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For Creationists.....

TheOutsider

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Here's what Talk.Origins says about the list:

  1. The criticisms of the general claim that many scientists reject evolution apply also to this list of scientists.
    • Claims of skepticism are worthless without reliable evidence as a basis for the skepticism. Such evidence is lacking. Claims for such evidence by the Discovery Institute (DI) have been repeatedly examined and dismissed by those who understand evolutionary biology.
    • Compared with all the scientists who accept evolution, 400 scientists is a minuscule amount. The National Center for Science Education has compiled, as a parody of lists such as that from the Discovery Institute, a list of more than 500 scientists all named Steve, or with variants of that name, who support evolution (NCSE 2003). There are only five Steves on the DI's list of 400.
    • The DI's list is exaggerated as an anti-evolution document (see below).
  2. The statement which the signatories agreed to is not anti-evolution. It says,
    We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged. (Discovery Institute 2004)​
    Since scientists are trained to examine evidence and to be skeptical of everything, even ardent evolutionists could sign such a statement. Indeed, it is well known that random mutation and natural selection are not the only mechanisms contributing to the complexity of life; other mechanisms such as genetic drift and symbiosis are important, too. The statement signed by the scientists of "Project Steve" is more more specific:
    Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools. (NCSE 2003)​
    Although many of the people on the Discovery Institute's list are anti-evolutionists, it is likely that most of them would disagree with fixity of "kinds" and a young earth (Evans 2001). In another list, the Discovery Institute put out a bibliography of publications that "represent dissenting viewpoints that challenge one or another aspect of neo-Darwinism . . ., discuss problems that evolutionary theory faces, or suggest important new lines of evidence that biology must consider when explaining origins." When the authors of the publications were contacted, none said that their works support "intelligent design" or challenge evolution (Branch 2002). Bob Davidson, one of the signators of the DI's list of 400, says, "the scientific evidence for evolution is overwhelming" and now thinks the Discovery Institute is an affront to both science and religion (Westneat 2005).
  3. Most of the signators to the DI's list (about 80%) are not biologists; some are not even scientists. Generally speaking, mathematicians, electrical engineers, philosophers, and so forth are only marginally more qualified to comment on the validity of evolution than the average person on the street.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111_1.html
 
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metherion

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Okie dokie. I got it down to 54 pages. This includes the short biography, that is coming out next.

I included:
genetics, organic chem, bio-aything (except for most medicines), zoology, botany, entomology, and a handful more. If there is a request for it, I will publish the list of who seems to be possibily qualified.

An actual number will come in maybe another hour or so.

Metherion

Edit: okie dokie. The count is done. Of all those listed, the ones who MIGHT be able to accurately comment on it is 548. And I doubt all of them can.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Originally Posted by RichardT
I know this. Did I ever say it was? The same Centrifugal force would be present in a rotating universe. This was confirmed with experiments by Hans Thirring.

"In fact, Hans Thirring, famous for the Lense-Thirring effect, found that for a rotating shell of matter, the interior field of the shell is similar to the field in a rotating system of coordinates, leading to gravitational forces similar to the centrifugal and Coriolis effects in the Heliocentric system."

It's too bad that I can't get you the reference now though

Originally Posted by lemmings
How does the ether supports itself by rotating.

If it wasn't moving it would collapse on itself because of it's immense (planck) density.

So why has no one ever been able to design any experiment that actually detects this "ether" with its immense Plank density?

What is the angular momentum of the ether/universe as it rotates around the earth daily? One would think it really enormous. So how is it that the rotation of the universe around the earth is slowing down at the rate one would expect if it were the rotating earth that was being slowed down due to friction loss from tidal coupling in the earth/moon system?

How is that there are small seasonal variations in the rate of the rate that the universe rotates around the earth? It is true that the cause variations in the length of day is not well understood but is is probably because of variations in atmospheric angular momentum. They would seem to be to be totally impossible in a geocentric universe again due to the vast angular momentum of a unverse that is zipping around the earth each day.

How is it that massive earthquakes can cause slight but measureable variations in the rate the entire universe rotates around the earth. This would also seem to me to be impossible in a geocentric universe.
 
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Basket

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Giant space monkeys! Why are you people talking about the idea of the ether? Is this the same ether that Isaac Newton and others believed existed, or... are you talking about some newer theories?

Sorry, my attention span is too short to figure out why you're talking about this.
 
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lemmings

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If it wasn't moving it would collapse on itself because of it's immense (planck) density.
A universe that supports itself by rotation would have to be of a disk shape. A spherical universe like our own would collapse.

Also, the density doesn’t explain how anything, apart from singularities, is able to move relative to the ether. According to geocentricism, Barnard's Star is plowing through a median that is roughly 1e45 (That's a quattuordecillion BTW) times denser than itself at 140km/s. Not likely.
 
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RedAndy

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Giant space monkeys! Why are you people talking about the idea of the ether? Is this the same ether that Isaac Newton and others believed existed, or... are you talking about some newer theories?

Sorry, my attention span is too short to figure out why you're talking about this.
RichardT is a geocentrist, and the ether is a part of his cosmology.
 
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RichardT

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How is it that massive earthquakes can cause slight but measureable variations in the rate the entire universe rotates around the earth. This would also seem to me to be impossible in a geocentric universe.

Earthquakes can be allowed for in a biblical Geocentric perspective.
 
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RichardT

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Also, the density doesn’t explain how anything, apart from singularities, is able to move relative to the ether. According to geocentricism, Barnard's Star is plowing through a median that is roughly 1e45 (That's a quattuordecillion BTW) times denser than itself at 140km/s. Not likely.
The uncertainty principle would have to allow for it. The sun and planets are like corks in very dense water comparatively.

