For Athesists

[Icystwolf]

Yes fovezer, it's hard to comprehend, that you want Christians to join in a disfunctional and irresponsible group known as the group of atheist, and accuse us for false teachings when you yourself have no firm stance on any areas in life.

Those contradictions, believe it or not, is what makes atheism such a dellusional belief....

There is no God, because one of the following millions of reasons which most contradict each other.

Christianity leads people into self righteous, and self discipline, but atheism dosen't offer any of that except confusion.

I can't see any coherent arguments so far, even the definition of an atheist is hanging on the balance, because some say there is a God, others say there isnt, others say there was a God that only created things and that was it, and another athesist spoke of God as a possibility.

Well What is it?

If you're going to lead people astray from that type of confusion, consider yourselves lost....

This lack of coherency is the main cause of confusion, and if you run out of arguments, some athesists pull off abuse tactics....

So, is there an agreement on a common stance or not?

Do you believe there could be a God or no God?

You're probably realising I'm not budging and your confusion tactics isn't working on me.....
Even atheistworld whimped out.....

 

[Arikay]

What I have realized is that you are not willing to learn and understand.

Lets try this again,

1)
•Atheism is only the lack of belief in god or no belief in god, nothing more, nothing less.
•Atheism is only the lack of belief in god or no belief in god, nothing more, nothing less.
•Atheism is only the lack of belief in god or no belief in god, nothing more, nothing less.

2)
That being said...
•Atheism is a blanket classification. The same as theist. Theists Do Not have a firm stance on anything but that there is a god. You are a theist.
•Atheism is a blanket classification. The same as theist. Theists Do Not have a firm stance on anything but that there is a god. You are a theist.
•Atheism is a blanket classification. The same as theist. Theists Do Not have a firm stance on anything but that there is a god. You are a theist.

3) I hope you are willing to learn about what atheists really, and learn to understand what we say, as its often a good thing.

 

[Icystwolf]

There we go again....

Lack of belief of god or no belief in god.

Which means, you could think there is a possibility of a God or no possibility of God.

Thats great....

I would have thought that a lack of belief in god would be a theist, because they're still believing that there could be a god.

But wait a sec, this just dosen't correspond with what other atheists have said...how can this be so?

It's not that I'm not willing to learn, but it's just that you atheists need to get your facts and members straight on something, rather than everything.......

You've contradicted yourselves so many times, that until I had to clarify these things, you just kept on trying to confuse the heck out of the Christians.

So lets start over....
What is your stance in the overall belief?
lack of belief or no belief?

 

[Arikay]

Again, there is no "members group" of atheists.


"the·ism ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(thzm)
n.

Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theist


"a·the·ist ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(th-st)
n.

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist

An atheist can believe that god is Possible, but that he does not exist.
I believe that unicorns Could be possible. Yet I do not believe in unicorns.

To expand on their definition, there are often two different types of atheists, Weak atheists and strong atheists.

A Weak atheist is someone who lacks the belief in god. Sometimes people also call it agnostic atheism.

A Strong atheist is someone who does not believe in god.

Although some debate that its not possible for someone on these forums to be a weak atheist, thats for another thread.


And as far as organization. Theism is very "disorganized" as well. How many theists do you think believe in Jesus as the saviour? Definatly not all of them.

There we go again....

Lack of belief of god or no belief in god.

Which means, you could think there is a possibility of a God or no possibility of God.

Thats great....

I would have thought that a lack of belief in god would be a theist, because they're still believing that there could be a god.

But wait a sec, this just dosen't correspond with what other atheists have said...how can this be so?

It's not that I'm not willing to learn, but it's just that you atheists need to get your facts and members straight on something, rather than everything.......

You've contradicted yourselves so many times, that until I had to clarify these things, you just kept on trying to confuse the heck out of the Christians.

So lets start over....
What is your stance in the overall belief?
lack of belief or no belief?

 

[TooCurious]

Wow, I leave for a few hours and I've got this much catching up to do!

Oh do I hear a contradiction?

No, as a matter of fact, you don’t. You may be inventing one, though.

The Big athesist that was banned specifically said:
"As soon as we rid the world of all religions, the sooner we can get on with life and technology"

Good for him.

Then he was backed up by another two atheists who agreed on that term.

Good for them.

So, what basis are you looking for? Is the atheist organisation a bit dis-organised in their thoughts, ideas and concepts...that contradict each other, and blame in on Christians again?

I think I know where you’re running into a problem. You believe that atheists are, in fact, some coherent organization, however “disorganized,” that requires all its members to agree with each other on all points. When this doesn’t happen, you think they “blame it on Christians.” This is not the case. The only requisite to join the “Atheist Club” is the lack of belief in any gods. We don’t need to agree with each other on anything else, nor do we claim to. What “basis” am I looking for? A basis in reality, for your claims that:

a) Atheists aren’t interested in truth,

b) all want to “rid the world of God,” and

c) want to do away with all religions.

So let me get this straight....

Please do.

Do you agree or disagree with the statement made by "PoliticsForum" that all atheist have the motivation to rid the world of all religions?

I would have to see his statement, preferably in his own words, before I knew whether or not I agreed with it; however, if he made a sweeping generalization about the desires and motivations of all atheists, then it was probably inaccurate, especially given the fact that there are some religions that lack gods and could thus be considered atheistic.

If you agree, then you're eating your own words, if you disagree, that would mean the proud atheist "PoliticsForum" is not really an atheist at all....

