flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

[baker]

Baker, So when is/was your daughters Temple wedding anyway?

I sure wish your daughter, her husband and your wife well!

Sherman

Sherm,

What peep stone are you reading?

 

[TOmNossor]

It seems that Mark or someone removed some words from the Gospel of Mark. The truth was maintained for a period, but was ultimately lost (perhaps because it was about sacred esoteric rights).
Where is this information located?

Grace

To the ever intrepid Wrigley, be sure not to click this link wouldn't want to learn anything new!

HappyinHisgrace,
The Secret Gospel of Mark has little to do with the CoJCoLDS. It is still being debated in academia. But here is the site I usually go to for updates (none have been posted recently). There are many evidences of esoteric things within the Early Church, this is just one (possible).
http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Secret/secmark_home.html

Charity, TOm

 

[RufustheRed]

Sven,

The problem with you is that you actually took the time to read and become knowlegable. You actually took the initiative to "think" for yourself.

What's up with that? True.

Oh, I don't know, Baker. It was a habit I picked up after I left the LDS.
I only know that the more I study and pray, it becomes evident that I need to study and pray more.

Have a nice night.

Sven

 

[baker]

Oh, I don't know, Baker. It was a habit I picked up after I left the LDS.
I only know that the more I study and pray, it becomes evident that I need to study and pray more.

Have a nice night.

Sven

Oh yeah, the hampster wheel syndrome!

 

[MormonFriend]

Yea, right. You think Mark or the Catholics have more power than God? My God is all-powerful. He doesn't let atheists, Catholics, humanists, or anyone destroy His word.

If the Bible isn't reliable, it isn't God's word, and man is hopelessly lost.

God won't stop (can't stop) man from exercising his free will, otherwise it is not free will. Yet He did forsee the time when man would corrupt His word, and prepared for it by preserving the witness of another nation. Because of the restoration of all things, man is not hopelessly lost.

 

[baker]

Tom,



Don't abandon my post 323 now!!! Seems like whenever somone asks about the scriptural source for all this temple wedding/ceremony stuff, the lds abandone the topic.

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This I know. My question is why? Where do I find any scriptures requiring a sealing.



None of this is relevant to my questions. I would just like to know why I am excluded from what should be such a joyous occasion of love and happiness. If it helps you answer, consider me non-denominational.






Tom, where do you come up with this stuff. This must be unique to mormonism. I can't begin to count the number of weddings I've been to where many of the participants were not of the faith that the two being married.



Ok, what if you don't want to be the priest or the godparent. What if you just want to witness one of the most joyous occasions in the life between a parent/child or relative or friend.

In any other church, you would be as welcome as any one participating in the actual ceremony. That's because the message of Christ was for all to hear, sinners and saints alike. He never excluded.



Is this a "Christian" requirement or merely a requirement of the mormon church. If it is a christian requirement, could you provide the underlying scripture?





What? And where does the Catholic church exclude people from joyous occasions?






Tom, be serious here. There are no questions because I could never be worthy unless I'm a mormon under your church standards. I am as unworthy as the non-tithing members who was excluded as well.

Tell me, how do you determine worthiness and what are we to be worthy of. This is where the lds posters on the board always abandone the conversation!




Where, could you provide a cite?



Again, what scriptures?



John 18:

19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
21 Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.

Does that answer your question? Like I've said before - go with the original!

 

[Rescued One]

== If the Bible isn't reliable, it isn't God's word, and man is hopelessly lost.

Well, that is just silly to Mormon ears. So God is entirely dependent on a few scribes?

Sorry, but we put more faith in God than we do a book.

Don't even suggest that I have more faith in the Bible than I do in God! But my God said that His word would stand forever, so I just take Him at His word.


RE: "So God is entirely dependent on a few scribes?"

Make me laugh! 2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Oh, that says the Bible was given by inspiration from God!

LDS say:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

Italics mine.

So your god didn't preserve the Bible. You're saying he was dependent upon scribes, but the right ones weren't available?

