flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

[twhite982]

Now be fair.

sissy was quoting what someone else said about boyd. It wouldn't be fair to atribute those to her.

That was why I asked.

TW

 

[baker]

MF,

What I "pre assume" is that when those members of the lds church say that smething was "restored", "revealed" or "given by word of god", they could provide support.

As I have asked Tom and others, where is the scriptural support for the lds temple wedding/endowment ceremony, and where does Christ tell us to exclude unworthy freinds and family from a wedding ceremony, and why?

Pretty straightforward questions.

What raises concerns for me is the aviodance by lds posters to answer. If you would care to try and answer I would be all ears (or perhaps "eyes" in this venue). If my questions are inappropriate, tell me why.

Mormon Friend,

You seem to be true to form for lds posters. Be critical of those who ask questions of the lds faith. But avoid answering.

Like I have said before, don't ever be afraid of asking questions. But if answering them brings you apprehension and hesitation, be very afraid.

 

[twhite982]

What was I doing reading the Ensign? Well, let me explain it with a well known phrase "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".....

now, I don't consider the LDS people themselves to be enemies but I do consider the LDS church to be an enemy to the one true God and his truth in the Bible....I know, I know, you want to scream at me for saying that but try to refrain, I am just being honest and you did ask, right? lol

I don't have a scanner so I can't scan it for you but I will see if it is on lds.org so I can cut and paste it.

God Bless,
Grace

I thought you might've had a subscription to the Ensign (as a closet Mormon).

It just seemed so out of character for you.

I have no qualms about you disagreeing with my church, in fact I would rather know where you stand then have you try to get me to believe all is well.

TW

 

[Rescued One]

I thought you might've had a subscription to the Ensign (as a closet Mormon).

It just seemed so out of character for you.

I have no qualms about you disagreeing with my church, in fact I would rather know where you stand then have you try to get me to believe all is well.

TW

I wonder why you think all isn't well. I think it's very well that someone is happy in grace. What a warm, cozy place to be!

 

[twhite982]

I think that the LDS put their faith and trust in words of their prophets (at least when it is convient or serves a PR purpose) and sinse so many of the words and teachings of their past prophets are so against what the Bible teaches, in a sense, I do think they worship their prophets rather than the God of the Bible, (even if they don't realize they are doing so).

An example of this would be how when the missionaries tell potential converts to pray to see if the BofM is true and if JS was a true prophet called by God. Even the hymns "Praise to the Man" (speaking about JS) and "We Thank thee oh God for a prophet" seem to show this. I recently read an Ensign article about the birth of Jesus (a Christmas article) and the first part of the Article focused on Joseph Smith and his birthday and all the good he has done for the world in restoring "the true gospel" and then as an after thought, the birth of Christ was mentioned and briefly discussed. I truly don't think LDS believe that they worship their prophets but I think that even though they don't think they do such a thing, in reality, that is exactly what they are doing without even seeing it.

God Bless,
Grace

1. I was shocked to hear you were reading the Ensign.

2. You grossly misrepresented the Ensign. The very first article was the 1st presidency's message and you may be shocked to hear, but Joseph Smith's name is not mentioned once. The front and back covers are of Mary and Jesus. There are several articles prior to the one you mentioned that talk of Christ. How did you ever come away with that conclusion?

It seems to me that your having to stretch in order to support ByGrace's theory about the LDS worshipping their prophets.

TW

Ensign
December 2003
Volume 33 Number 12
Ensign, Dec. 2003
[illustrations] Front cover: Detail from Mary and the Angel, by Carl Heinrich Bloch; back cover: The Birth of Jesus, by Carl Heinrich Bloch, both courtesy of the National Historic Museum at Frederiksborg in Hillerød, Denmark
[illustration] Inside front cover: The Presentation of Christ in the Temple, by James J. Tissot
[illustration] Building the Kirtland Temple, by Walter Rane. In late 1832 and early 1833 the Lord told the Saints to “establish … a house of God” (D&C 88:119). In June 1833 the Lord said: “It is my will that you should build a house. If you keep my commandments you shall have power to build it” (D&C 95:11).
Contents
First Presidency Message: The Gifts of Christmas
President Thomas S. Monson
Gospel Classics: The Divinity of Jesus Christ
Elder Orson F. Whitney
Come, Lord Jesus
Could I Come Back?
Susan L. MacDonald
Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth
Catching the Vision of Missionary Work
Brian Jensen
Testimonies of Family Home Evening
Kirtland Restored
Building for Their Future
Garth A. Hanson
Loading Up the Little Red Wagon
Annette Paxman Bowen
I Can Make Rolls
Glenda Anderson
Not Room Enough to Receive It
Visiting Teaching Message: Prepare by Living Providently and Paying Tithes and Offerings
Parables of Jesus: “I Am the True Vine”
Elder Anthony R. Temple
Words of the Early Apostles: Safely Anchored by Love
Elder H. Ross Workman
Latter-day Saint Voices
Random Sampler
News of the Church
Annual Index
Making the Most of This Issue