Well that’s an interesting Catch-22. What a shame it’s a false dilemma. Remember, all atheists don’t have to agree with each other, and that PoliticsForum, being human, is capable of misstatements and errors. If in fact he or she made the statement you claim that he or she made, it would not mean that he or she was not an atheist, but rather that he or she was human, and thus capable of overgeneralizations and misstatements, even errors. I don’t think PoliticsForum ever claimed to be infallible, did he/she?

So whats your answer before you make another shallow move on Christians?

Is this still addressed to me? Because I’m not aware of any “shallow move” I made on Christians.

Too curious, you don't understand anymore do you?

Clearly someone here doesn’t.

The hardcore atheists in this world agreed that there exists a God, but not the God from the Bible.

Please tell me where you got this idea. Do you know the definition of atheism? Let’s break it down. The prefix “a-“ means “lacking, without.” The word “theism” means the belief in a god or gods. When you put them together, that makes atheism “lacking the belief in a god or gods.” Atheists lack belief in any gods. What you describe, therefore, is not atheism. It is theism. I don’t know where you got this idea, but it is wildly inaccurate.

So what kind of an atheist are you?

The atheistic kind.

Thats why I pulled these questions up, because the definition is so clear to me, that atheist do not believe in a God or any gods.....yet I continually hear that atheist pull out arguments that there is a God because else it's impossible for the universe to form, whilst the Biblical God is impossible.

I’ve never heard any atheist make that argument. That person may have been confused, a nonchristian theist, or simply trying to deceive you. Let me restate: atheists do not believe in ANY gods, including the biblical God.

If you can clear these confusions up, then I can finally understand the true structure of atheisim, because currently it's all over the place.

I’m glad to help. Atheism doesn’t have a “structure,” per se; its only requirement is the lack of belief in any gods. I hope I’ve helped you.

Yes fovezer, it's hard to comprehend, that you want Christians to join in a disfunctional and irresponsible group known as the group of atheist, and accuse us for false teachings when you yourself have no firm stance on any areas in life.

Contrary to what you may believe, and my facetious reference above, atheism is not a club. You don’t sign up, you don’t pay dues, and you don’t hold to any party line. The only thing that all atheists have in common is that they lack a belief in any gods. What firm stance on any areas in life do people with green eyes share? What about people born in January, what are their teachings and convictions?

Those contradictions, believe it or not, is what makes atheism such a dellusional belief....

Atheism is not a belief, delusional or otherwise. Atheism, by definition, is a LACK of belief. The people who share that lack may have other thoughts on different topics, and some may even associate those thoughts with their lack of belief, but that doesn’t weaken the position of atheism.

There is no God, because one of the following millions of reasons which most contradict each other.

“There is no God because X” is a positive claim. Some atheists choose to make positive claims. Many do not. Positive claims are not necessary to atheism. Let me explain a positive claim, so that there is no confusion:

Positive claim: “There is no such thing as God.” Requires proof.

Not a positive claim: “I see no valid reason to believe in any such thing as God, so I choose not to hold that belief.” Does not require proof. Is the sole tenet of atheism.

Christianity leads people into self righteous, and self discipline, but atheism dosen't offer any of that except confusion.

Atheism doesn’t offer confusion. Atheism offers the opportunity to make one’s own value decisions about life, without interference from any god-belief or threats allegedly made by such gods. Christianity claims to lead people into a great many good things, but it can lead some people to bad things, as well; intolerance, bigotry, hatred, closed-mindedness, and intellectual dishonesty among them. Note that I’m not religion-bashing or saying that all Christians exhibit these traits; I’m just trying to give a more balanced view of Christianity. Also note that many, many atheists are good people who help others and behave well. They simply lack the god/heaven/hell motivation that Christians have.

I can't see any coherent arguments so far, even the definition of an atheist is hanging on the balance, because some say there is a God, others say there isnt, others say there was a God that only created things and that was it, and another athesist spoke of God as a possibility.

You have just described a theist, an atheist who also makes a positive claim about the nonexistence of God, a Deist, and an intellectually honest atheist who does not believe in any gods but acknowledges the possibility, however remote, that some might exist. Realize, please, that you have just described FOUR separate worldviews. The reason for your confusion is that you think they’re all the same.

Well What is it?

What is what? What is the definition of an atheist? A person who lacks belief in any gods.

If you're going to lead people astray from that type of confusion, consider yourselves lost....

I certainly haven’t been deliberately “leading anyone astray,” and I seriously doubt that such was the intention of any of the other atheists here either. If you’re confused, I’m sorry; I’ll try to make things clearer for you.

This lack of coherency is the main cause of confusion, and if you run out of arguments, some athesists pull off abuse tactics....

So do some Christians. Ad hominem attacks are something that some people, Christian, atheist, or otherwise, will use when they run out of things to say. As far as coherency, I’m not sure I understand you.

So, is there an agreement on a common stance or not?

Yes. All atheists lack belief in any gods. That’s as much of a common agreement as you’re going to get.

Do you believe there could be a God or no God?

It’s theoretically (if very remotely) possible that such a thing as a god exists, but I do not believe this to be the case.

You're probably realising I'm not budging and your confusion tactics isn't working on me.....
Even atheistworld whimped out.....

What “confusion tactics” are these, exactly? If by “not budging,” you mean stubbornly refusing to see any other point of view or think about what others are telling you, that’s unfortunate.

