for atheists

[renniks]

And there you go with that false claim again. No atheist has ever said or even implied that they won't be convinced by any evidence. The problem is that no one seems to be able to present any reliable evidence. Since no one can seem to find valid evidence why don't you see if you can find some before jumping to faulty conclusions? Many Christians think that they have evidence, but all examples that I have seen have failed under rational analysis.

But if you were given evidence, you would pass it off as coincidence, unless it was iron clad? That's not allowing for all possiblitys, it's a pre prejudiced position to take.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But if you were given evidence, you would pass it off as coincidence, unless it was iron clad? That's not allowing for all possiblitys, it's a pre prejudiced position to take.

It sounds by your questin alone that what you have for "evidence" is not reliable evidence. If "evidence" of that sort will not convince you that your religious views are wrong (that you are worshipping the wrong God for example) then it is hardly reliable evidence. For example the claims of Biblical prophesy tend to fail because many are not prophesies in the first place. Many are too vague to be of any value. And the ones that clearly failed are ignored by Christians. Which makes their claims cherry picking and failed as a result as well.

 

[Paulos23]

Matt Dillahunty's answer is a cop-out, as it ignores the possibility that the atheist is simply so closed-minded that no possible evidence would be sufficient for them.

Given how long a searched and how many religions and supernatural claims I have looked into, that is not true for me. I did not become an atheist overnight. I became an atheist over the decades.

Honestly, if there is one thing that would make me think there was a God, it is if that entity corrected their followers when they get things wrong. Not staying I would worship them, but then there would be some consistency and measurable behavior.

 

[Paulos23]

It is just that atheists choose not to believe. In other words they don't want to believe in God at all. I can't go any further with this because preaching Christianity is not the purpose of this forum.

Sorry, no. There was a time I wanted to believe, and I looked and looked. After decades of searching, I didn't find good enough reason to believe based on what I was given and what I found.

I would believe in a second if it was clear there was a God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry, no. There was a time I wanted to believe, and I looked and looked. After decades of searching, I didn't find good enough reason to believe based on what I was given and what I found.

I would believe in a second if it was clear there was a God.

My process was similar. There are probably very few atheists that willingly became atheists.

 

[renniks]

It sounds by your questin alone that what you have for "evidence" is not reliable evidence. If "evidence" of that sort will not convince you that your religious views are wrong (that you are worshipping the wrong God for example) then it is hardly reliable evidence. For example the claims of Biblical prophesy tend to fail because many are not prophesies in the first place. Many are too vague to be of any value. And the ones that clearly failed are ignored by Christians. Which makes their claims cherry picking and failed as a result as well.

You didn't answer my question. I'm not speaking of evidence I have. I'm asking what God would have to reveal to you for you to find it compelling enough to accept his existence?

 

[Paulos23]

My process was similar. There are probably very few atheists that willingly became atheists.

At least not ones that were raised in a religion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You didn't answer my question. I'm not speaking of evidence I have. I'm asking what God would have to reveal to you for you to find it compelling enough to accept his existence?

I cannot say for sure. What do you have? And as Matt Dillahunty said, if God exists he would know what it would take.

 

[Paulos23]

You didn't answer my question. I'm not speaking of evidence I have. I'm asking what God would have to reveal to you for you to find it compelling enough to accept his existence?

And that is the answer you are going to get, your God knows. We don't know because we haven't found it yet, and many of us have looked and kept an open mind.

At this point, I have come up with three ideas why I can't find evidence that God exists:

1. God is hiding/left/or just observing the universe.
2. God wants me to be an atheist.
3. God doesn't care.

None of them are stunning ideas, other than they do not conform with the idea of a loving caring God most Christians are trying to sell me. But that is what I have.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Given how long a searched and how many religions and supernatural claims I have looked into, that is not true for me. I did not become an atheist overnight. I became an atheist over the decades.

Honestly, if there is one thing that would make me think there was a God, it is if that entity corrected their followers when they get things wrong. Not staying I would worship them, but then there would be some consistency and measurable behavior.