© 2004 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

[MormonFriend]

...I recently read an Ensign article about the birth of Jesus (a Christmas article) and the first part of the Article focused on Joseph Smith and his birthday and all the good he has done for the world in restoring "the true gospel" and then as an after thought, the birth of Christ was mentioned and briefly discussed. I truly don't think LDS believe that they worship their prophets but I think that even though they don't think they do such a thing, in reality, that is exactly what they are doing without even seeing it.

God Bless,
Grace

I have pointed out to you of your remarkable tendency to mis-read or mis-quote. Here you do it again. The article was not one about the birth of Jesus, just read the title.

“Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth,” Ensign, Dec. 2003, 17
In a single stunning moment, 14-year-old Joseph Smith learned a great truth about Jesus Christ that had been lost for centuries: that the Savior, though perfectly one in purpose with God the Father, is in fact a separate and distinct personage with a glorified physical body of His own. The Prophet Joseph Smith had other personal experiences with Jesus Christ while translating the plates that would become the Book of Mormon and while in the Kirtland Temple. Through Joseph many other lost doctrinal truths about Christ were restored.



During December we celebrate not only the Savior’s birth but also the birth of the prophet who was the instrument to restore to earth a true understanding of Jesus Christ and the glorious fulness of His gospel. Following are some latter-day prophets’ testimonies of Joseph Smith’s mission in restoring the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His gospel, as well as excerpts from the Prophet Joseph Smith’s own words testifying of Christ. ...............................

It is very common to read articles about Joseph Smith as we acknowledge his birthday, also in December.

Did you happen to see the opening article in that issue?

First Presidency Message
The Gifts of Christmas

By President Thomas S. Monson
First Counselor in the First Presidency

It is all about Christ. And how about the second article?

Gospel Classics:
The Divinity of Jesus Christ

By Elder Orson F. Whitney (1855-1931)
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

And the third article was a new hymn about the birth of Jesus. Another article in that same issue:

Parables of Jesus:
“I Am the True Vine”

By Elder Anthony R. Temple
Area Authority Seventy
North America Northeast Area

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing” (John 15:5).

Why do you misconstrue?

 

[twhite982]

Hey MF,

You caught Grace on that too.

I just think its cool that she reads the Ensign, whether its for a good reason or not. .

TW

 

[MormonFriend]

MF,

What I "pre assume" is that when those members of the lds church say that smething was "restored", "revealed" or "given by word of god", they could provide support.

As I have asked Tom and others, where is the scriptural support for the lds temple wedding/endowment ceremony, and where does Christ tell us to exclude unworthy freinds and family from a wedding ceremony, and why?

Pretty straightforward questions.

What raises concerns for me is the aviodance by lds posters to answer. If you would care to try and answer I would be all ears (or perhaps "eyes" in this venue). If my questions are inappropriate, tell me why.

Mormon Friend,

You seem to be true to form for lds posters. Be critical of those who ask questions of the lds faith. But avoid answering.

Like I have said before, don't ever be afraid of asking questions. But if answering them brings you apprehension and hesitation, be very afraid.

Apprehension has meaning of a few ideas. Fear is not one of them for me, except for fear that I cannot convey what I know. But that is more of a concern than a fear.

The "support" that you are asking for is not going to be manifest in the format that you seek. The scritpures do not contain all that was, is, or is to come. They do however contain enough to point our thoughts and hearts in the right direction to learn more.

Jesus was the greatest teacher of all times. He expounded on the scriptures to those who were "in the know," yet He could not convince them, and they, in the name and knowledge of their faith, crucified Him. And the Proof was right before their eyes. It was not their mental capacities that prevented them from understanding, but their spiritual capacities, measured by hardness of heart.

Modern Temple ceremonies are not to be found in the modern Bible. If they were contained in original ancient writings, time may tell, ...maybe not. As far as "unworthy" friends or family, I think the adjective is better said as "unprepared," which could include unworthy, but not necessarily. I posted greater detail on this somewhere. I'll find it if you like.

I have been "critical" of a couple posters, mainly because of their intentional misrepresentation. But avoiding is not my MO. Either I view their questions as not worth while, or I am spread too thin to get back to all questions. I recall having several good discussions with you a few months ago. I hope that I did not avoid.

