Flying Spaghetti Monster

[Colter]

I am born of spirit in that I am a conscious being and since knowledge does not come to me automatically beyond perception and requires integration and identification, it is essential to have a rational means of validating what I know. Hence Logic. Now for the third time, will you please refute the arguments I presented to you using logic. Please show how either of the two premises is false or please point to a problem of the form of the arguments. Either that or concede that you can't refute them and we'll move on.

There is a spiritual realm, your arguments had no application to it.

 

[Colter]

This is Bill W. a former hopeless, bankrupt, unemployed skeptical alcoholic. Bill had a spiritual awakening in the privacy of his hospital room at Towns Hospital in 1934. Not only did he remain sober from the experience but he carried the message to others who also found revolutionary change through faith.


This is the 2000 international convention of AA, people who found God as they understand him like bill did.



An intellectually honest person would be able to see this as a form of proof of the God that these people have found.

 

[True Scotsman]

There is a spiritual realm, your arguments had no application to it.

On the contrary, it gets right to the heart of the issue, which is why you will not address the argument. It deals specifically with the relationship between existence and consciousness(spirit).

It is just two simple premises. Will you please show how either one is false or point out an error in logic. I'm going to keep asking until you provide a cogent answer or concede.

 

[True Scotsman]

This is Bill W. a former hopeless, bankrupt, unemployed skeptical alcoholic. Bill had a spiritual awakening in the privacy of his hospital room at Towns Hospital in 1934. Not only did he remain sober from the experience but he carried the message to others who also found revolutionary change through faith.


This is the 2000 international convention of AA, people who found God as they understand him like bill did.



An intellectually honest person would be able to see this as a form of proof of the God that these people have found.

The number of people who believe a thing has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of the thing. An intellectually honest person recognizes this fact. Please provide a cogent refutation of the arguments I presented you with that you claim are invalid.

 

[Colter]

The number of people who believe a thing has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of the thing. An intellectually honest person recognizes this fact. Please provide a cogent refutation of the arguments I presented you with that you claim are invalid.

Thus the pride blindness of the Atheist.

 

[bhsmte]

There is a spiritual realm, your arguments had no application to it.

Sure there is a spiritual realm, to those who believe there is a spiritual realm.

People can convince themselves of just about anything, if they have a strong enough desire to.

 

[Colter]

On the contrary, it gets right to the heart of the issue, which is why you will not address the argument. It deals specifically with the relationship between existence and consciousness(spirit).

It is just two simple premises. Will you please show how either one is false or point out an error in logic. I'm going to keep asking until you provide a cogent answer or concede.

Your need to be right about your convoluted premise is your own egos problem. Each time you have presented it I'm not even sure I understand it. Something about existing within the primacy of existence therefore....yada yada..... That existence is its own primacy is not a widely held belief among philosophers so....

 

[Colter]

Sure there is a spiritual realm, to those who believe there is a spiritual realm.

People can convince themselves of just about anything, if they have a strong enough desire to.

Maybe you have convinced yourself there is not God even thought there is?

 

[True Scotsman]

Thus the pride blindness of the Atheist.

Again with the personal attacks. It's not pride blindness, it's logic. Please provide a cogent refutation of the arguments I presented to you. Either show how one of the two premises are false or point out any errors in logic. If you can't then just concede the point.

 

[bhsmte]

Maybe you have convinced yourself there is not God even thought there is?

I was a Christian for 40 years, so I have been there and done that.

Couldn't reconcile the story any longer, when I acknowledged new knowledge that was compelling.

Some start with a belief and set out to protect the belief, others follow the evidence and take it where it leads them. I have become the latter.

 

[Colter]

I was a Christian for 40 years, so I have been there and done that.

Couldn't reconcile the story any longer, when I acknowledged new knowledge that was compelling.

Some start with a belief and set out to protect the belief, others follow the evidence and take it where it leads them. I have become the latter.

Some are born into a tradition but never really find the God of that tradition through living experience, they simply went along as members of a social club. The weeds of humanistic intellectualism grow up and drown out any potential that the seed had to sprout.

If the tradition that you had before was nothing more than the byproduct of delusional people then in the end all that they had was death.

