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For Creationists.....

RichardT

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So where is theistic evolution in this diagram?

Philosophical / Methodological Naturalism. (which again, for all practical purposes is atheistic)

thaumaturgy and Aron-Ra told me many times that unless I can objectively test for God, then I cannot use Him in science. Again, for example, in a Godless universe, why should we assume that natural laws have always been consistent in the unobserved past? The fact that they are consistent now doesn't tell us anything about the past, what if all natural laws were to change every so often in the unobserved past?
 
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thaumaturgy

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Sorry, I meant to say that thaumaturgy said something along that line. It wasn't about me specifically.

Well, that is a bit extreme. But I cannot divorce myself from the claim. Indeed it is not up to scientists to disprove God but rather for theists to PROVE God should you want him used in Science in any way.

Let's do a thought experiment here real quick:

Suppose for a sec that indeed we all agree that "God created the earth and all life". Ok. What do we do with that knowledge?

1. Does it tell us anything about God? No. Except that maybe he is overly fond of bacteria. The planet is uniquely suited to them. We are a useful host at times and often a threat. So if you agree that creation tells us something about God, it isn't what your particular faith says God is like. (Just so ya know).

2. How can I move forward with understanding the physical evidence of the planet? Well, I can't really. God created this stuff, so indeed, he could uncreate it or worse yet, just make stuff appear. I can tell you as a chemist that would really wreck my whole game. I pretty much have to have all the masses balance in the end. If God is prone to ex nihilo creation it pretty much means I'm skating and learning nothing of value.

4. How can I understand anything at all? Well, really I can't. I have this "Creator God" about whom I know virtually nothing except he likes bacteria and he seems pretty ambivalent about human existence. Seems good people who believe in a God and worship him get about the same breaks as bad people who don't. So I'm going to have to go with "God loves bacteria".

But the reason we can't even use your "God Hypothesis" is precisely because YOU who defend it and want it earnestly in the sciences can't define it in such a way that the scientists can use the information.

This says nothing about God's existence. It would be wrong to call you a crackpot unless you actively were doing science and doing it with a God-Hypothesis because you would be doing "crackpot science".

So if I intimated you were a crackpot for believing in God I was wrong. If you are a scientist doing science with a "God Hypothesis" then you are likely a crackpot.

Hope that clears it up. Again, looking at your age, I'm assuming you are not a practicing scientist and therefore probably not a crackpot.

I disagree with your beliefs but if I recall we were discussing science and how it is done.
 
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RichardT

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Well, that is a bit extreme. But I cannot divorce myself from the claim. Indeed it is not up to scientists to disprove God but rather for theists to PROVE God should you want him used in Science in any way.

Let's do a thought experiment here real quick:

Suppose for a sec that indeed we all agree that "God created the earth and all life". Ok. What do we do with that knowledge?

1. Does it tell us anything about God? No. Except that maybe he is overly fond of bacteria. The planet is uniquely suited to them. We are a useful host at times and often a threat. So if you agree that creation tells us something about God, it isn't what your particular faith says God is like. (Just so ya know).

2. How can I move forward with understanding the physical evidence of the planet? Well, I can't really. God created this stuff, so indeed, he could uncreate it or worse yet, just make stuff appear. I can tell you as a chemist that would really wreck my whole game. I pretty much have to have all the masses balance in the end. If God is prone to ex nihilo creation it pretty much means I'm skating and learning nothing of value.

4. How can I understand anything at all? Well, really I can't. I have this "Creator God" about whom I know virtually nothing except he likes bacteria and he seems pretty ambivalent about human existence. Seems good people who believe in a God and worship him get about the same breaks as bad people who don't. So I'm going to have to go with "God loves bacteria".

But the reason we can't even use your "God Hypothesis" is precisely because YOU who defend it and want it earnestly in the sciences can't define it in such a way that the scientists can use the information.

This says nothing about God's existence. It would be wrong to call you a crackpot unless you actively were doing science and doing it with a God-Hypothesis because you would be doing "crackpot science".

So if I intimated you were a crackpot for believing in God I was wrong. If you are a scientist doing science with a "God Hypothesis" then you are likely a crackpot.

Hope that clears it up. Again, looking at your age, I'm assuming you are not a practicing scientist and therefore probably not a crackpot.