As far as this particular discussion goes, it is like most. Proof is not part of God's plan. Faith is, and all discussions will end on this kind of note. If we could nail everything down to satisfy our intellect, it still would not satisfy our spirit, except perhaps as a temporary pacifier.

Consider this lesson from Jesus:
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring, O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;....(Matthew16:3 - 4)

Is it any wonder that being wicked and adulterous (no finger pointing here, just covering true principles that everyone must apply) ... causes people to seek for physical signs and proof? That kind of life is what hardens the heart, and dulls the senses of discernment. The signs are to be discerned, not interpreted or defined. Discernment is a gift of God that we must seek, as did Solomon.

9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?
(1 Kings3:9)

If I or you speak the truth, if I or you teach deception, only those who live the truth with an eye single to the glory of God will be able to discern. We are our own judges in this aspect.

So any support that really matters regarding the Temple ceremonies or any topics of God, comes from the heart, not the brain. This I am sure of. I cannot prove it, but you can.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I thought you might've had a subscription to the Ensign (as a closet Mormon).

It just seemed so out of character for you.

I have no qualms about you disagreeing with my church, in fact I would rather know where you stand then have you try to get me to believe all is well.

TW

LOL, what do you mean "out of character" ? Oh believe me, I stay current on what the opposing team is up to....mawaaaaahhhhaaaaaahhhhaaaa....hehe

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I wonder why you think all isn't well. I think it's very well that someone is happy in grace. What a warm, cozy place to be!

Yup, Yup, and Yup

God Bless,
Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

1. I was shocked to hear you were reading the Ensign.

2. You grossly misrepresented the Ensign. The very first article was the 1st presidency's message and you may be shocked to hear, but Joseph Smith's name is not mentioned once. The front and back covers are of Mary and Jesus. There are several articles prior to the one you mentioned that talk of Christ. How did you ever come away with that conclusion?

It seems to me that your having to stretch in order to support ByGrace's theory about the LDS worshipping their prophets.

TW

Ensign
December 2003
Volume 33 Number 12
Ensign, Dec. 2003
[illustrations] Front cover: Detail from Mary and the Angel, by Carl Heinrich Bloch; back cover: The Birth of Jesus, by Carl Heinrich Bloch, both courtesy of the National Historic Museum at Frederiksborg in Hillerød, Denmark
[illustration] Inside front cover: The Presentation of Christ in the Temple, by James J. Tissot
[illustration] Building the Kirtland Temple, by Walter Rane. In late 1832 and early 1833 the Lord told the Saints to “establish … a house of God” (D&C 88:119). In June 1833 the Lord said: “It is my will that you should build a house. If you keep my commandments you shall have power to build it” (D&C 95:11).
Contents
First Presidency Message: The Gifts of Christmas
President Thomas S. Monson
Gospel Classics: The Divinity of Jesus Christ
Elder Orson F. Whitney
Come, Lord Jesus
Could I Come Back?
Susan L. MacDonald
Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth
Catching the Vision of Missionary Work
Brian Jensen
Testimonies of Family Home Evening
Kirtland Restored
Building for Their Future
Garth A. Hanson
Loading Up the Little Red Wagon
Annette Paxman Bowen
I Can Make Rolls
Glenda Anderson
Not Room Enough to Receive It
Visiting Teaching Message: Prepare by Living Providently and Paying Tithes and Offerings
Parables of Jesus: “I Am the True Vine”
Elder Anthony R. Temple
Words of the Early Apostles: Safely Anchored by Love
Elder H. Ross Workman
Latter-day Saint Voices
Random Sampler
News of the Church
Annual Index
Making the Most of This Issue



© 2004 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

Not streching at all. I stated in my posts that I had read an article (notice I said 1 article) in the Ensign that focused on JS and mentioned Jesus as a side thought and that is exactly what the article did. I did not state anything falsely nor did I do any streching, I posted the link so everyone could go read it for themselves. It is a Christmas issue and an entire article is devoted to JS and then as if in passing, Jesus is mentioned.

If anyone reading this thread has not gone to the link I posted and read the article themselves, I encourage them to do so, so that all will know what I am talking about. I did no streching in regards to that article and that article is what I was talking about in the first place.

Grace

 

[MormonFriend]

Hey MF,

You caught Grace on that too.

I just think its cool that she reads the Ensign, whether its for a good reason or not. .