I think this states a lot of why many are atheists as "Christians" go on and on claiming this and that while their lives don't add up. A lot of atheists are so because they got fed up with hypocrisy of so called Christians when they were trying to get a handle on what truly Christianity is about. In other words if the proof God exists is in the lives and actions of his followers then having poor examples of them is akin to looking for a reason to believe in gravity when everyone trying to prove it only wants to do so while they are in a spacesuit on the space station.
I've not been an atheist but from being a Christian in childhood I backslid due to things Christians do and say not lining up with who God truly is turned me off about Jesus. A sort of "gravity" type example would be I was born and grew up some on earth then was thrust into outer space and over time having weak to no gravity I lost focus and thinking I would never be on a large enough planet to experience gravity I gave up on believing in it.
All in all for many people it is not about intellectualism that wins them to God but the lives and love from his people that are compelling to them.
I am no great example of a Christian as I tend to be more intellectual than emotional and loving but I realize that
honesty and humility often is respected by those who are looking for truth, personally I would rather listen to a simpleton speak of simple things that loves and helps people than an arrogant intellectual that is a hypocrite. I may not garner any earth shattering knowledge but my self desire to be less arrogant and hypocritical and more caring and useful to God in it all.
As I think others have said about Ghandi.... I love your Christ but don't like your Christians. It is often hard to want to be what Jesus wants us to be when everyone else who claims to do so.... don't. I've heard some refuse to call themselves Christian because too many who do... aren't in their actions, I call myself Christian not because of my deeds and actions but because of my failing in being an example I point to Christ as the example.... not myself.
I think many atheists if they truly felt the love of God overwhelm them it would be enough, sadly too often they feel Christians despise them instead for their seemingly defiant attitude.
I've since decided that those who accept Jesus but don't want to call themselves Christian in reality either are hypocrites themselves or could be better examples of Christ and instead stepping up to show people what a Christian should be.. an example to those seeking, they cop out due to ego.
I'm a lousy Christian myself, even though I believe my knowledge of Christianity may be a lot better than most, I fall way short on loving others and it is a personal defect of mine that I will always struggle with. It is the struggle of all mankind to both find himself and come to grips with where God stands in his life and who he truly thinks God is what others say and act like God is... or what they decide about him. I think often one believes or disbelieves in God due to their own faulty information and biases and premises and in their confusion look for an example and only see infallible corrupt Christians and give up on it.
The Bible says "my people perish for lack of knowledge" and I backslid in my younger life due to lack of knowledge, I have faith now and will always believe because of knowledge but struggle with the part that knowledge has no answer for... love.
No amount of science can truly explain love, it is a quantity that exists in people that love and are loved and because of our corruption of sin and sin in others it is often nearly impossible to feel/see the love of God in
others lives when they don't love us. Those seeking God can only get there truly if they do plug love into their search pattern and if they don't find it from fellow believers in God (Christians) then they often give up on God but I believe many are hoping to find that love that is claimed to exist by Christians but aren't holding their breath.
I do wish that honest atheists would consider that their struggles ending up with them giving up on believing also in the struggles of those who do come to faith in God similarly. Some of us Christians don't get zotted by the Holy Spirit splatted our backs in a sort of euphoric trance of love and power we just sort of feel better and can't explain it but even when we do have God work in our lives often we take it for granted when he doesn't work we get disillusioned and fall away. I often have respect for people who don't want to be wishy washy and not sit on or hop back and forth over fences about God that just either says God or NOT God (atheism).
I think a lot of atheists don't want to be hypocrites but personally I think that hypocrisy isn't a Christian thing but rather a human thing that must be fought against equally by all and that Christians often figure because they are forgiven of sins if they are a hypocrite it isn't a big deal to God.. sadly though it is as Jesus himself made very strong statements about it in the Bible itself... He was MOST upset about hypocrisy so if dealing with hypocrisy is a reason for rejecting God then the only thing I can say is Jesus is on your side in rejecting it.

 

[renniks]

I cannot say for sure. What do you have? And as Matt Dillahunty said, if God exists he would know what it would take.

Lol, it's not what I have, it's what God has.
He has everything that exists.
You discount freedom of the will, then.
God knows what it would take?
What it would take is for you to be willing to accept the evidence that is literally everywhere, all day, every day.
God pours out his beauty all around us , while we tend to keep looking at screens and wondering what we should have for dinner.

 

[MIDutch]

At least not ones that were raised in a religion.

I'm guessing that the vast majority of the 7+ billion people on Earth were born into one religion or another.

 

[VirOptimus]

Lol, it's not what I have, it's what God has.
He has everything that exists.
You discount freedom of the will, then.
God knows what it would take?
What it would take is for you to be willing to accept the evidence that is literally everywhere, all day, every day.
God pours out his beauty all around us , while we tend to keep looking at screens and wondering what we should have for dinner.

