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For Arminians And Calvinists Do You Think This Article Is Harsh?

St_Worm2

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Hi James, I don't waste my time reading articles like this from either side anymore because after reading so many of them I realize what an utter waste of time it is. I normally don't get any further than the titles anymore.

I read over this one however because you posted it, and although less inflammatory than many it, in the end, makes no more sense than any other article of its kind I've read. The only part I found interestingly different was their attempt to paint Calvinists who don't agree with their misuse of reason, Scripture, and basic facts, as the "bad" guy as well .. :doh:

When I became a Christian, I started as an Arminian and remained in that camp in a big way for years before becoming Reformed. Dr. R C Sproul (one of the great living Reformed theologians) will tell you the same thing. He will also tell you he very much believed himself a Christian during all those years he lived as an Arminian, as will I.

Since you seem interested in understanding both sides, I recommend you study what each side has to say about itself (I realize that is not always possible because comparisons to what the other side believes are inevitable). Just try to avoid the inflammatory articles and books from either side and you should end up with a balanced understanding of both.

For the Reformed side, if you have not read Dr. Sproul's little book called, Chosen By God, that's where I (and many others) would recommend you begin your study of all things Reformed. It's available in all kinds of formats from DVD (as a teaching series) to Kindle (you can still even get a paperback copy if you'd like to .. ;)) Whether you end up believing Reformed theology or not, it is well-written and thought-provoking enough that I doubt you will be able to put it down until you've finished it (I know I couldn't).

Then read a book from the Arminian side and see what they have to say.

Yours and His,
David
 
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Biblicist

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[FONT=&quot]"Outside the Camp[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is a ministry of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sovereign Redeemer Assembly"[FONT=&quot] - by any chance, are they [FONT=&quot]maybe related to the Westboro Baptists, if they are, then [FONT=&quot]I think that the Westboro boys m[FONT=&quot]ight need to be[FONT=&quot] c[FONT=&quot]areful with who they as[FONT=&quot]sociate with.

[FONT=&quot]As for what I read in that article, [FONT=&quot]at best[FONT=&quot], I c[FONT=&quot]a[FONT=&quot]n only say that I p[FONT=&quot]itty the [FONT=&quot]poor sod who wrote the article, what an emotional and spiritual mess he[FONT=&quot] must be.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
 
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Metal Minister

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Bob Carabbio

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Both sides interest me but after reading this it sounds like this person is either.

And, of course, since "Arminians" are every bit as likely to be SAVED as Calvinist/Reformed Paradigmatics, there no sense in even bothering with his foolishness.
 
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Albion

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I didn't finish the article because I concluded soon enough that it was simply absurd, detached from the facts.

Incidentally, I would not call it an example of Hyper-Calvinism. It's just someone's impression of what Arminianism entails (and Calvinism, too), and is totally in error about it.
 
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Metal Minister

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I didn't finish the article because I concluded soon enough that it was simply absurd, detached from the facts.

Incidentally, I would not call it an example of Hyper-Calvinism. It's just someone's impression of what Arminianism entails (and Calvinism, too), and is totally in error about it.

Like I said, I just skimmed it, and saw several of the hyper-Calvinist high points.
 
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Albion

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Like I said, I just skimmed it, and saw several of the hyper-Calvinist high points.

If you feel like it, I'd be interested in you identifying those points for us. If could be that my understanding is incomplete.
 
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Metal Minister

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I went back over it Albion, and though there isn't one specific sentence or phrase that would directly name this person as a hyper-Calvinist, (I don't think they understand the subject they're discussing) it's an overall effect of what is said and how it's said. I think they're a hyper-Calvinist without realizing that they are, or the actual differences themselves...sorry I couldn't be more help...
 
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Albion

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I went back over it Albion, and though there isn't one specific sentence or phrase that would directly name this person as a hyper-Calvinist, (I don't think they understand the subject they're discussing) it's an overall effect of what is said and how it's said. I think they're a hyper-Calvinist without realizing that they are, or the actual differences themselves...sorry I couldn't be more help...

I'm in agreement with you about the article being nearly a potpourri of accusations that don't add up to anything consistent. But as for saying it's "Hyper-Calvinistic," I see a vilification of Calvinist in the article that's just as adamant as the attack upon Arminianism.

And what makes Hyper-Calvinism what it is, as I understand, is not that it's orthodox Calvinism stated more vigorously than other Calvinists might do it, but the conviction that Evangelism is pointless.
 