There we go again....

Evidently…

Lack of belief of god or no belief in god.

Okay.

Which means, you could think there is a possibility of a God or no possibility of God.

Ah, here’s your problem. “No belief” still means “lack of belief.” “No belief” does NOT mean “active disbelief.”

Thats great....

Isn’t it?

I would have thought that a lack of belief in god would be a theist, because they're still believing that there could be a god.

They’re not believing that there may be a god; they’re simply acknowledging that they could be wrong. Theists like to throw that one at us a lot, the “If you say there’s no god, then you must know everything in the universe!” line. We don’t know everything in the universe. It’s entirely possible that we are mistaken. We just consider that possibility unlikely enough not to concern ourselves with it overmuch.



Lack of belief in god cannot possibly be theism, definitionally speaking.

But wait a sec, this just dosen't correspond with what other atheists have said...how can this be so?

Perhaps it is so because you’re misinterpreting, either accidentally, or willfully, in order to discredit the atheist position?



Or perhaps because atheists are individuals, and some take the next step and make the positive claim, “God does not exist,” while others do not. I’ll reiterate for the record, atheism does NOT mean saying, “there is no god.” Atheism means saying, “I do not hold a belief that there are any gods.”

It's not that I'm not willing to learn, but it's just that you atheists need to get your facts and members straight on something, rather than everything.......

All atheists agree that they lack belief in any gods. Beyond that, atheists are individuals and there’s no reason to ask them to be universally consistent on anything else. To do so would be like saying, “What do theists call their god?” You’d get a lot of different answers to that; Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, “God,” the Goddess, Vishnu, and Odin, to name a few. Why can’t you theists get your facts and members straight on something? Oh, right, because you’re individuals whose opinions differ on subjects not directly germane to the fact that you’re theists.

You've contradicted yourselves so many times, that until I had to clarify these things, you just kept on trying to confuse the heck out of the Christians.

I honestly don’t think anyone’s trying to deliberately confuse anyone. I’m sorry if you’re confused. Let me try to help. What do you see as contradictions?

So lets start over....
What is your stance in the overall belief?
lack of belief or no belief?

Okay, let’s start over.



The atheist position on god-belief is lack. Atheists do not possess a belief in god. End of story.



How is lack of belief different from no belief? I think when you say “no belief,” you think it means “God does not exist.” It does not mean this. It means, “I hold no belief in the existence of any gods.” Is that clearer?



Arikay, I’d be careful about the whole “strong” and “weak” atheism thing. Personally, I’m not crazy about the terms, but I know they’re frequently used. As I understand it, a “strong atheist” does more than not believe in gods, but actively disbelieves, as in, “There is no God.” That means something more than “I don’t believe.”

 

[Arikay]

TooCurious:

Ah, yes, a good definition between the two, Weak and strong (sometimes also called soft and hard) are an inactive and an active belief.
I also do agree, about not being too fond of the two terms, as often people get stuck on them and miss the bigger points.

 

[royboy]

Can athesists question Christians without verbally abusing them?
Can they make good arguments without using assumptions?
Can they hold themselves responsible for the things they say?
Can they humble?
Can they accept that their fault is their fault?
Can they finally prove God dosen't exist, even though he does exist?
Can they actually prove the Bible God dosen't exist?

If the Bible God dosen't exist, and yet there is really a God...would he not be present in one of the religions of the world today...and if so, which is it? and why?

If athesist believe that the Bible God is not the God that exists in the universe, does that mean theres an athesist god.....

Thus, Christians have God and Jesus as Lord, Jews have God or Yaweh, Muslims have allah, Hindui have billions of gods, taoism have their ancestors as gods....etc......and now we have a new religion of Athesists whom claim there is an unknown, unacting, fully conceptualised and existance of a true god that is not God of the Bible.

Hmmmm.........

'
Can athesists question Christians without verbally abusing them?

Ofcourse we can you ****ing moron!

Can they make good arguments without using assumptions?

In a lot of arguments we have to assume god exists, so that takes away half our arsenal.

Can they humble?

Yes I'm sure a few atheists have humbled some christians in their time here.

Can they accept that their fault is their fault?

It's not our fault, it's the devil's!

Can they finally prove God dosen't exist, even though he does exist?

Can you finally prove he does exist even though he doesn't exist?

Can they actually prove the Bible God dosen't exist?

Can you actually prove the bible god does exist?


If the Bible God dosen't exist, and yet there is really a God...would he not be present in one of the religions of the world today...and if so, which is it? and why?

Yes, he is present in islam. What is my proof? Look at the trees, and the birds, and the bees, isn't that proof that the islamic god exists? How else do you explain how we got here, through apes? It was the islamic god!

They also have really old texts that say so. People have died in its name. My friends and family are islamic and why would they lie. Our country is run by islamic people, why would they lie? But most importantly, because the people who believe in islam, say so.


If athesist believe that the Bible God is not the God that exists in the universe, does that mean theres an athesist god.....

Yes. He told our ancestors a long time ago and they wrote a book about it. He didn't tell you or your ancestors because he delegated our people to tell you heathens the truth. So while we try our best to let you know the ways of our lord, if you don't come over to our side, all we can do is pray for you.


Thus, Christians have God and Jesus as Lord, Jews have God or Yaweh, Muslims have allah, Hindui have billions of gods, taoism have their ancestors as gods....etc......and now we have a new religion of Athesists whom claim there is an unknown, unacting, fully conceptualised and existance of a true god that is not God of the Bible.