You wanna preach there are subfora for that, this isnt one of them.

Weak sauce.

 

[renniks]

You wanna preach there are subfora for that, this isnt one of them.

Weak sauce.

Offended by the truth, I see.

 

[Larniavc]

Were your grandparents Christians?

Yes.

 

[VirOptimus]

Offended by the truth, I see.

I’m not offended.

I couldnt care less about your belief.

 

[Ophiolite]

What it would take is for you to be willing to accept the evidence that is literally everywhere, all day, every day.
God pours out his beauty all around us , while we tend to keep looking at screens and wondering what we should have for dinner.

The universe is a remarkable place. The formation of primordial atoms from a hot "sea" of energy is amazing. Their coalescence into stars, star clusters, galaxies, groups of galaxies and larger assemblies is astounding. The conversion of the simplest atoms into every more complex types in the heat of those stellar furnaces and the violent catastrophes of supernovae is awe inspiring. The subsequent formation of planetary systems, ranging from small rocky planets to vast giants of gas and ice is magnificent. The emergence of life on at least one such planet is astonishing. The evolution of that life from that simple common ancestor to a complex, interlocking biosphere is breathtaking. The appearance of a species complex enough to be self aware and to gradually discover the stunning elegance of its history is mind-numbingly evocative and humbling.

But nothing embedded in that panoply of wonder gives any reason to suppose this is all the consequence of any god, especially not the Christian God, other than the desire of believers to believe.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I think this states a lot of why many are atheists as "Christians" go on and on claiming this and that while their lives don't add up. A lot of atheists are so because they got fed up with hypocrisy of so called Christians when they were trying to get a handle on what truly Christianity is about. In other words if the proof God exists is in the lives and actions of his followers then having poor examples of them is akin to looking for a reason to believe in gravity when everyone trying to prove it only wants to do so while they are in a spacesuit on the space station.
I've not been an atheist but from being a Christian in childhood I backslid due to things Christians do and say not lining up with who God truly is turned me off about Jesus. A sort of "gravity" type example would be I was born and grew up some on earth then was thrust into outer space and over time having weak to no gravity I lost focus and thinking I would never be on a large enough planet to experience gravity I gave up on believing in it.
All in all for many people it is not about intellectualism that wins them to God but the lives and love from his people that are compelling to them.
I am no great example of a Christian as I tend to be more intellectual than emotional and loving but I realize that
honesty and humility often is respected by those who are looking for truth, personally I would rather listen to a simpleton speak of simple things that loves and helps people than an arrogant intellectual that is a hypocrite. I may not garner any earth shattering knowledge but my self desire to be less arrogant and hypocritical and more caring and useful to God in it all.
As I think others have said about Ghandi.... I love your Christ but don't like your Christians. It is often hard to want to be what Jesus wants us to be when everyone else who claims to do so.... don't. I've heard some refuse to call themselves Christian because too many who do... aren't in their actions, I call myself Christian not because of my deeds and actions but because of my failing in being an example I point to Christ as the example.... not myself.
I think many atheists if they truly felt the love of God overwhelm them it would be enough, sadly too often they feel Christians despise them instead for their seemingly defiant attitude.
I've since decided that those who accept Jesus but don't want to call themselves Christian in reality either are hypocrites themselves or could be better examples of Christ and instead stepping up to show people what a Christian should be.. an example to those seeking, they cop out due to ego.
I'm a lousy Christian myself, even though I believe my knowledge of Christianity may be a lot better than most, I fall way short on loving others and it is a personal defect of mine that I will always struggle with. It is the struggle of all mankind to both find himself and come to grips with where God stands in his life and who he truly thinks God is what others say and act like God is... or what they decide about him. I think often one believes or disbelieves in God due to their own faulty information and biases and premises and in their confusion look for an example and only see infallible corrupt Christians and give up on it.
The Bible says "my people perish for lack of knowledge" and I backslid in my younger life due to lack of knowledge, I have faith now and will always believe because of knowledge but struggle with the part that knowledge has no answer for... love.
No amount of science can truly explain love, it is a quantity that exists in people that love and are loved and because of our corruption of sin and sin in others it is often nearly impossible to feel/see the love of God in
others lives when they don't love us. Those seeking God can only get there truly if they do plug love into their search pattern and if they don't find it from fellow believers in God (Christians) then they often give up on God but I believe many are hoping to find that love that is claimed to exist by Christians but aren't holding their breath.
I do wish that honest atheists would consider that their struggles ending up with them giving up on believing also in the struggles of those who do come to faith in God similarly. Some of us Christians don't get zotted by the Holy Spirit splatted our backs in a sort of euphoric trance of love and power we just sort of feel better and can't explain it but even when we do have God work in our lives often we take it for granted when he doesn't work we get disillusioned and fall away. I often have respect for people who don't want to be wishy washy and not sit on or hop back and forth over fences about God that just either says God or NOT God (atheism).
I think a lot of atheists don't want to be hypocrites but personally I think that hypocrisy isn't a Christian thing but rather a human thing that must be fought against equally by all and that Christians often figure because they are forgiven of sins if they are a hypocrite it isn't a big deal to God.. sadly though it is as Jesus himself made very strong statements about it in the Bible itself... He was MOST upset about hypocrisy so if dealing with hypocrisy is a reason for rejecting God then the only thing I can say is Jesus is on your side in rejecting it.

