For all that fear hell

[mkgal1]

Truly God deals with all according to the counsel of His will. And though I certainly don't declare there is still much I don't understand about the Ultimate Reconciliation of all, I still find that 'that belief' gives me a liberty to truly love those who are so easily given up on, by the majority.

That's it exactly! The fruit is freedom that it's out of our hands (convincing/warning people of their impending doom) and that it's all in His capable and loving hands.

What first convinced me (about restorative justice) was actually seeing this sort of love in action. Fr Greg Boyle loves with a Christ-like love (and there are amazing results to show for it). We will know them by their fruit.

 

[sdowney717]

That's it exactly! The fruit is freedom that it's out of our hands (convincing/warning people of their impending doom) and that it's all in His capable and loving hands.

What first convinced me (about restorative justice) was actually seeing this sort of love in action. Fr Greg Boyle loves with a Christ-like love (and there are amazing results to show for it). We will know them by their fruit.

If it is everlasting, that means without end, age enduring, from one age to the next.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

If this is an everlasting destruction, then there is no rehabilitation, hell is not temporary affliction. Those in hell all are thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end because this is where hell is thrown, so all then that are in there are along for the ride, no escape..

Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus says they do not have eternal life. But you say they do.

Of whom are we speaking?

 

[mkgal1]

If it is everlasting, that means without end, age enduring, from one age to the next.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

It can't mean all that at the same time. Either it's "age enduring" or without end....but it can't be both.

I am of the belief that Jesus was warning the Jews in Judea about the impending doom of the Destruction of Jerusalem. With that perspective, all Scripture fits together and makes a lot more sense compared to the view you're supporting.

------->When we look at historical context, we remember that Jesus clearly warned people about the coming judgement against Israel. At the beginning of Matthew 24 Jesus explicitly sets the stage for the coming destruction, warning them that even the temple will be destroyed (“not one stone will remain on another, it will all be thrown down.” V. 2) Jesus goes so far as to even tell them what the signs of the coming judgment (the end of the “age”) would look like: wars, rumors of wars, famine, earthquakes, etc. As Jesus describes this “great tribulation” with horrible persecution, he advises them that if they want to escape death at the hands of the Romans, they would need to flee to the hillsides when they see the “signs of the times” (verse 16).

This actual event and the fulfillment of Jesus’ warning came in AD70 when Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem along with her temple. Presumably, those who heeded Jesus’ warning in Matthew 24 of fleeing to the hillside would have survived the advancing destruction of the Roman army… but those who didn’t?

Well, those folks were killed. And guess what we know actually happened to their bodies? They were burned in… “hell”, just outside of Jerusalem– exactly as Jesus had warned. This makes the teachings of Jesus very practical when considering the historical and grammatical context: those who listened to him would live, and those who didn’t would end up burned in the Valley of Hinnom. While we don’t know for sure, it is highly likely that some/many of the people in the audience when Jesus warned “how will you escape going to the Valley of Hinnom?” actually ended up dead and burned in Gehenna by the Romans.~
Read more at What Jesus Talked About When He Talked About Hell

Matthew 24 – End of the World or End of an Age? | Gordon Ferguson

 

[sdowney717]

It can't mean all that at the same time. Either it's "age enduring" or without end....but it can't be both.

I am of the belief that Jesus was warning the Jews in Judea about the impending doom of the Destruction of Jerusalem. With that perspective, all Scripture fits together and makes a lot more sense compared to the view you're supporting.

------->When we look at historical context, we remember that Jesus clearly warned people about the coming judgement against Israel. At the beginning of Matthew 24 Jesus explicitly sets the stage for the coming destruction, warning them that even the temple will be destroyed (“not one stone will remain on another, it will all be thrown down.” V. 2) Jesus goes so far as to even tell them what the signs of the coming judgment (the end of the “age”) would look like: wars, rumors of wars, famine, earthquakes, etc. As Jesus describes this “great tribulation” with horrible persecution, he advises them that if they want to escape death at the hands of the Romans, they would need to flee to the hillsides when they see the “signs of the times” (verse 16).