I disagree with your beliefs but if I recall we were discussing science and how it is done.

I think I sort of understand what you're trying to tell me, but is the Theory of Evolution (The belief in common ancestry of all living things) really a practical belief? Talk.Origins says yes.

I want to tell you now (but you probably already knew this) that I will believe in any process which can be empirically demonstrated in the present. So any of the supposed practical applications of the ToE would also be practical to Creationists, since Creationists believe in anything that is empirically demonstrated.

So, our "debate" really comes down to one question, whether or not presuming naturalism in the unobserved past will add more to human knowledge than presuming any of the Creation theories.

I would like to state that as long as both frameworks use potentially falsifiable hypotheses, they can both add to human knowledge depending on which framework one uses. It is also possible for one framework to be superior to the other, in that there are more working theories in one framework than in the other.

If there are working theories in one framework, it doesn't mean that it is not possible for equal or better theories in another.
 
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Aron-Ra

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I want to tell you now (but you probably already knew this) that I will believe in any process which can be empirically demonstrated in the present. So any of the supposed practical applications of the ToE would also be practical to Creationists, since Creationists believe in anything that is empirically demonstrated.
No they don't. Transitional species, obsevered macroevolution, the geologic column and proof of radiometric dating and tectonic plate movement are all examples things which are empricly demonstrated but which creationists still deny. I could add charted planetary rotation to that list too if you like.
So, our "debate" really comes down to one question, whether or not presuming naturalism in the unobserved past will add more to human knowledge than presuming any of the Creation theories.
First of all, there's never been any theory of creation. Evolution is the only theory of biodiversity with literally no alternatives to choose from.

Secondly, is there any situation wherein imagining magic instead has any chance of improving our understanding of anything?
 
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RichardT

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No they don't. Transitional species,
Debatable. I don't really want to get into this yet because I know that you are the master of Paleontology.

obsevered macroevolution
Yes, Creationists agree with observed speciation events.

From AiG :

“Creationists believe in microevolution but not macroevolution.”

These terms, which focus on “small” vs. “large” changes, distract from the key issue of information. That is, particles-to-people evolution requires changes that increase genetic information, but all we observe is sorting and loss of information. We have yet to see even a “micro” increase in information, although such changes should be frequent if evolution were true. Conversely, we do observe quite “macro” changes that involve no new information, e.g., when a control gene is switched on or off."

the geologic column and proof of radiometric dating
Debatable, we can talk about some supposed overthrusts / erosion and non-correlating dates.

and tectonic plate movement
There are some working Creationist theories that account for this. Like Dr. Baumgardner's Catastrophic plate tectonic theory. (Although it is basically equal to tectonic plate theory, and I don't like it that much because it allows for too much natural catastrophe within the geologic column)

http://www.creationwiki.org/Catastrophic_Plate_Tectonics

are all examples things which are empricly demonstrated but which creationists still deny.
We interpret all empirical data within our philosophical framework.

I could add charted planetary rotation to that list too if you like.
How? The earth cannot be empirically demonstrated to move. (Foucault's Pendulum etc... are all accounted for) But we aren't talking about Geocentricity right now.

First of all, there's never been any theory of creation.

But of course there can't possibly be any theory of creation if philosophical naturalism is the only framework you are going to work in!

Evolution is the only theory of biodiversity with literally no alternatives to choose from.

Within the philosophical naturalist framework.
 
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lemmings

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But it could, I don't see why not, the fact that the universe is huge doesn't stop the ether. If the ether were to stop moving it would collapse on itself.
I have already disproved this about a month ago in the dinosaur thread. Centrifugal force is NOT the opposite of Gravity.
 
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Aron-Ra

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I have already disproved this about a month ago in the dinosaur thread. Centrifugal force is NOT the opposite of Gravity.
Technically, centrifugal force may not even exist. What we call centrifugal force may only be the absence of centripedal force.
 
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RichardT

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I have already disproved this about a month ago in the dinosaur thread. Centrifugal force is NOT the opposite of Gravity.

I know this. Did I ever say it was? The same Centrifugal force would be present in a rotating universe. This was confirmed with experiments by Hans Thirring.

