For Catholics only: Is this a mortal sin?

[Rising_Suns]

How about an English dictionary ? disorder is not the same as matter.

Just becaue the word gravely is in front of a word does not mean the word after it automatically mean matter,

see ? They didn't say grave matter they said gravely disordered.

difference.


And, smartie, it doesn't mean perfectly fine to do either.

It means, gravely disordered.

It does not not mortal sin either.

It means screwed up, missed the mark, it does not mean going to hell

see ?

If the Church uses "grave" as a qualifier for a sin, it means just that; it is grave. And masturbation most certainly falls into this category.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

If the Church uses "grave" as a qualifier for a sin, it means just that; it is grave. And masturbation most certainly falls into this category.

This is not a suble thing, The Church calls mastrubation a gravely disordered action not a grave matter.

This is a difference of some import.

It then goes not to list a bunch of reason to midigate the sin itself.

This certainly suggests to me that while hardly a virtue, One is on troubled ground to automatically call masturbation a sin in all cases.

 

[Rising_Suns]

This is not a suble thing, The Church calls mastrubation a gravely disordered action not a grave matter.

This is a difference of some import.

It then goes not to list a bunch of reason to midigate the sin itself.

This certainly suggests to me that while hardly a virtue, One is on troubled ground to automatically call masturbation a sin in all cases.

No.

In addition to using the word "grave" as a qualifier, the Catechism also uses the word "disordered" to describe anything that is inherently evil. There is simply no loophole to be found in this. Masturbation is always a sin. And as such, we should be seeking to clense this sin from our lives.

You must realize, Cosmic, when you try to rationalize away sin in your arguments, you can cause others to faulter. And by doing so you will bring a much greater judgement upon yousef in the end.

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Charlie--

If there is full consent and full knowledge, then masturbation is a mortal sin. It is most certainly grave matter. If something is disordered, then it is a subject or matter for concern. A grave disorder is a grave matter. Matter is a synonym of the word subject, and a disorder is indeed a subject and a matter.

Maturbation isn't always a mortal sin. But it is always grave matter.

Rob

 

[Atomagenesis]

Charlie,

I think you need to seriously re-evaluate your obedience to the magisterium and your justification of this discustingly evil sin. I have never seen a Catholic try and defend masturbation so obstinately, it is quite sad.

Pax Christi.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

No.

In addition to using the word "grave" as a qualifier, the Catechism also uses the word "disordered" to describe anything that is inherently evil. There is simply no loophole to be found in this. Masturbation is always a sin. And as such, we should be seeking to clense this sin from our lives.

You must realize, Cosmic, when you try to rationalize away sin in your arguments, you can cause others to faulter. And by doing so you will bring a much greater judgement upon yousef in the end.

Blessings,

-Davide

You know, I'm the one reading the documents and presenting what the say openly and with a as neutral and easy to understand intereptation as I am capable.

You're the one twisting disordered into itherently evil

Whose doing the rationalizing here ? You need to watch your arguments as well, I was taught that spinnng a doctrine was a issue no matter which you spin it.


And masturbation may always be a sin, but not always a mortal one.

..And that is the only point I been making.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

And masturbation may always be a sin, but not always a mortal one.

..And that is the only point I been making.

You're exactly right. Mortal sin requires full knowledge, full consent and grave matter.

Often this sin, and many other grave sins, may not meet one or both of the first two requirements. It is, however, always grave matter.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Charlie--

If there is full consent and full knowledge, then masturbation is a mortal sin. It is most certainly grave matter. If something is disordered, then it is a subject or matter for concern. A grave disorder is a grave matter. Matter is a synonym of the word subject, and a disorder is indeed a subject and a matter.

Maturbation isn't always a mortal sin. But it is always grave matter.

Rob

No, I disagree, its a grave disorder. That what it says.

I love you logic btw, I have the word grave and I can get to the work matter in 11 word and 1 and a half sentenses: Therefore we have a mortal sin.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I love you logic btw, I have the word grave and I can get to the work matter in 11 word and 1 and a half sentenses: Therefore we have a mortal sin.

Thank you.

I explicitly said that it isn't always a mortal sin. Rather it is always grave matter.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Charlie,

I think you need to seriously re-evaluate your obedience to the magisterium and your justification of this discustingly evil sin. I have never seen a Catholic try and defend masturbation so obstinately, it is quite sad.

Pax Christi.

Do you actually read my posts or do just sort of follow along with the crowd ?

I haven't defended masturbation for on syllibus on this thread.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Charlie...If masturbation were not ever grave matter, then it would never be a mortal sin. The gravity of the matter is not affected by the consent and the knowledge...so under what circumstances is masturbation grave matter and why does this make it different from other circumstances?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Charlie...If masturbation were not ever grave matter, then it would never be a mortal sin. The gravity of the matter is not affected by the consent and the knowledge...so under what circumstances is masturbation grave matter and why does this make it different from other circumstances?