A universe that supports itself by rotation would have to be of a disk shape. A spherical universe like our own would collapse

Why?
 
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metherion

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Actually, earthquakes both can and can't be allowed at the same time.

Psalms 104:5 specifically says that the earth CANNOT BE MOVED. Since earthquakes move the earth, they obviously don't happen.

OTOH, Job 9:6 and Isaiah 24:18 both make reference to the earth moving by being shaken.

And those three verses also can't decide on pillars or a solid foundation for the earth.

Sigh.

Metherion
 
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RichardT

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What is the angular momentum of the ether/universe as it rotates around the earth daily? One would think it really enormous. So how is it that the rotation of the universe around the earth is slowing down at the rate one would expect if it were the rotating earth that was being slowed down due to friction loss from tidal coupling in the earth/moon system?

Because this is seemingly supposed to happen in order to allow the laws of gravitation/relativity to be satisfied. You know what I think is really cool? The fact that Malcolm Bowden, a geocentrist, wrote about the earth moon system and it was hosted on the True.Origin archive.

http://www.trueorigin.org/moonmb.asp
 
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RichardT

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Actually, earthquakes both can and can't be allowed at the same time.

Psalms 104:5 specifically says that the earth CANNOT BE MOVED. Since earthquakes move the earth, they obviously don't happen.

OTOH, Job 9:6 and Isaiah 24:18 both make reference to the earth moving by being shaken.

And those three verses also can't decide on pillars or a solid foundation for the earth.

Sigh.

Metherion

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Obviously, "should" is conditional, because the earth will move on the day of judgment.

And those three verses also can't decide on pillars or a solid foundation for the earth.
Obviously, the pillars can't be supports for a flat earth, because Job 26:7 teaches us that this is not true.

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

The pillars are taken to be crystalline rock which are found oriented vertically.

Picture6.gif
 
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FishFace

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Because any material on the axis of rotation would have zero angular momentum and fall straight towards the centre of gravity.

Excuse me for asking the obvious, Richard, but how is it we can compute orbits of spacecraft with a heliocentric model, but not with a geocentric one? Exactly what configuration of the planets and stars are you proposing, and how is this hypothesis A) falsifiable and B) vindicated?
 
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Basket

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RichardT, could you explain what kind of "ether" you're talking about? And what does it have to do with the idea of the earth being the center of the universe? What physical evidence (not Bible verses) lead you to believe that the earth is at the center of the universe?
 
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lemmings

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The uncertainty principle would have to allow for it.
The Uncertainty Principle operates on the atomic scale, it has virtually no effect on an object the size of a planet or star.
The sun and planets are like corks in very dense water comparatively.
Your cork example doesn’t work because corks are stationary relative to the water that they are moving in. Stars are not, they move relative to each other. A better example would be a car coasting down a road. If the car was traveling through a median with high density, you would have the breaks applied and sooner or later the car would stop. If it wasn’t traveling through a median then the breaks would never have been applied and the car would remain at a constant speed.
I'l go with FishFace's answer.
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=38435817&postcount=175
Because any material on the axis of rotation would have zero angular momentum and fall straight towards the centre of gravity.
 
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FoeHammer

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Anyone. Its objectively determinable. If you don't believe me, try it yourself.
The dictionary.com definition for religion is sufficient for me:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when.....
''esp.'' But not explicitly eh?
<<<SNIPPED<<<
Irrelevant... see above.
Because that's what you're talking about when you want to pretend that it is impossible to reconstruct past events with scientific evidence in lieu of faith.
Are you telling me that forensic science is infallible? If not then I fail to see why it keeps getting mentioned.
No, I meant 'evidence', not "interpretation of the evidence". See, "evidence" is a set of factual circumstances explicable by, or indicative of, one scenario over any other. If you think any of these things align better with your creation-by-magic-words scenario, you're welcome to explain what that evidence is. But I know there are volumes more facts against you than you could possibly suspect, and you'd have to address it all. Because the methods of interpreting evidence don't include ignoring it.
You posted an evolutionary interpretation of ''evidence''.[quote]I think I can answer all that with a 'yes', because I am studying to be a career paleontologist, and I've already taken cellular biology, paleobiology, evolution as 4th level biology, and I've taken physical geology and historical geology, and I've been informed that my own original research in systematics was once cited as a resource in a Master's thesis in biology also.[/quote]Good for you but you have neglected to answer the first question:
How much of what you claimed is based on your own research?
Definitely not.
Then I shall ask the question again:
How much of what you claimed is based on your own research?
Perhaps its not clear enough, especially since you're ignoring context. Allow me to clarify:

You're also ignoring the rest of the definition from your own cited source:
You say ''perhaps it's not clear enough'' and ''allow me to clarify'' then go on to complicate matters. It was perfectly clear to me with the first entry for faith at dictionary,com
faith
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
At the online etymology dictionary.com the first entry for faith says:
faith c.1250, "duty of fulfilling one's trust," from O.Fr. feid, from L. fides "trust, belief," from root of fidere "to trust," from PIE base *bhidh-/*bhoidh- (cf. Gk. pistis; see bid)
So faith = trust = faith.
None of this indicates "trust".
But what I have quoted does and it does, by definition, includes your faith = trust = faith in evo-scientists... Adapt and move on.
Then of course, we have the words of the clergy:

Then we have other Christian sources like:

According to all these sources and even the BIble itself, faith is not synonemous with trust. It is a stoic conviction but without evidence.
Absolutely not. You give me your opinion and the opinions of others as if I should be impressed by them somehow... well I'm not.
KJV1611 ONLY
You are shameless it would seem. Posting snippets from The Bible that you believe support your argument but when taken in context, (something you accused me of ignoring earlier) OBVIOUSLY do not.

FoeHammer.
 
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