Yes, we name him 'the shy one', for his reluctence to let us know he exists. So while he may have absolutely no affect on our lives on earth, we always like to leave a door open incase he might ever want to say hi, or send us into everlasting damnation. Either one.


Hmmmm......

mmmmmmmmmmm, donuts'





views implied may or may not be my views.

 

[Judilyn]

'
Can athesists question Christians without verbally abusing them?

Ofcourse we can you ****ing moron!

Can they make good arguments without using assumptions?

In a lot of arguments we have to assume god exists, so that takes away half our arsenal.

Can they humble?

Yes I'm sure a few atheists have humbled some christians in their time here.

Can they accept that their fault is their fault?

It's not our fault, it's the devil's!

Can they finally prove God dosen't exist, even though he does exist?

Can you finally prove he does exist even though he doesn't exist?

Can they actually prove the Bible God dosen't exist?

Can you actually prove the bible god does exist?


If the Bible God dosen't exist, and yet there is really a God...would he not be present in one of the religions of the world today...and if so, which is it? and why?

Yes, he is present in islam. What is my proof? Look at the trees, and the birds, and the bees, isn't that proof that the islamic god exists? How else do you explain how we got here, through apes? It was the islamic god!

They also have really old texts that say so. People have died in its name. My friends and family are islamic and why would they lie. Our country is run by islamic people, why would they lie? But most importantly, because the people who believe in islam, say so.


If athesist believe that the Bible God is not the God that exists in the universe, does that mean theres an athesist god.....

Yes. He told our ancestors a long time ago and they wrote a book about it. He didn't tell you or your ancestors because he delegated our people to tell you heathens the truth. So while we try our best to let you know the ways of our lord, if you don't come over to our side, all we can do is pray for you.


Thus, Christians have God and Jesus as Lord, Jews have God or Yaweh, Muslims have allah, Hindui have billions of gods, taoism have their ancestors as gods....etc......and now we have a new religion of Athesists whom claim there is an unknown, unacting, fully conceptualised and existance of a true god that is not God of the Bible.

Yes, we name him 'the shy one', for his reluctence to let us know he exists. So while he may have absolutely no affect on our lives on earth, we always like to leave a door open incase he might ever want to say hi, or send us into everlasting damnation. Either one.


Hmmmm......

mmmmmmmmmmm, donuts'





views implied may or may not be my views.

There it is again, reference to satan. Do you believe he exist or were you just being sarcastic? I really could not tell since the whole letter had a sarcastic undertone.

If someone could clear this up for me it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Judilyn]

There it is again, reference to satan. Do you believe he exist or were you just being sarcastic? I really could not tell since the whole letter had a sarcastic undertone.

If someone could clear this up for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for quoting the whole letter back. I'm new around here and still have not figured out how to quote only part of a message.

 

[Icystwolf]

If atheism lacks structure, that would mean that it's unreliable.

It's as simple as that, you admitted to it, theres no coherency and though you might think it's a strength that all Christians must take on each atheist because each has different stances, but in actual fact your leading people astray with proof that is totally unfounded, immature unlike the Bible that has taken over 6000 years to mature it's teachings, and though you tell me you are responsible for your words, in action your not.

When I said action, was that an assumption?

Oh no, thats right, been there and done that, and I'm not too happy with atheists or even being one....

Theres no point in telling me definitions, because I know them all. But what I'm trying to do is make you reflect on your own words, and see how pointless it is. You spend your life, wanting people to find the truth, which is a good thing, yet when the person you pulled out of Christianity, dies or does something bad to themselves because you pulled them out of a happy and stable life of being a Christian...doesn't that make you cry?

I think it's sad for something like that to happen, it's happened to me, and worst of all, my best friend....thats why I know Atheism is NEVER the answer. I'm happier being a Christian, and being a strong one at it makes me feel good.

God exists, it's just that you people neglect him, and want him to do miracles for you.

Just look at yourselves, I have reduced your beliefs in a matter of days. And your not serious about life, and neither are you serious about other peoples lives...

There are other reasons why I'm a Christian, but spend some time wondering, why I would become a Christian and be happy about myself and my relationship with God, than with people.

I know I don't have much to lose in life, but even if I had a lot, I know that is shouldn't affect me at all.

I'm much happier to think about God and Jesus, than to constantly think about money, income, possessions...etc...it's not worth worrying about. Only God can teach us that.

Now the mystery has been revealed, what are your comments?

 

[royboy]

There it is again, reference to satan. Do you believe he exist or were you just being sarcastic? I really could not tell since the whole letter had a sarcastic undertone.

If someone could clear this up for me it would be greatly appreciated.

I have not 'seen' any evidence for his existence. So I can neither say whether he is real or made up.

If he is real, he might be controlling me. "The smartest trick the devil ever pulled, was convincing the world he did not exist."

 

[royboy]

If atheism lacks structure, that would mean that it's unreliable.

It's as simple as that, you admitted to it, theres no coherency and though you might think it's a strength that all Christians must take on each atheist because each has different stances, but in actual fact your leading people astray with proof that is totally unfounded, immature unlike the Bible that has taken over 6000 years to mature it's teachings, and though you tell me you are responsible for your words, in action your not.

When I said action, was that an assumption?

Oh no, thats right, been there and done that, and I'm not too happy with atheists or even being one....