Thats simple untrue. Stealing may or may not be a grave matter, (I've been drinking and I'm having trouble coming up with another example, sorry)

Oh, drinking, theres one: maybe it not a sin, maybe its a venial sin, maybe its mortal.

Which its is is sort situationally dependent, and partial dependent on whether a grave matter is invovled.

The chruch itself give a list of circumstances that need to taken into account that would midiagte the practice, so why the beef this always being mortal ?

I have a theory but no one really cares, so I won't go into it.

 

[pax]

From the good old Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 1285. Why are sins of impurity the most dangerous?

A. Sins of impurity are the most dangerous:

1. Because they have the most numerous temptations;
2. Because, if deliberate, they are always mortal, and
3. Because, more than other sins, they lead to the loss of faith.

All sins against chastity are grave matter. This is why I believe Our Lady at Fatima told the children that more souls go to Hell because of impurity than any other sin. My confessor even went so far as to say accomodating lustful thoughts and deliberately consenting to them can be a mortal sin. Even though one may argue that because certain sins against impurity don't involve other people, they do lead to a warped understanding of the gift of sexuality God has given to us.


While masturbation may be one of the more common sins, that does not excuse the Church from teaching that it is intrinsically disordered. Truth is not subject to the will of the masses. It is a beatable sin, however. All too often people get frustrated by this one particular sin and start to give up. Purity is a gift from God, but we need to ask for it ande really want it. I think Augustine said before his conversion, "O God give me chastity...but not yet." Half-heartedness won't suffice in the battle for purity. It's all or nothing.

 

[pax]

The chruch itself give a list of circumstances that need to taken into account that would midiagte the practice, so why the beef this always being mortal ?

Just because there's a list of mitigating factors doesn't necessarily mean they apply in every situation. It can be very easy for someone who commits this sin to say, "It's a habit so I don't have full consent" and convince themselves that little or no sin is committed. With a sin of this nature, it's probably best to go to confession anyway even if you don't believe full consent exists because it is so easy to deceive yourself.

 

[marciadietrich]

I meant that I don't see how God would care about somebody masturbating as much as He would somebody raping a girl, which is a horrid sin, much more horrible than masturbating.

You are right in that. It is worse (of course it is!), it is a greater violation because it also attacks another person physically. Just as it is worse to kill than it is to steal something. That is in the Catechism, there are grades of sin even within the mortal category, within the Ten Commandments, even if two sins were both potentially mortal depending on the circumstances.

Masturbation can be a mortal sin IF you fulfill the requirements. But the Catechism shows that there are factors that can lessen your culpability especially if you are young or you had done it a long time not realizing it was wrong (habit). You are asked to make an honest effort to change, to be accountable by making a confession when you go wrong, and just keep in touch with your priest because he is there to not just absolve but also advise you.

Don't stress yourself either, don't kick yourself when you fail, just acknowledge you've done wrong and resolve to do better with God's grace.

Marcia

 

[InnerPhyre]

Nothing like a good ol' masturbation thread to get the whole forum into a frenzy. I think arguing about this is a form of masturbation in itself.

 

[marciadietrich]

I think arguing about this is a form of masturbation in itself.

lol IP

 

[LongingForLight]

What if someone starts dating someone and uses masturbation so that they won't fornicate with the one he/she is dating? Wouldn't it be better for the person to touch than to have premarital sex?

I haven't read the entire thread, but -

Speaking from experience, masturbation makes pre-marital sex more likely and self-control less possible. If you are used to giving in to your desires, it will be harder to avoid giving in when you can hurt another person as well. Even more significantly, masturbation is often partly a game of "make-believe", where you pretend you have the real thing. And pretending you have something only makes you want it more. That's part of why people recommend you visualize yourself achieving some goal you are seeking.

I had a severe masturbation problem. I am much happier without that habit. However, I made some bad choices a few years ago - partly because after imagining having sex for so long I was extremely curious about the real thing. It lead to the most intense suffering I have been through and almost ended the relationship with the man I ultimately married. Fortunately, we knew what was important and cut the destructive part of our relationship out. Including (though this took longer) masturbation. We were married a year later. If we hadn't taken steps, we would have probably broken up within the month.

 

[Thursday]

What if someone starts dating someone and uses masturbation so that they won't fornicate with the one he/she is dating? Wouldn't it be better for the person to touch than to have premarital sex?

This should certainly never be encouraged, but the fact is that it is "better" in that it is "less worse." Premarital sex causes 2 people to sin, while masturbation is a sin for only one. I must stress that as Longing for Light said, masturbation will only make premarital sex more likely - it is a giving in to sexual intemperance. In other words, you can't really be "half-chaste." You are either chaste, or you aren't.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Nothing like a good ol' masturbation thread to get the whole forum into a frenzy. I think arguing about this is a form of masturbation in itself.

I agree, its like intellectual autoerotic self-abuse.


...And with that mental image, I need another whisky.