This is all great and wonderful and while I disagree with some of it I also agree with a lot of it. And that's the thing. Atheists and Christians can agree on a lot of issues with regard to how we should treat people, right and wrong, etc. The problem is that because I'm an atheist, because I don't believe in what the Christians claim is the source for these agreements that we have. So, the only real difference between us is that belief in a god that because I lack I am condemned. And, quite frankly that is stupid. It smacks of human invention and thinking, not divine. That's why ultimately these arguments boil down to the mere existence of a god and not feelings or beliefs. Because we share a lot of those feelings and beliefs. Just not the ones that seem to render the whole of existence completely illogical, irational and inconsistent.

My go to statement with regard to the whole issue is that reality makes so much more sense when you remove gods from it. The problem of evil literally disappears with the god being removed. The way people act and the bad things that happen to people make complete sense in a godless universe. It's only when you add in this omnipotent, omnibenevolent being that nothing makes sense anymore.

 

[renniks]

The universe is a remarkable place. The formation of primordial atoms from a hot "sea" of energy is amazing. Their coalescence into stars, star clusters, galaxies, groups of galaxies and larger assemblies is astounding. The conversion of the simplest atoms into every more complex types in the heat of those stellar furnaces and the violent catastrophes of supernovae is awe inspiring. The subsequent formation of planetary systems, ranging from small rocky planets to vast giants of gas and ice is magnificent. The emergence of life on at least one such planet is astonishing. The evolution of that life from that simple common ancestor to a complex, interlocking biosphere is breathtaking. The appearance of a species complex enough to be self aware and to gradually discover the stunning elegance of its history is mind-numbingly evocative and humbling.

But nothing embedded in that panoply of wonder gives any reason to suppose this is all the consequence of any god, especially not the Christian God, other than the desire of believers to believe.

Well, I just don't have that kind of faith, then.... to believe all that just happened by blind luck with no first cause? Nope, the cause would have to show itself to me for me to believe that. And it hasn't. So I will continue to believe the cause is an all powerful being beyond comprehension.

 

[46AND2]

I think this states a lot of why many are atheists as "Christians" go on and on claiming this and that while their lives don't add up. A lot of atheists are so because they got fed up with hypocrisy of so called Christians when they were trying to get a handle on what truly Christianity is about.

I see this claim bandied about by a lot of Christians who really don't understand atheism, but try to make sense of a thought process that is completely foreign to them. I think it speaks more to the Christian's paranoia of being perceived as such. When I was a Christian, there was this constant warning that we ought not to be hypocritical lest we lead people astray.

But while it is true that many atheists observe a lot of hypocrisy within the Christian ranks, it is very rarely, if ever, a cause for their disbelief. Your (general, not specific) "sins" have no impact on my belief or disbelief.

And to be clear, I don't mean to be accusatory with all this. I understand that for many Christians it is just a process of trying to put themselves in our shoes. But you don't think about it the same way we do, and as such are incapable of that sort of empathy.



So, what would convince me?

Like others have mentioned here, I don't know. I could think of a few things which might convince me to be a deist, but a theist of a particular god is a far higher bar to clear. Any being of that sort of power is certainly capable of deceiving me, should that be his inclination. So how does one know that what you think is the Christian god is not actually a trickster god?