Theres no point in telling me definitions, because I know them all. But what I'm trying to do is make you reflect on your own words, and see how pointless it is. You spend your life, wanting people to find the truth, which is a good thing, yet when the person you pulled out of Christianity, dies or does something bad to themselves because you pulled them out of a happy and stable life of being a Christian...doesn't that make you cry?

I think it's sad for something like that to happen, it's happened to me, and worst of all, my best friend....thats why I know Atheism is NEVER the answer. I'm happier being a Christian, and being a strong one at it makes me feel good.

God exists, it's just that you people neglect him, and want him to do miracles for you.

Just look at yourselves, I have reduced your beliefs in a matter of days. And your not serious about life, and neither are you serious about other peoples lives...

There are other reasons why I'm a Christian, but spend some time wondering, why I would become a Christian and be happy about myself and my relationship with God, than with people.

I know I don't have much to lose in life, but even if I had a lot, I know that is shouldn't affect me at all.

I'm much happier to think about God and Jesus, than to constantly think about money, income, possessions...etc...it's not worth worrying about. Only God can teach us that.

Now the mystery has been revealed, what are your comments?

If atheism lacks structure, that would mean that it's unreliable.

Atheists have structure in human law and human cultural morals which may overlap and share similarities with bible law. Likewise, christian structure also overlaps and shares similarities with the morals and laws of other cultures.


Theres no point in telling me definitions, because I know them all. But what I'm trying to do is make you reflect on your own words, and see how pointless it is. You spend your life, wanting people to find the truth, which is a good thing, yet when the person you pulled out of Christianity, dies or does something bad to themselves because you pulled them out of a happy and stable life of being a Christian...doesn't that make you cry?

If christianity is the only thing keeping a person from killing himself, I would not want that person to lose christianity. If the only thing keeping a person from killing himself is a security blanket, I would not want that person to lose the security blanket either.

I think it's sad for something like that to happen, it's happened to me, and worst of all, my best friend....thats why I know Atheism is NEVER the answer. I'm happier being a Christian, and being a strong one at it makes me feel good.

As I know it, atheism isn't a religion. Who went and told you that atheism is suppose to be the answer (seriously, where did you get this idea)? If it makes you happy then keep being a christian. Just keep in mind that other people have, and will continue to have fulfilling lives in other religions or without a religion at all.

God exists, it's just that you people neglect him, and want him to do miracles for you.

If his power is so great, then why doesn't he end suffering? Oh but if you pray really hard he helps people here and there? It's like the parable of rich person who had much, but gave little, as compared to the poor person who had little, but gave all. Your god is like the rich person in that parable.


Just look at yourselves, I have reduced your beliefs in a matter of days.

Bravo

And your not serious about life, and neither are you serious about other peoples lives...

What are we, curing cancer on-line here? I don't speak for everybody, but if you come to me with a specific case of hardship of anykind, I'll be sympathetic and humbled. But if we are going to discuss ideals, christian morality and such, things like war, 9/11, crusades are going to be brought up.

There are other reasons why I'm a Christian, but spend some time wondering, why I would become a Christian and be happy about myself and my relationship with God, than with people.

The same applies to atheists, muslims, hindus, buddhists.



I know I don't have much to lose in life, but even if I had a lot, I know that is shouldn't affect me at all.

I'm much happier to think about God and Jesus, than to constantly think about money, income, possessions...etc...it's not worth worrying about. Only God can teach us that.

Now the mystery has been revealed, what are your comments

If christianity brings hope, comfort, a sense of belonging, etc., then I don't think anyone grudges you because of that.

Just keep in mind that hindus, muslims, buddhists, and non-religious people, can be just as fulfilled in their lives.

 

[Icystwolf]

Oh why dosen't he end all suffering?

Who is the cause of all suffereing? We are!

You have to realise that all suffering is because of man kind....God is letting us have a chance of fixing it...but we're not.

I'm not using Christianity as a cover blanket, what keeps me happy is that I can move on with life, enjoy freedom and stop thinking about my worries. If you understood the Bible, you would realise that if you didn't experience the freedom from your local church, then more likely that you're being preached the wrong message.

I for one, did not choose God just to keep me happy, but he chose me because I wanted the truth. When I turned away from God, I was still searching for the truth, and God led me back to him by himself and no one else. I had heaps of theories that even older atheists praised... but the more I looked into it, the more I realised God has total control of all things.

There are heaps of aspects of this world that lie in patterns, which clearly point to some spiritual works. The phrase "history repeats itself" became so serious...that there was no other explanation but there exists a spiritual kingdom controlling out world.

To be honest with you, I have heaps of proof and ideas that are so much deeper than what I'm hearing. But I urge you, go deeper with it, keep finding the truth and I can guarentee you that the Bible God is Real.

Heres one question that I used on Christians, "Why didn't God send Jesus down from the beginning.....and if Jesus can go up and down from Heaven, why dosen't he do it now? That way all our problems are solved?"

I have the answer for that one, but your not going to like it. It requires a lot of understanding, and eventually it will lead you back to Christianity....but if you don't want to become a Christian, then I suggest you to not find the truth about it. If you want a challenge then do it...

It all comes down to, the definition of life...


I have another hundred, and it wasn't the one question that led me back to God, it was heaps of thinking and theorising things....and the truth came out what I didn't want to hear......God is real, and HE is who He is, the God of the Bible!

 

[Icystwolf]

But I can predict that I will continue to debate atheist, because it's not really that convincing, but I know your already fearing the possibility of becoming a Christian....just like myself.