"In fact, Hans Thirring, famous for the Lense-Thirring effect, found that for a rotating shell of matter, the interior field of the shell is similar to the field in a rotating system of coordinates, leading to gravitational forces similar to the centrifugal and Coriolis effects in the Heliocentric system."

It's too bad that I can't get you the reference now though.
 
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thaumaturgy

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I think I sort of understand what you're trying to tell me, but is the Theory of Evolution (The belief in common ancestry of all living things) really a practical belief? Talk.Origins says yes.

A practical belief, scientifically speaking, is one in which the factors that explain the outcomes are reasonable and verifiable to all observers.

For evolution scientists start off with the question:

Why does life seem to change over time?

The answer can only include those factors we can test for. That's when we realized:

1. Life can change due to genetic mutations, genetic drift

2. Life can only surivive in those conditions in which it can surivive. (Therefore we have a "filter" where life can be eliminated by the very natural force of "nature")

That's all we need. Everything can be explained.

So we have the factors. And further we have millions and billions of years of historical record as shown in the rocks.

Indeed God may have been involved in life's change over time, but the key is if you propose God as a factor you've just added an unnecessary factor. It adds nothing and doesn't explain anything that can't be explained by all the known factors. (Again, as I've said ad nauseam; this says nothing about God's existence or lack of existence).

I want to tell you now (but you probably already knew this) that I will believe in any process which can be empirically demonstrated in the present. So any of the supposed practical applications of the ToE would also be practical to Creationists, since Creationists believe in anything that is empirically demonstrated.

Clearly for most creationists this is not the case. Obviously evolution's applicabilities are so thoroughly ingrained in the field of biology and that underlies medicine, and is therefore already important to them. They still choose to disbelieve it.

Since I am not a biologist I'll leave it to them to explain how biology's utility suffers when you axe evolution.

So, our "debate" really comes down to one question, whether or not presuming naturalism in the unobserved past will add more to human knowledge than presuming any of the Creation theories.

Do you believe a police detective can solve a crime he or she didn't observe? Do you believe that they must re-commit the crime (ie kill someone) to solve the crime? How can they do that? The person who would need to be killed is already dead!

You see, deductive science has utility already. You want all science to be funnelled into some "experiment then proof" model. Sure those experiments have been run that let us know how blood splatters and even how bodies break down. The same can be said for evolution. We know about genetic mutation and drift and we KNOW about how animals die.

What we don't know is anything meaningful about God.

I would like to state that as long as both frameworks use potentially falsifiable hypotheses, they can both add to human knowledge depending on which framework one uses. It is also possible for one framework to be superior to the other, in that there are more working theories in one framework than in the other.

And of course creationism relies on one gigantic unfalsifiable hypothesis: GOD.

If there are working theories in one framework, it doesn't mean that it is not possible for equal or better theories in another.

But you see what you are arguing is exactly what Creationism does time and again. The creationists have never produced their own valid conclusions or science, they simply want to poke holes in evolution and hope that they will become the de facto winner. That, too, isn't science and it isn't logic.

If creationists want to be taken seriously it is NOT up to evolutionists to help them, but rather for them, the creationists, to provide actual proof of the one key difference between the camps: The Neccessity of the God Hypothesis.

That's all. They have a really really simple SINGLE job to do and despite millenia to have done it they have failed at every turn.

At some point you have to say: "YOU didn't do your job, you didn't do your homework, your side currently is at a loss."
 
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Aron-Ra

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Aron-Ra said:
Transitional species,
Debatable. I don't really want to get into this yet because I know that you are the master of Paleontology.
As you already know, we have hundreds of examples which meet every criteria of the strictest definition available, and most creationist sites know about several of them, and they know they fit the bill. Yet not one site among them is honest enough to admit that fact, and all of them deliberately lie about each example they know anything at all about.
obsevered macroevolution
Yes, Creationists agree with observed speciation events.
While in the same breath denying that macroevolution occurs.
From AiG :

“Creationists believe in microevolution but not macroevolution.”

