. And hopefully you can clarify whether or not you understand faith and belief to be one and the same. (The scriptures make a clear distinction that is, in my mind, very important, and so I think it's worth clarifying.)

Yes, I believe that faith and belief are close enough in meaning that they can be used interchangeably. The greek word for believe is pisteuō, meaning to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in, and the root word for pisteuō is pistis, which is the greek word for faith, which means conviction of the truth of anything, belief.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Yes, I believe that faith and belief are close enough in meaning that they can be used interchangeably. The greek word for believe is pisteuō, meaning to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in, and the root word for pisteuō is pistis, which is the greek word for faith, which means conviction of the truth of anything, belief.

Well, by your own definition, one is an action and the other a thing. I don't know about you, but I think that is extremely significant.

 

[A New Dawn]

Well, by your own definition, one is an action and the other a thing. I don't know about you, but I think that is extremely significant.

I don't know about you, but I see faith as something you have and something you do. I have faith about something and I take actions based on that faith.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I don't know about you, but I see faith as something you have and something you do. I have faith about something and I take actions based on that faith.

I agree that faith is something you have, or not. But it is isn't something I do. I do things on account of my faith. So of the two, faith is not the action—it is the catalyst to action...the motivation to act.

That leaves "believe." To believe, on the other hand, is an action and not a thing. It is an exercise of will.

We on the same page?

 

[A New Dawn]

I agree that faith is something you have, or not. But it is isn't something I do. I do things on account of my faith. So of the two, faith is not the action—it is the catalyst to action...the motivation to act.

That leaves "believe." To believe, on the other hand, is an action and not a thing. It is an exercise of will.

We on the same page?

I can see why you see it that way, but I still believe (have faith) that they are too close to call as separate entities. It reminds me of love. Love is both a noun (I am in love with God and my husband) and a verb (love one another as I have loved you).

 

[TasteForTruth]

I can see why you see it that way, but I still believe (have faith) that they are too close to call as separate entities. It reminds me of love. Love is both a noun (I am in love with God and my husband) and a verb (love one another as I have loved you).

Yes, I can see that. I guess I would ask... if God gives a person faith, does he have to believe?