Strange, no one brainwashed me whilst I denied Jesus as my Lord.

But Atheism has made my relationship with God a lot stronger than if I had not been departed. Made me think too on important issues in life.

I suppose atheism had it good bits, but overall God had his hand in my life the whole time....

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Can athesists question Christians without verbally abusing them?

Yes, but apparently you can't. In this thread alone you've described atheists as irresponsible, delusional, and dysfunctional for really no reason but to insult.

Can they make good arguments without using assumptions?

Strictly speaking, there are always going to be some degree of base assumptions.

Can they hold themselves responsible for the things they say?

Atheists hold themselves more responsible for their words and actions than theists, as I've learned from my interactions here.

Can they humble?

Yes.

Can they accept that their fault is their fault?

Atheists hold themselves more responsible for their words and actions than theists, as I've learned from my interactions here.

Can they finally prove God dosen't exist, even though he does exist?
Can they actually prove the Bible God dosen't exist?

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that God exists. Simply saying "even though he does exist" doesn't cut it and you have in no way demonstrated that to be true. Your goal apparently was to ask a b.s. loaded question.

If the Bible God dosen't exist, and yet there is really a God...would he not be present in one of the religions of the world today...and if so, which is it? and why?

It certainly looks unlikely that any of the world's religions throughout history and at present have it right. The existence of an apathetic god or a sadistic god would be more likely than the existence of the Christian god. However, you haven't even demonstrated that any god exists, much less that it's one god and not many, and most importantly you have not demonstrated that the Christian god exists.

If athesist believe that the Bible God is not the God that exists in the universe, does that mean theres an athesist god.....

Of course it doesn't.

and now we have a new religion of Athesists whom claim there is an unknown, unacting, fully conceptualised and existance of a true god that is not God of the Bible.

Hmmmm.........

I think you're being dishonest. Either that or you don't understand what the word "atheist" means, which might not be surprising given your inability to spell the word. If atheists believed in a god, they wouldn't be atheists, now, would they?

If you don't want people to get irritated with you and actually have a serious discussion, then cut out the hypocrisy, flaming, and loaded questions. But somehow I don't think your point here is to have a serious discussion.

 

[royboy]

Oh why dosen't he end all suffering?

Who is the cause of all suffereing? We are!

You have to realise that all suffering is because of man kind....God is letting us have a chance of fixing it...but we're not.

I'm not using Christianity as a cover blanket, what keeps me happy is that I can move on with life, enjoy freedom and stop thinking about my worries. If you understood the Bible, you would realise that if you didn't experience the freedom from your local church, then more likely that you're being preached the wrong message.

I for one, did not choose God just to keep me happy, but he chose me because I wanted the truth. When I turned away from God, I was still searching for the truth, and God led me back to him by himself and no one else. I had heaps of theories that even older atheists praised... but the more I looked into it, the more I realised God has total control of all things.

There are heaps of aspects of this world that lie in patterns, which clearly point to some spiritual works. The phrase "history repeats itself" became so serious...that there was no other explanation but there exists a spiritual kingdom controlling out world.

To be honest with you, I have heaps of proof and ideas that are so much deeper than what I'm hearing. But I urge you, go deeper with it, keep finding the truth and I can guarentee you that the Bible God is Real.

Heres one question that I used on Christians, "Why didn't God send Jesus down from the beginning.....and if Jesus can go up and down from Heaven, why dosen't he do it now? That way all our problems are solved?"

I have the answer for that one, but your not going to like it. It requires a lot of understanding, and eventually it will lead you back to Christianity....but if you don't want to become a Christian, then I suggest you to not find the truth about it. If you want a challenge then do it...

It all comes down to, the definition of life...


I have another hundred, and it wasn't the one question that led me back to God, it was heaps of thinking and theorising things....and the truth came out what I didn't want to hear......God is real, and HE is who He is, the God of the Bible!

Oh why dosen't he end all suffering? Who is the cause of all suffereing? We are!
You have to realise that all suffering is because of man kind....God is letting us have a chance of fixing it...but we're not.

I thought bad things happen because of the devil? So why doesn't god get rid of the devil?

This chance that he gives us to fix it is obviously not big enough because humans have never been without suffering. Obviously he needs to improve this crumb that you say he throws down to us.

If it is our fault we suffer, why doesn't god just be the bigger person and help us out instead of being so spiteful? He obviously is infallible, so to hold our mortal errors against us would just be petty.


I for one, did not choose God just to keep me happy, but he chose me because I wanted the truth. When I turned away from God, I was still searching for the truth, and God led me back to him by himself and no one else.

Excellant. So all atheists can turn their back on god and take heart in the fact that god will come and lead them back by himself. I'll just put my feet up and wait till then. This is how I always thought the shepard should function. The shepard doesn't spite the sheep for wondering away like so many christians have said. The shepard brings back the sheep himself. Then eats him.

I had heaps of theories that even older atheists praised...

I'm jealous. Where's my praise?


I have the answer for that one, but your not going to like it. It requires a lot of understanding, and eventually it will lead you back to Christianity....but if you don't want to become a Christian, then I suggest you to not find the truth about it. If you want a challenge then do it...

It all comes down to, the definition of life...

There's only one definition?


I have another hundred, and it wasn't the one question that led me back to God, it was heaps of thinking and theorising things....and the truth came out what I didn't want to hear......God is real, and HE is who He is, the God of the Bible.