This actual event and the fulfillment of Jesus’ warning came in AD70 when Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem along with her temple. Presumably, those who heeded Jesus’ warning in Matthew 24 of fleeing to the hillside would have survived the advancing destruction of the Roman army… but those who didn’t?

Well, those folks were killed. And guess what we know actually happened to their bodies? They were burned in… “hell”, just outside of Jerusalem– exactly as Jesus had warned. This makes the teachings of Jesus very practical when considering the historical and grammatical context: those who listened to him would live, and those who didn’t would end up burned in the Valley of Hinnom. While we don’t know for sure, it is highly likely that some/many of the people in the audience when Jesus warned “how will you escape going to the Valley of Hinnom?” actually ended up dead and burned in Gehenna by the Romans.~
Read more at What Jesus Talked About When He Talked About Hell

Age enduring, simply surviving in its current state-condition through coming ages of time without a change, so then it is an eternal status logically. Death in hell never becomes life in heaven with God, clearly those in hell are eternally separated from life with God in heaven and experience everlasting destruction. Everlasting means its conditional state lasts forever.

ev·er·last·ing
ˌevərˈlastiNG/
adjective

1. 1.
   lasting forever or for a very long time.
   "the damned would suffer everlasting torment"
   synonyms: eternal, endless, never-ending, perpetual, undying, abiding, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless
   "everlasting love"
   constant, continual, continuous, persistent, relentless, unrelieved, uninterrupted,unabating, endless, interminable, never-ending, nonstop, incessant
   "his everlasting complaints"

 

[mkgal1]

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

As I've posted before.....there can't be new life that is promised ("I am making all things new") without the death of death itself and sin to be fully eradicated.....forever. That's what I believe this is. I also am of the belief that this is the return of humanity and His creation back to the way things originally were as God had created them (very good):

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.~Rev 21:4


In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all.~Isaiah 11:6



​

 

[mkgal1]

Age enduring, simply surviving in its current state-condition through coming ages of time without a change, so then it is an eternal status logically.

And the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is said to be the end of the Jewish age----> and the coming of the Son of Man:

---->Jesus said that some of His disciples will not finish preaching through all the cities of Israel before He comes back (Matthew 10:23). Jesus said that some who were living during His time would not die before they see the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28). Jesus said that "this generation" will not pass away before all these things concerning His second coming are fulfilled (Matthew 24:34). He was talking to the people of that time and the generation of that time. He was saying that they (not us) would be witnesses to these things happening.

Jesus said that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and is destroyed that would be the time of His second coming. This already happened between 63 A.D. and 70 A.D. (seven years).

After 70 A.D. and the establishment of the Kingdom none of the ceremonial laws applied even to the Jews who had converted. All the Jewish ceremonial laws came to a permanent end.~https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140612114310-117953348-second-coming-of-christ-misunderstood

Commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist)~Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

 

[sdowney717]

And the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is said to be the end of the Jewish age----> and the coming of the Son of Man:

---->Jesus said that some of His disciples will not finish preaching through all the cities of Israel before He comes back (Matthew 10:23). Jesus said that some who were living during His time would not die before they see the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28). Jesus said that "this generation" will not pass away before all these things concerning His second coming are fulfilled (Matthew 24:34). He was talking to the people of that time and the generation of that time. He was saying that they (not us) would be witnesses to these things happening.

Jesus said that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and is destroyed that would be the time of His second coming. This already happened between 63 A.D. and 70 A.D. (seven years).

After 70 A.D. and the establishment of the Kingdom none of the ceremonial laws applied even to the Jews who had converted. All the Jewish ceremonial laws came to a permanent end.~https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140612114310-117953348-second-coming-of-christ-misunderstood

You say the second coming happened in 70 AD. That is a full preterist pov.

Consider though when He comes a second time He says.
Rev1
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye will see Him coming on the clouds even those who are in hell, did not happen in 70 AD, nor did all the earths tribes mourn on account of seeing Him returning on the clouds.
Temple destruction of 70 AD, was only a local event witnessed by local people, not a worldwide witness by all people everywhere all over the earth.

