For JWs and LDS

[Ran77]

Good point. So, Ran, can any Christian who is not LDS reach any level of Celestial glory?

I am fairly certain that I have addressed this already.

 

[Ran77]

Let's start with information provided at lds.org:

Yes. Let's do that.

Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians?
1 What is a Christian? The term is found three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16), but it is not defined in any of those passages. According to Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, the term Christian may be defined in a number of ways, but the most common is “one who believes or professes … to believe in Jesus Christ and the truth as taught by him … one whose life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ.” The second most common meaning is “a member of a church or group professing Christian doctrine or belief.”
Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians? New Era, May 1998

Well, there you have it. A modern LDS General Authority has made referrence to the dictionary (which is what I did) to come up with an answer that Christians are 1) one who believes or professes to believe in Jesus Christ and His teachings, or 2) a member of a church or group professing Christian doctrine or belief.

He correctly identified that the word Christian is in the Bible three times (my mistake for thinking it wasn't) and has brought up the point that it is not used in a way that defines it.

Now that you have verified that what I stated is the correct view of the LDS I suppose that puts this discussion to rest.

Let's look at LDS scripture which can't be construed by LDS as being merely speculation:

Doctrine and Covenants 84
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

Technically, misguided LDS could construe it as speculation just as non-LDS people can interpret Christian to mean a variety of things that it doesn't. People are amazing in their ability to do this.

However, to address the verses you cited. They do not provide a definition for Christian and they most certainly don't explain how the Church interprets the term. They discuss adoption into the house of Israel and the family of God through their faithfullness. The word Christian doesn't even appear in these verses.

This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth . . . (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pp. 164-165)

IOW, all but the LDS are outside the true Church. If Christ is the cornerstone of His Church and only Mormons are in that Church, where does that leave the rest of us?

Once again, this does not provide a meaning for the word Christian. Nor does it provide an understanding of how LDS view that term. If anything it supports what I have previously said, the LDS are not just one of the family of Christian churches. He recognizes the other churches as Christian.

Brigham Young stated:

Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10:230)

Was he only speculating?

That Brigham was a card. I wouldn't say that he was speculating, but he sure was offering his opinion. The Journal of Discourse does not represent the official view of the Church. It is not accepted as a doctrinal source. If you have to resort to the JoD to prove your point, I believe you have lost the debate.

However, I notice that even here Brigham still refers to them as "other Christians." And then expresses a view that they fail to meet the standards as set out by the Bible. Clearly, he is using this method of declaration to make a point. Which translates to: Christians should act like Christians.

LDS scripture:

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

First off, this is another verse that doesn't define how the Church understands the term Christian. It discusses the situation that those who do not follow God, follow the devil.

In fact, I think it rather think it supports what I've been saying. The other Christian churches belong, in this verse, to the church of the Lamb of God. It doesn't seperate the LDS Church, which didn't exist as such, from all of the other churches. It is an inspirational message that tells me to not quibble with my brothers in Christ, because we are all unified in having chosen God as our Master.

For those who haven't accepted Mormonism, LDS scripture says that they can come under Satan's power by having only the Bible as scripture:

Actually, anyone can come under Satan's power. So that isn't what the verse states.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
29 ...because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13Â[bless and do not curse]

Verse 29 states that some of the original teachings have been taken out of the Bible, which makes it easier for people to stumble. And when they stumble, Satan has great power over them.

It definately doesn't define the LDS understanding of what it means to be a Christian. It addresses the mistakes that have been made during translation of the Bible and to the decisions made when assembling the Bible from its original documents.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am fairly certain that I have addressed this already.

Actually, you did not yet in this thread. You did agree that non-LDS cannot achieve the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. The question here is much broader which is whether or not non-LDS Christians can even enter the Celestial Kingdom. As I understand the teachings of your church non-LDS people might hope for the Terrestial or Telestial Kingdoms, but certainly not the Celestial Kingdom. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Thanks

 

[Ran77]

Actually, you did not yet in this thread. You did agree that non-LDS cannot achieve the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. The question here is much broader which is whether or not non-LDS Christians can even enter the Celestial Kingdom. As I understand the teachings of your church non-LDS people might hope for the Terrestial or Telestial Kingdoms, but certainly not the Celestial Kingdom. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Here is my previous response: "If a person is not willing to do all that God asks them to do then they can not obtain the fullness of Heaven."