You've got me on the edge of my seat. What is this truth that you didn't want to hear?






btw much respect for enduring the nonsense that accompanies my points.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

And your post here illustrates exactly why you aren't here for serious discussion. You're here to attack atheists.

Oh no, thats right, been there and done that, and I'm not too happy with atheists or even being one....

[...]

Just look at yourselves, I have reduced your beliefs in a matter of days.

OH REALLY?!? How have you actually done that? All you've done is insult, expose your own ignorance on a variety of subjects, made blanket generalizations that are not apparent in reality, and MOST IMPORTANTLY you have not demonstrated that your particular god exists much less any god at all.

In order to demonstrate that atheism is wrong you have to actually demonstrate that god exists. Have you done that? Not even close. Spewing insults and ignorance isn't "reducing" anyone's "beliefs."

Theres no point in telling me definitions, because I know them all.

You evidently don't even know what atheism means and yet you're trying to argue it. So you don't know them all. Your arrogance is astounding.

God exists, it's just that you people neglect him, and want him to do miracles for you.

Stop making empty assertions and telling lies. Put up or shut up.

And your not serious about life, and neither are you serious about other peoples lives...

This is what is called a "flame" and is against the forum rules. It's also what I call utter b.s. because that's exactly what it is.

 

[TooCurious]

If atheism lacks structure, that would mean that it's unreliable.

That would be true, if atheism were a belief system. However, atheism is simply a state of being, with only one qualifying factor: the lack of belief in any gods. I think the problem here is that you’re trying to turn atheism into a religion. If it were a religion, it would need some structure (in your opinion) in order to be “reliable.” However, since it isn’t, it doesn’t.

It's as simple as that, you admitted to it, theres no coherency and though you might think it's a strength that all Christians must take on each atheist because each has different stances, but in actual fact your leading people astray with proof that is totally unfounded, immature unlike the Bible that has taken over 6000 years to mature it's teachings, and though you tell me you are responsible for your words, in action your not.

There’s coherency on the only level important to atheism: that atheists lack belief in gods. Despite what you may think, atheism isn’t out to get into competition with Christianity. Some atheists like to argue with Christians; some Christians like to argue with atheists. That doesn’t mean that the goal of atheism is to disprove Christianity. Atheism has no goals, as such. “In actual fact,” atheism needs no proof. Theists are the ones making the positive claim, and as such the burden of proof rests on their shoulders.

I see you’re invoking the Appeal to Tradition fallacy. In case you’re not familiar, that’s the one that goes:

1) X is old or traditional.

2) Therefore X is correct or better.

I’d like to point you to a site that lists and describes various logical fallacies, http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ , in the hope that you will be able to structure your arguments better in the future.

Therefore, even though the Bible is old, atheists do not consider it sufficiently reliable or adequate proof for the existence of a deity. Also bear in mind that not all atheists are out to proselytize, or to convince people that their religion is a sham. Many are content to simply live and let live, unless religion is inflicted on them. And the allegation about “not being responsible” is completely unfounded.

When I said action, was that an assumption?

Probably.

Oh no, thats right, been there and done that, and I'm not too happy with atheists or even being one....

Well that’s your choice, and congratulations on making it. I still don’t understand all this hostility toward atheists.

Theres no point in telling me definitions, because I know them all. But what I'm trying to do is make you reflect on your own words, and see how pointless it is. You spend your life, wanting people to find the truth, which is a good thing, yet when the person you pulled out of Christianity, dies or does something bad to themselves because you pulled them out of a happy and stable life of being a Christian...doesn't that make you cry?

You seem to believe that I mindlessly parrot some kind of “atheist doctrine” without really understanding what I’m saying. Nothing could be further from the truth. It may be “pointless” to try to argue the matter with you, since you seem so unwilling to hear and understand what I’m saying, but atheism itself isn’t pointless by any means. Again, atheists don’t “spend their lives” proselytizing. We’re not out there to “witness” for atheism. We don’t go around trying to “pull people out of Christianity.” (When I say we, I mean atheism in general; I make no claims of speaking for specific atheists. We’re not a monolithic organization, after all.) In the event that someone were to come to the conclusion that atheism made sense because of things I said, I would be happy for and supportive of them, but that’s not my goal in life.

You seem to be under the impression that Christianity makes people live stable and peaceful lives, and that somehow atheism makes people wild, disrespectful, and criminal. This idea is so wildly inaccurate as to be absurd. Atheism makes people responsible for their own lives and actions, without the “get out of jail free card” of forgiveness and salvation. If someone “does something bad to themselves,” it is wildly unlikely that it was because of atheism. Remember, we’re not forcing people to conform to a strict doctrine and make them think they’re horrible and evil if they don’t. I would certainly be sad if any friend of mine died or “did something bad to themselves,” but I question your assertion that such an action would stem from their “being pulled out of the happy and stable life of being a Christian.” In fact, I find such an allegation insulting.

I think it's sad for something like that to happen, it's happened to me, and worst of all, my best friend....thats why I know Atheism is NEVER the answer. I'm happier being a Christian, and being a strong one at it makes me feel good.

If bad things have happened to you in your life, you have my sympathy. I’m sorry that you have chosen to blame those bad things on atheism. I’m glad that your current beliefs make you feel good. I just wish you would recognize that those beliefs aren’t the One True Way that will make everybody happy.