These terms, which focus on “small” vs. “large” changes, distract from the key issue of information. That is, particles-to-people evolution requires changes that increase genetic information, but all we observe is sorting and loss of information. We have yet to see even a “micro” increase in information, although such changes should be frequent if evolution were true.
None of this can be quantified nor substantiated. They made it all up and deliberately misrepresented it to the point of ridicule because they have no legitimate criticism.
Conversely, we do observe quite “macro” changes that involve no new information, e.g., when a control gene is switched on or off."
This is another deliberately dishonest misrepresentation with no explanation given for how to quantify "information" in anything. What they're doing is propping up a smoke screen to conceal the fact that macroevolution = speciation, and they must move the goal posts now that they know they can no longer claim that no one will ever prove that one species evolves into another.
the geologic column and proof of radiometric dating
Debatable, we can talk about some supposed overthrusts / erosion and non-correlating dates.
Bring it.
and tectonic plate movement
There are some working Creationist theories that account for this. Like Dr. Baumgardner's Catastrophic plate tectonic theory. (Although it is basically equal to tectonic plate theory, and I don't like it that much because it allows for too much natural catastrophe within the geologic column)
As I said before, there has never been any theory of creationism, not Baumgardner's already disproved made-up nonsense without evidence, and not anyone else's unfalsifiable home-made hocus pocus hogwash either.
are all examples things which are empricly demonstrated but which creationists still deny.
We interpret all empirical data within our philosophical framework.
My interpretation is that when you claim something is true, when we can prove that you already know it is wrong, then you are lying.
I could add charted planetary rotation to that list too if you like.
How? The earth cannot be empirically demonstrated to move. (Foucault's Pendulum etc... are all accounted for) But we aren't talking about Geocentricity right now.
Actually, yes, you not only can empiracly tell it is moving, but you can even quantify how fast it is moving relative to other things around it, like the sun.
But of course there can't possibly be any theory of creation if philosophical naturalism is the only framework you are going to work in!
Imagine that it is not "philisophical naturalism", because in fact it is not. But remember that the mission of science is to improve our understanding of the perceptible universe, and we must be able to identify the flaws in our perception and be sure that it is improving when corrections are made. How can you do in your framework where you can bypass mythodology and ignore everything you don't wanna see because magic counts as science and "cuz I wanna believe it" counts as evidence, and where you'll never be either systematic nor accountable on any point?
Evolution is the only theory of biodiversity with literally no alternatives to choose from.
Within the philosophical naturalist framework.
No, within any framework. Remember, a theory is a body of knowledge encompassing facts, hypotheses, and verifiable laws. You have no facts to show, your guesses aren't testable, there ain't no ryhme nor reason behind miracles, and you can believe whatever you want about God and creation, but you don't know -any of it.
 
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lemmings

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I know this. Did I ever say it was? The same Centrifugal force would be present in a rotating universe. This was confirmed with experiments by Hans Thirring.

"In fact, Hans Thirring, famous for the Lense-Thirring effect, found that for a rotating shell of matter, the interior field of the shell is similar to the field in a rotating system of coordinates, leading to gravitational forces similar to the centrifugal and Coriolis effects in the Heliocentric system."

It's too bad that I can't get you the reference now though.
How does the ether supports itself by rotating.
 
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metherion

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I would just like to say that I am looking at the list of 3000 Darwin skeptics and I am going to figure out just how many are in relevant fields, which I will define as: anything with bio- in it (like biology, biochemistry, bioengineering, etc), zoology, and more that I will know when I see and list at that time.

I will say this: I just copied and pasted the list, and it was 183 pages long. I will paste how many pages I have before I get the actual number so we get an idea.

People with unnamed fields will be deleted.

Metherion
 
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metherion

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Update. I've gone from 183 pages to 108, and of those, 34 are scientists who are possibly in the right fields and 74 pages still need to be culled.

And I'm positive that not all the poeple in the 34 pages so far are in the right field. After all, biology is a huge field. Evolution is just one part of it, and I saw very few specifically evolutionary biologists there. Ditto with organic chemistry, genetics, entomology, etc. Only parts of those fields could be considered to deal with evolution, and we don't know how many of them are in the proper parts of the fields.

And even after reading the article, I'm still not sure if these guys are against biological evolution or "metalution", the huge hairball of evolution, geology, atheistic naturalism, and God knows what else that anti-evolutionists try to make it into. At least one is specifically stated as a very strong TE.

Metherion
 
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