That is the answer to your question. It can be applied to the Celestial, Telestial, and Terrestrial glories.

 

[Rescued One]

Here is my previous response: "If a person is not willing to do all that God asks them to do then they can not obtain the fullness of Heaven."

That is the answer to your question. It can be applied to the Celestial, Telestial, and Terrestrial glories.

It would be more accurate to state the Third Article of Faith and explain what the word Gospel means in that article:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

"34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;"
Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith—History 1:34Â[bless and do not curse]


The gospel is our Heavenly Father's plan of happiness. The central doctrine of the gospel is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4).

Additional Information
In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gospel
(bold mine)

Many times the omission of information leaves the question unanswered.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes. Let's do that....

Because this post was very, very long and my time is limited I will address only part of it at this time.

This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth . . . (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pp. 164-165)...

Once again, this does not provide a meaning for the word Christian. Nor does it provide an understanding of how LDS view that term. If anything it supports what I have previously said, the LDS are not just one of the family of Christian churches. He recognizes the other churches as Christian.

Unfortunately you are misrepresenting what Ezra Taft Benson said. You changed the word a to the:

"This is not just one of a family of Christian churches."
Ezra Taft Benson
(bold mine)

He never said that there are many Christian churches and Joseph Smith didn't either! Joseph Smith claimed that they were all wrong! Would you like a reference?

Brigham Young stated:

Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 230)

That Brigham was a card. I wouldn't say that he was speculating, but he sure was offering his opinion. The Journal of Discourse does not represent the official view of the Church. It is not accepted as a doctrinal source. If you have to resort to the JoD to prove your point, I believe you have lost the debate.

However, I notice that even here Brigham still refers to them as "other Christians." And then expresses a view that they fail to meet the standards as set out by the Bible. Clearly, he is using this method of declaration to make a point. Which translates to: Christians should act like Christians.

Can someone be a Christian and be of Anti-christ?

I will now give my scripture—"Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God ... that spirit is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Anti-christ ... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 176).


Sorry...I've run out of time.

 

[fatboys]

Because this post was very, very long and my time is limited I will address only part of it at this time.



Unfortunately you are misrepresenting what Ezra Taft Benson said. You changed the word a to the:

"This is not just one of a family of Christian churches."
Ezra Taft Benson
(bold mine)

He never said that there are many Christian churches and Joseph Smith didn't either! Joseph Smith claimed that they were all wrong! Would you like a reference?




Can someone be a Christian and be of Anti-christ?

I will now give my scripture—"Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God ... that spirit is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Anti-christ ... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 176).


Sorry...I've run out of time.

Stop with the journal of discourses.

 

[Ran77]

It would be more accurate to state the Third Article of Faith and explain what the word Gospel means in that article:

More accurate? No. Just longer.

Additional Information

In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

And when you distill this down to the basics, you have what I stated.

Many times the omission of information leaves the question unanswered.

Yes, many times that might be the case. I'm glad I didn't omit any information.

 

[Ran77]

Because this post was very, very long and my time is limited I will address only part of it at this time.

Good point. Let's keep this simple. If we want to know the official answer to how the LDS Church defines a Christian we should go to the site, read what it has to say, and be done with it. Brevity is an excellent idea.

If you go to lds.org and look in the Bible Dictionary it offers this:

Christians. A name first given to believers in Jesus Christ at Antioch in Syria, about A.D. 43 (Acts 11:26). It was perhaps given contemptuously, but was accepted by followers of Christ as a fit title. See 1 Pet. 4:16; Alma 46:15.


The Topical Guide offers this:

disciples were called Christians first in Antioch, Acts 11:26

Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian, Acts 26:28

if any man suffer as a Christian, 1 Pet. 4:16

took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians, Alma 46:15 (Alma 48:10).


The Guide To The Scriptures referrences Disciple and Saint. Disciple offers this:

A follower of Jesus Christ who lives according to Christ’s teachings (D&C 41:5). Disciple is used to describe the Twelve Apostles whom Christ called during his mortal ministry (Matt. 10:1–4). Disciple is also used to describe the twelve men whom Jesus chose to lead his Church among the Nephites and Lamanites (3 Ne. 19:4).