God exists, it's just that you people neglect him, and want him to do miracles for you.

That’s certainly your opinion. However, it’s also a baseless assertion and a bad place from which to start a logical argument. Atheists don’t “neglect” god because he doesn’t exist (as far as we can determine). We don’t want anyone to do “miracles” for us; we just wish that Christians would stop accusing us of all the horrible things that you’ve been saying about us and let us lead our lives without your religion interfering.

Just look at yourselves, I have reduced your beliefs in a matter of days. And your not serious about life, and neither are you serious about other peoples lives...

I’ll say it again. ATHEISM PROFESSES NO BELIEFS. Atheism has one qualifying factor: the lack of belief in any gods. That’s pretty easy to “reduce,” because it’s already in its simplest form. What would you prefer, elaborate incantations and rituals? A list of rules and regulations for atheists to follow? Why should we have any of that? Why can’t we lead our lives according to our own consciences and cherish our individuality?

Now you make a rather serious and completely unfounded allegation: Atheists aren’t serious about their lives, or those of other people? On what, exactly, do you base that bit of tripe? Do you have any idea how insulting you sound? I’m quite serious about my life, and the lives of those that I care about. I’m so serious about them, in fact, that I choose not to put my fate and theirs into the hands of some imaginary, unverifiable entity who, according to the book that professes his existence, has been shown to be fickle, spiteful, barbaric, sadistic, and mentally-unbalanced. This, at least, is how I interpret the god described in the bible, through his words and actions.

There are other reasons why I'm a Christian, but spend some time wondering, why I would become a Christian and be happy about myself and my relationship with God, than with people.

Okay. Hmm, why would I become a Christian and be happy about myself (which I already am) and about my relationship with my imaginary friend, who, to be honest, is a little “odd,” instead of cherishing my relationships with my fellow human beings and the hope that I have for humanity? Imaginary friend, relationships with people and hope for humanity. Gee, I don’t know why I would become a Christian again. I guess I won’t.

I know I don't have much to lose in life, but even if I had a lot, I know that is shouldn't affect me at all.

Good. Life decisions should be based around principles, not around social status or material possessions.

I'm much happier to think about God and Jesus, than to constantly think about money, income, possessions...etc...it's not worth worrying about. Only God can teach us that.

I’m glad you’re happy, and that you have something to believe in that lets you put all your stress and difficult choices in someone else’s hands. I will, however, question the proposition that only God can teach people to value relationships and ideals more than material possessions. That really is an arrogant and baseless assumption.

Now the mystery has been revealed, what are your comments?

Which “mystery” was that, exactly? The “What Icystwolf really thinks about atheists” mystery? My comments are above. I hope you learn something from them. I doubt it, though. You initially (mis)represented yourself as a Christian confused about what atheists think, and I tried to help you to understand. Now, you have revealed yourself as a rude, hateful person with nothing better to do than to baselessly flame people. Is this what your god tells you do to?



Disclaimer to Christians: If my comments about Christianity come off as a little harsh, it was not my intention to offend. I was merely trying to illustrate what it feels like for an atheist to be told that God is the only answer and her life is a lie and that she’s a horrible person.

If christianity is the only thing keeping a person from killing himself, I would not want that person to lose christianity. If the only thing keeping a person from killing himself is a security blanket, I would not want that person to lose the security blanket either.

Well said, royboy!

But I can predict that I will continue to debate atheist, because it's not really that convincing, but I know your already fearing the possibility of becoming a Christian....just like myself.

Atheism doesn’t have to be convincing; theism just has to be unconvincing, which in my opinion, it is. Please understand, I don’t “fear” becoming Christian. I was Christian once. It wasn’t the most traumatically horrible thing in my life, but it didn’t have a lot going for it, either. I’m happier as an atheist. Why is it so hard for you to understand and respect that?

Strange, no one brainwashed me whilst I denied Jesus as my Lord.

What is this supposed to signify? I don’t understand your point.

But Atheism has made my relationship with God a lot stronger than if I had not been departed. Made me think too on important issues in life.

I’m glad atheism made you think. That’s kind of the idea. I disagree with your conclusions, but I respect your right to hold to them. Can I and other atheists get the same respect from you?

I suppose atheism had it good bits, but overall God had his hand in my life the whole time....

If it’s important for you to believe that, that’s fine. I don’t share that idea, but then, I don’t have to, do I?

If you don't want people to get irritated with you and actually have a serious discussion, then cut out the hypocrisy, flaming, and loaded questions. But somehow I don't think your point here is to have a serious discussion.

Thank you, Mechanical Bliss. I think that is on a lot of our minds, but we were just too polite to say it.

Excellant. So all atheists can turn their back on god and take heart in the fact that god will come and lead them back by himself. I'll just put my feet up and wait till then. This is how I always thought the shepard should function. The shepard doesn't spite the sheep for wondering away like so many christians have said. The shepard brings back the sheep himself. Then eats him.

You’re quickly becoming one of my favorite people around here, royboy. You have a definite knack for phrasing things!

 

[royboy]

TooCurious: "You’re quickly becoming one of my favorite people around here, royboy. You have a definite knack for phrasing things!"


There's my praise! I've been looking for that everwhere!

I'm a happy man right now TC.

 

[Blindfaith]

Forum Reminder:


[noflame]


If anyone has insulted, belittled or flamed another poster here, I suggest very strongly that you go back and edit your post(s) - that goes for believers and unbelievers alike.