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Metal Minister

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I'm in agreement with you about the article being nearly a potpourri of accusations that don't add up to anything consistent. But as for saying it's "Hyper-Calvinistic," I see a vilification of Calvinist in the article that's just as adamant as the attack upon Arminianism.

And what makes Hyper-Calvinism what it is, as I understand, is not that it's orthodox Calvinism stated more vigorously than other Calvinists might do it, but the conviction that Evangelism is pointless.

There's more to it than that, and iirc, hypers don't consider non-hypers as Christians either...
 
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Albion

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There's more to it than that, and iirc, hypers don't consider non-hypers as Christians either...

Well, that's why I was asking, but I don't want to make a whole thread out of it, either, so I'll just come back to that some other time. To the best of my understanding, there's only one tiny denomination that is considered to be "Hyper-Calvinist" in its teachings and policies...and it disavows the claim that it IS Hyper-Calvinist. ;)
 
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Marvin Knox

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Christopher Adams, the writer of the article, should be looked upon with shame by any Reformed believer. He does more harm that good by far with his outlandish accusations.

Shame on him IMO.

In a similar way - Dave Hunt brings the Arminian position into disrepute. His outlandish misrepresentation of Calvinism is as shameful for the Arminian side as Adams is to the Calvinist side.

People who resort to these kinds of articles are simply not able to properly articulate their side as compared to that of the other.

If you can't do something right - don't do it at all. That goes for theology as much or more as for other endeavors.
 
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Omah1970

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[FONT=&quot]"Outside the Camp[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is a ministry of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sovereign Redeemer Assembly"[FONT=&quot] - by any chance, are they [FONT=&quot]maybe related to the Westboro Baptists, if they are, then [FONT=&quot]I think that the Westboro boys m[FONT=&quot]ight need to be[FONT=&quot] c[FONT=&quot]areful with who they as[FONT=&quot]sociate with.

[FONT=&quot]As for what I read in that article, [FONT=&quot]at best[FONT=&quot], I c[FONT=&quot]a[FONT=&quot]n only say that I p[FONT=&quot]itty the [FONT=&quot]poor sod who wrote the article, what an emotional and spiritual mess he[FONT=&quot] must be.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

This article really bothered me it reminded me of the old wars between my family at the family reunions. Half are Baptist which I am and half are Church Of God but I never would judge my family state of salvation due to Pentecostalism or Arminian beliefs they held. The only issue I ever had was the idea that Jesus was some sort of Indian giver who gives and takes away gives and takes away on a continual basis. I used to joke with my aunt who is the only Catholic in the family about how Jesus hand must continually get tired from all that erasing and writing of our names in his Book Of Life lol. This issue between the Calvinists and Arminian s has gotten so hostile. To much certainty with both groups and not enough love
 
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Albion

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Three Reasons Why Arminians Are Not Saved

Both sides interest me but after reading this it sounds like this person is either.

Having read the article again, after the passage of a month and a half, I now think that the author decided to use extreme terminology and statements mainly as an attention-getter. The actual points are much less controversial. The danger in taking that approach, as we can see from our own reactions, is that you'll get tuned out before those points can be made.
 
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bcbsr

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Three Reasons Why Arminians Are Not Saved

Both sides interest me but after reading this it sounds like this person is either.

Speaking as a non-Arminian non-Calvinist, of the three reasons given, the first is plainly false. And if one takes that to the extreme as that author does, bearing false witness against his neighbor that author is a slanderer, and since according to 1Cor 6:9,10 slanders are unsaved, that author is no saved, if indeed we apply the same judgment as that author does.

As for his second and third reasons, the same could just as well be said of Calvinism. And many more "reasons" could be given against calvinism as well as arminianism. And if we throw in Catholics, Orthodox and the like, and use the author's conclusion, seems about 80% of the "Christian" community is unsaved.
 
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rdclmn72

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As Jesus would state in other words before the different groups, "you're all wrong".
Institutions have a way of choosing an ideological course that gets them into trouble.
This is one case where they need to stop dealing in absolutes.
The truth is that humanity is predestined toward salvation, yet is contingent on individual choice.
 
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St_Worm2

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As Jesus would state in other words before the different groups, "you're all wrong" ... humanity is predestined toward salvation, yet is contingent on individual choice.

That speaks to the very heart of what Arminianism teaches so, "you're all wrong", must not include that particular soteriological system ;)

Yours and His,
David
 
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