TW

You are right of course. But the situation reminds me of something Neil Maxwell said:

Church members will live in this wheat-and-tares situation until the Millennium. Some real tares even masquerade as wheat, including the few eager individuals who lecture the rest of us about Church doctrines in which they no longer believe. They criticize the use of Church resources to which they no longer contribute. They condescendingly seek to counsel the Brethren whom they no longer sustain. Confrontive, except of themselves, of course, they leave the Church, but they cannot leave the Church alone (Ensign, Nov. 1980, 14). Like the throng on the ramparts of the “great and spacious building,” they are intensely and busily preoccupied, pointing fingers of scorn at the steadfast iron-rodders (1 Ne. 8:26-28, 33). Considering their ceaseless preoccupation, one wonders, Is there no diversionary activity available to them, especially in such a large building—like a bowling alley? Perhaps in their mockings and beneath the stir are repressed doubts of their doubts.

 

[Rescued One]

You are right of course. But the situation reminds me of something Neil Maxwell said:

Church members will live in this wheat-and-tares situation until the Millennium. Some real tares even masquerade as wheat, including the few eager individuals who lecture the rest of us about Church doctrines in which they no longer believe. They criticize the use of Church resources to which they no longer contribute. They condescendingly seek to counsel the Brethren whom they no longer sustain. Confrontive, except of themselves, of course, they leave the Church, but they cannot leave the Church alone (Ensign, Nov. 1980, 14). Like the throng on the ramparts of the “great and spacious building,” they are intensely and busily preoccupied, pointing fingers of scorn at the steadfast iron-rodders (1 Ne. 8:26-28, 33). Considering their ceaseless preoccupation, one wonders, Is there no diversionary activity available to them, especially in such a large building—like a bowling alley? Perhaps in their mockings and beneath the stir are repressed doubts of their doubts.

Yeah, I have to wonder about people like you who come here not to debate doctrine as much as to criticize ex-LDS. Too bad, isn't it that HappyinGrace is happier where she is now? I'm happy for her. She has a place with our Father in heaven--absolutely guaranteed!

 

[twhite982]

LOL, what do you mean "out of character" ? Oh believe me, I stay current on what the opposing team is up to....mawaaaaahhhhaaaaaahhhhaaaa....hehe

Grace

Only joking Grace.

TW

 

[twhite982]

Not streching at all. I stated in my posts that I had read an article (notice I said 1 article) in the Ensign that focused on JS and mentioned Jesus as a side thought and that is exactly what the article did. I did not state anything falsely nor did I do any streching, I posted the link so everyone could go read it for themselves. It is a Christmas issue and an entire article is devoted to JS and then as if in passing, Jesus is mentioned.

If anyone reading this thread has not gone to the link I posted and read the article themselves, I encourage them to do so, so that all will know what I am talking about. I did no streching in regards to that article and that article is what I was talking about in the first place.

Grace

Well, this was part of your "evidence" for why the LDS "unknowingly" worship prophets. I'm suprised you missed the 5 earlier articles or the fact that the majority of the magazine was devoted to Jesus Christ.

I haven't read the article myself because my Dec. issue of the Ensign did not come , but I can't see why you wouldn't make a much fairer assessment of the Ensign with all the other articles.

Anyways just an observation from a Mormon.

TW

 

[twhite982]

Yeah, I have to wonder about people like you who come here not to debate doctrine as much as to criticize ex-LDS. Too bad, isn't it that HappyinGrace is happier where she is now? I'm happy for her. She has a place with our Father in heaven--absolutely guaranteed!

I'm happy for Grace too if she has developed a relationship with her Father in Heaven.

My only point was that I felt Grace misrepresented the LDS church with her comments, knowingly or unknowingly.

TW

 

[Rescued One]

I'm happy for Grace too if she has developed a relationship with her Father in Heaven.

My only point was that I felt Grace misrepresented the LDS church with her comments, knowingly or unknowingly.

TW

I thought my post was to MF. I don't remember criticizing your post, but I'm tired right now and it affects my brain. Sorry.

 

[twhite982]

I thought my post was to MF. I don't remember criticizing your post, but I'm tired right now and it affects my brain. Sorry.

Sorry for the interuption. I was a little trigger happy. I only responded because I originally responded to Grace about her using the Ensign to say what it did not, i.e. LDS worship our prophets.

TW

 

[MormonFriend]

TW: I'm happy for Grace too if she has developed a relationship with her Father in Heaven.

My only point was that I felt Grace misrepresented the LDS church with her comments, knowingly or unknowingly.

TW

I thought my post was to MF. I don't remember criticizing your post, but I'm tired right now and it affects my brain. Sorry.

TW said what I wouldn'ta said but shoulda said. So I am glad he responded first.
I hear her say she is happy, but I do not sense it. Could be me though.

 

[Rescued One]

TW said what I wouldn'ta said but shoulda said. So I am glad he responded first.
I hear her say she is happy, but I do not sense it. Could be me though.

It might very well be you. 'Cause you've never sounded very happy to me either.