And Saint offers this:

A faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Notice that this does not say The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. When talks from the General Authorities discuss Christianity it is most often in the context that the LDS too are Christians. Which means they accept that members of other churches are Christian.

And all of these support my original statement on this matter.

 

[Rescued One]

LDS today will call others Christians, but as I have shown, it ain't good enough to be a Christian.

"If persons separate themselves from the Lord’s church, they thereby separate themselves from his means of salvation, for salvation is through the Church."
Mark E. Peterson, “Salvation Comes through the Church,” Ensign, July 1973, 108

 

[Ran77]

"If persons separate themselves from the Lord’s church, they thereby separate themselves from his means of salvation, for salvation is through the Church."

So you disagree with this? You don't think that a person that seperates themself from the Lord's church seperates themself from their means of salvation?

 

[A New Dawn]

LDS today will call others Christians, but as I have shown, it ain't good enough to be a Christian.

I think part of that is because they have redefined what Christianity is. As much as they say we don't understand what LDSism really is, even though several here have been LDS (or part of the restoration), they don't understand Christianity past what they have been force-fed about what Christianity is. It is clear, to me, at least, that they rely on the age old LDS belief in what Christianity is and what we believe, while neither one of them is true. If they understood what we believe about Christ/Christianity, they would understand that being a Christian is synonymous with living with God in glory.

 

[fatboys]

I think part of that is because they have redefined what Christianity is. As much as they say we don't understand what LDSism really is, even though several here have been LDS (or part of the restoration), they don't understand Christianity past what they have been force-fed about what Christianity is. It is clear, to me, at least, that they rely on the age old LDS belief in what Christianity is and what we believe, while neither one of them is true. If they understood what we believe about Christ/Christianity, they would understand that being a Christian is synonymous with living with God in glory.

The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.

 

[Ran77]

The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.

What about the converts from other Christian faiths? I would think that they have an understanding of Christianity that is seperate from anything that might possibly come from the LDS.

Besides, I always get a kick out of comments like this one. What a hoot to think that we are force fed, or forced anything in the church.

 

[Ratiocination]

The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.

Don't you just love logic! Great post...

 

[A New Dawn]

The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.

Like I said, you know nothing about Christianity. Everything you say is hearsay. "From what I gather from mainstream Christians .........." is wrong. Who here has ever said that all you have to do is pay lip service????? Really. Find me one post that says that. And let me remind you that not all who cry "Lord, Lord" are His.

What I mean about LDS being force fed is that the same exact things you are saying now, even in this post I quoted, is nothing different from what JS and all the old prophets have proclaimed since the very beginning of the movement. "They profess with their lips but their hearts are far from me" sounds really similar to "... all one has to do to be saved is lip service".

 

[A New Dawn]

What about the converts from other Christian faiths? I would think that they have an understanding of Christianity that is seperate from anything that might possibly come from the LDS.

And I see that the members who are no longer LDS are afforded the same ability to retain what they know about the LDS church as the converts from Christianity to the LDS church.














NOT.

 

[Rescued One]

...If they understood what we believe about Christ/Christianity, they would understand that being a Christian is synonymous with living with God in glory.

Thank you. This is what I'm trying to get people to see.

 

[Rescued One]

The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service.

God produces fruit in those who have been grafted onto the True Vine. Without Him we can do nothing.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 1:6

At the time of grafting, God begins a good work. It is God who makes us stand firm in Christ. He will keep us strong to the end.

Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service.

God never created lip service. That is a work of Satan. Who, in this thread, has claimed that lip service is a fruit of the Spirit? The Spirit of God produces fruit!

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9

To the regenerated, Paul explained, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be.

Because you were addressing A New Dawn, will you enlighten us as to what she believes Christianity to be?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.

Herein lie some of the differences between the God of Mormonism and God as understood by orthodox Christianity. I fail to understand how God cannot understand everything about a person (Psalm 139). I don't have to prove anything to God at all because he knows me through and through. I do not have to jump through a lot of hoops in order to gain His favor. He gives me His grace as a totally free gift through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8,9). I find it really rather sad that some think God is just a glorified man who demands performance on the part of his creation to determine whether or not he will let them into his Celestial (or otherwise) Kingdom.