 

[sdowney717]

Luke 21 tells us in good order what happened in 70 AD, and what is yet to happen at the second coming which Christ teaches will come as a snare for all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. After 70 Ad, is the time of the gentiles and Jerusalem trampled underfoot by gentiles until their time is over. We are still living in that time. but someday their time of trampling jerusalem will be over. And then the end will come with the second coming, the return of Christ.

Luke 21:20-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

When Christ says 'this generation will not pass away till all those things happen, is simply the generation of that time that He spoke of in the future who will experience those things.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
In the greek that word 'this' means
οὗτος hoûtos, hoo'-tos; from the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):—he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

A lot of people get hung up reading it as THIS when it can easily mean THAT.

 

[mkgal1]

You say the second coming happened in 70 AD. That is a full preterist pov.

Actually....not that's not what I said. "The coming of the Son of Man" isn't the same thing as the second coming (I don't think.....but am not quite sure). What I quoted may have said that (but I quoted for the other information there). That's a distinction that is probably irrelevant in the discussion right now, though (it seems to me).

 

[mkgal1]

Take a look to see what Matthew had written about "the coming of the Son of Man":

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (NIV)~Matthew 16:27-28




When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.~Matthew 10:23



4 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.~Matthew 24:34


And responding to the high priest, Jesus said, “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”~Matthew 26:63-64


~The Son of Man Coming in his Kingdom

from post #98

 

[sdowney717]

And the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is said to be the end of the Jewish age----> and the coming of the Son of Man:


---->Jesus said that some of His disciples will not finish preaching through all the cities of Israel before He comes back (Matthew 10:23). Jesus said that some who were living during His time would not die before they see the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28). Jesus said that "this generation" will not pass away before all these things concerning His second coming are fulfilled (Matthew 24:34). He was talking to the people of that time and the generation of that time. He was saying that they (not us) would be witnesses to these things happening.

Jesus said that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and is destroyed that would be the time of His second coming. This already happened between 63 A.D. and 70 A.D. (seven years).

After 70 A.D. and the establishment of the Kingdom none of the ceremonial laws applied even to the Jews who had converted. All the Jewish ceremonial laws came to a permanent end.~https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140612114310-117953348-second-coming-of-christ-misunderstood

Commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist)~Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

You said this as pointing to that generation, however this can as easily mean that according to the greek.

And the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is said to be the end of the Jewish age----> and the coming of the Son of Man:
---->Jesus said that some of His disciples will not finish preaching through all the cities of Israel before He comes back (Matthew 10:23). Jesus said that some who were living during His time would not die before they see the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28). Jesus said that "this generation" "that generation" will not pass away before all these things concerning His second coming are fulfilled (Matthew 24:34). He was talking to the people of that time and the generation of that time. He was saying that they (not us) would be witnesses to these things happening.

Jesus said that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and is destroyed that would be the time of His second coming. This already happened between 63 A.D. and 70 A.D. (seven years).

What you believe is a full preterist view. That is what full preterists teach.

 

[mkgal1]

What you believe is a full preterist view. That is what full preterists teach.

"Preterist" is a new term for me so I can't really comment on that theological label.

As far as "second coming" being the same thing as "coming of the Son of Man"....I don't know. I'm quoting someone else's words there where it says, "Jesus said that "this generation" "that generation" will not pass away before before all these things concerning His second coming are fulfilled (Matthew 24:34)" I had the link there, but I should have been more clear.

The biblical text says, "coming of the Son of Man" (is that the same thing as the second coming? I don't know. I am leaning towards NOT believing they are the same thing). Some theologians state that's not a coming down of the Son, but Him going up (allegorically speaking) to be seated at the right hand of the Father as the prophecies that point to Him being Messiah had then all be fulfilled after the destruction of Jerusalem. That sits with me right now to make more sense. Either way, though, that distinction shouldn't matter in this discussion. My point is: In the Gospels....Jesus is referring to the national judgement against a nation of Israel....not our individual judgement.