Now what you have culminates in death. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

 

[bhsmte]

Some are born into a tradition but never really find the God of that tradition through living experience, they simply went along as members of a social club. The weeds of humanistic intellectualism grow up and drown out any potential that the seed had to sprout.

If the tradition that you had before was nothing more than the byproduct of delusional people then in the end all that they had was death.

Now what you have culminates in death. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

Who exactly are you claiming to be delusional?

And being born into tradition is exactly right. This is why, were a person is born, will dictate which religion they follow the vast majority of the time.

Over time though and through education, some figure it out on their own, that what they believed in before, was more than likely wrong. Hence, Christianity has been declining for decades.

 

[Colter]

Again with the personal attacks. It's not pride blindness, it's logic. Please provide a cogent refutation of the arguments I presented to you. Either show how one of the two premises are false or point out any errors in logic. If you can't then just concede the point.

That's not a personal attack, that's a fact, no matter what we provide your pride is thoroughly invested in your unbelief. I'm sure you are a nice fellow Scotsman with lots of talents and abilities which you are currently squandering in your battle against God.

I don't believe that either existence or consciousness is primal, we don't have a complete understanding of either one of those two ideas. Things do exist, what they are is a mater of perception but they are still what they are, energy transmutations. Consciousness exists, we think in concept frames which are in a constant state of flux, so it's not a fixed thing either. Your premise is all or nothing, it seems to petrify one or the other?

 

[Loudmouth]

If the tradition that you had before was nothing more than the byproduct of delusional people then in the end all that they had was death.

Now what you have culminates in death. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

What if you worshipped the wrong deity and will be punished for eternity for doing so? What if the atheists are passed over for judgement because we did not worship any deities, and therefore did not make the True Deity jealous?

Sounds like you had better be an atheist, just in case.

 

[Loudmouth]

That's not a personal attack, that's a fact, no matter what we provide your pride is thoroughly invested in your unbelief.

You believe that a deity created an entire universe just for you, and this same deity actually cares about your minute to minute problems in life. I don't think we are the ones with pride problems.

 

[Colter]

Who exactly are you claiming to be delusional?

And being born into tradition is exactly right. This is why, were a person is born, will dictate which religion they follow the vast majority of the time.

Over time though and through education, some figure it out on their own, that what they believed in before, was more than likely wrong. Hence, Christianity has been declining for decades.

Delusional would be the religious people whose tradition you were born into.

We agree on your point about being born into a tradition.

We agree that there are flat out wrong beliefs within the Christian religion and the biblical cannon. Its the vital spiritual truth content of religion that persists regarded of the inaccuracy of theological, historical, factual narratives within religious writings.

 

[bhsmte]

Delusional would be the religious people whose tradition you were born into.

We agree on your point about being born into a tradition.

We agree that there are flat out wrong beliefs within the Christian religion and the biblical cannon. Its the vital spiritual truth content of religion that persists regarded of the inaccuracy of theological, historical, factual narratives within religious writings.

How would you determine whether certain religious people are delusional?

Quite a label to put on someone, back it up. That is, unless it is your practice to put such labels on certain groups, with nothing to back it up.

 

[Colter]

You believe that a deity created an entire universe just for you, and this same deity actually cares about your minute to minute problems in life. I don't think we are the ones with pride problems.

I have a heavenly Father who loves me in the same way that I love my children. He actually comes out looking for us when we are lost.

The universe was not created just for me, I'm part of a family. I've built a couple homes over the years, I think about my children's needs and desires when making a home for them. Is that so hard to fathom?

 

[Loudmouth]

I have a heavenly Father who loves me in the same way that I love my children. He actually comes out looking for us when we are lost.

And that is the pride we are talking about.

The universe was not created just for me, I'm part of a family. I've built a couple homes over the years, I think about my children's needs and desires when making a home for them. Is that so hard to fathom?

Ahh, so a deity created the universe for your family. Again, that is pride talking.

 

[Colter]

How would you determine whether certain religious people are delusional?

Quite a label to put on someone, back it up. That is, unless it is your practice to put such labels on certain groups, with nothing to back it up.

You seem to have misunderstood my use of the term delusional. I was saying that if the people of the religion that you were born into were delusional, that is, if Christianity is just one big group of people who fooled themselves by an imaginary God, and there is no God, they will just die in the same way Atheist die in their belief system. You lost nothing by leaving and gained nothing in unbelief.