Quoting Benjamin Corey: All things considered, I believe it important to realize that when Jesus discusses hell, a primary purpose (not negating secondary) was a warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and that refusal to heed his advice would result in one being killed and burned in Gehenna.
Read more at What Jesus Talked About When He Talked About Hell

 

[Hillsage]

I read your posts and your pushing heretical views there about the judgement of hell, perhaps your a part of the falling away, great apostasy of the end times.

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Yes, I've heard similar condemning judgments from those like you before. And actually, I do confess believing in heresy. But then I know the true biblical definition of heresy which most do not. Heresy is simply that which is not held in the majority view. MARTIN LUTHER was a heretic according to the church of Rome. Paul himself confessed "After the ways they call heresy so worship I the God of my fathers." So your false judgment doesn't bother me, as I feel I'm in better company historically as well as biblically speaking.

And when Jesus spoke that verse above; he was talking to the leaders of the religious establishment of His day....just like you are....today.....just saying.

 

[Hillsage]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586...n+be+saved&dpPl=1&dpID=518SpBEoc2L&ref=plSrch

Just got my copy from Amazon today, thanks to your recommendation.

 

[mkgal1]

When Christ says 'this generation will not pass away till all those things happen, is simply the generation of that time that He spoke of in the future who will experience those things.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

What ? That doesn't even seem like a coherent sentence.

ETA: but there're also these verses...

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."--Matt 16:28

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes--Matt 10:23

And Luke 9:27 (I'm on my phone, so it's not as easy posting).

 

[Hillsage]

The biblical text says, "coming of the Son of Man" (is that the same thing as the second coming? I don't know. I am leaning towards NOT believing they are the same thing). Some theologians state that's not a coming down of the Son, but Him going up (allegorically speaking) to be seated at the right hand of the Father as the prophecies that point to Him being Messiah had then all be fulfilled after the destruction of Jerusalem. That sits with me right now to make more sense. Either way, though, that distinction shouldn't matter in this discussion. My point is: In the Gospels....Jesus is referring to the national judgement against a nation of Israel....not our individual judgement.

Quoting Benjamin Corey: All things considered, I believe it important to realize that when Jesus discusses hell, a primary purpose (not negating secondary) was a warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and that refusal to heed his advice would result in one being killed and burned in Gehenna.
Read more at What Jesus Talked About When He Talked About Hell

Following is a verse that baffles most.

MAR 14:62 And Jesus said, "I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

How can the son of man be "seated" and yet "coming" at the same time? Failure to understand this verse simply ties right in with the failure of the nominal church to understand such spiritual truths. Truths like those which even Paul said were only spoken of 'to the mature'. And I'm assuming Paul is referencing 'spiritually mature' as opposed to the masses that are just 'theologically smart'.

 

[Doug Melven]

Those weren't Jesus' words ("you should avoid at all costs being thrown into Gehenna").

You don't think Jesus saying that it is better to pluck out an eye, or cut off a hand or foot is better than going into Gehenna (Hellfire)?

"better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and be a public disgrace and grieve God's heart".

That is a very good example of what I call "proper exegesis". aka eisegesis

ETA: I realize my paraphrase is weak.

That is a huge understatement.

I don't believe God cursed Adam and/or Eve or any of us humans. I believe He cursed the ground ....He cursed the serpent...and He imposed pain and sorrow in childbirth for Eve....and Adam in toil will eat from the ground, but I don't see that He cursed Adam and Eve.

What does Paul say?
Galatians
3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.h
That would be everybody, because nobody except Jesus Christ ever kept the law perfectly.

 

[Hillsage]

Started on the book but was a bit disappointed to start. I don't see a 'Nihil Obstat' nor is there an 'Imprimatur' in the front. I guess I was expecting them. Any feedback on that?

 

[mkgal1]

Started on the book but was a bit disappointed to start. I don't see a 'Nihil Obstat' nor is there an 'Imprimatur' in the front. I guess I was expecting them. Any feedback on that?

Hmmm... I'm not sure what the requirements are for publications to obtain those. I wonder if there needs to be full ecclesiastical agreement? I learned about that book from Dr Peter Kreeft (not personally). I'll have to see what I can find out about that.