 

[MormonFriend]

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I'm sorry, but I know so such thing. Are you accusing me of having seen your temple ceremonies? How could I, a lowly Christian, see those things done in secret?

Your question made me ponder if we all mean the same definition when speaking of secrets.

1. Kept hidden from knowledge or view; concealed.
2. Dependably discreet.
3. Operating in a hidden or confidential manner: a secret agent.
4. Not expressed; inward: their secret thoughts.
5. Not frequented; secluded: wandered about the secret byways of Paris.
6. Known or shared only by the initiated: secret rites.
7. Beyond ordinary understanding; mysterious.
8. Containing information, the unauthorized disclosure of which poses a grave threat to national security.

n.

1. Something kept hidden from others or known only to oneself or to a few.
2. Something that remains beyond understanding or explanation; a mystery.
3. A method or formula on which success is based: The secret of this dish is in the sauce.
4. Secret A variable prayer said after the Offertory and before the Preface in the Mass.

I can see how our Temple ceremonies would be considered as such. I have considered "secret" to mean withholding information for selfish reasons. As for the Temple, the reasons are quite the opposite, as we want all to have the information we receive in the Temple.

The challenge is in the difference of accessing that information and understanding that information. The things of God are, and always will be a mystery to the natural man. The only hope a person has is to discern the eternal truths by the personal tutoring of the Holy Ghost. That cannot happen until the person has started the process of conversion, having committed by covenent with God to dedicate his life to changing his ways for God's ways.

This then is why the "worthiness check" is done by way of a Temple Recommend. I understood the Temple ceremony very little when I first attended. I could now literally graph a chart of the understanding I have gained in relation to the things I have overcome as I am learning to submit my miserable will to the Father's. There are still things I do not understand. There are also things I am aware of in my life that verify my will is still alive and making itself known. I can see so vividly that if I were required to do it all at once in "removing my dross from the refiner's fire," the suffering would have done me in.

A scritpure that has always meant alot to me has just recently made more sense in that process of personal revelation. Perhaps this has been observed by LDS or non-LDS persons.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (1 Corinthians10:13)

Some may think that God has some sort of leash or muzzle on Satan to keep him from tempting us above a level that we can tolerate. Not so! Satan can only tempt us with misusing truth. So to limit temptation to a level that we can tolerate, God withholds truth until we have proven that we will be true to the Truth.

If we haven't been true to the basics of the Gospel we learned at baptism (see Heb.5:9-12), we certainly are not prepared for the added temptation that would be placed upon us in the Temple. It is as simple as that.

Non-members are certainly not prepared to participate in the holiest of cerimonies, and in so doing they may misconstrue sacred things completely opposite to its real meaning. This happens all to often to members that really were not prepared themselves. The perceptions they derive may cause a hindrance to even accepting the basics, the same basics that were required to comprehend the higher order of the things of God.

Of course, as I have perceived from your posts, you likely think this is all rubbish. But in the scheme of God's plan, which is still preserved Biblically, one (including you) must go through a process to obtain a correct understanding of the things of God.

I hope that helps in understanding from our side of the mountain, the view of the valley.

 

[Rescued One]

It would be funny if this super secret stuff in the temple is just a fancy recipe for jello.

I cannot comment due to the sacred secrecy of the vows, washings, annointings, handshakes, and temple garments.

 

[Rescued One]

Temple Mormon elitism at its best:

Non-members are certainly not prepared to participate in the holiest of cerimonies, and in so doing they may misconstrue sacred things completely opposite to its real meaning. This happens all to often to members that really were not prepared themselves. The perceptions they derive may cause a hindrance to even accepting the basics, the same basics that were required to comprehend the higher order of the things of God.

Of course, as I have perceived from your posts, you likely think this is all rubbish. But in the scheme of God's plan, which is still preserved Biblically, one (including you) must go through a process to obtain a correct understanding of the things of God.

I hope that helps in understanding from our side of the mountain, the view of the valley.

 

[MormonFriend]

Stendahl was mistaken. If a liar leaves a particular faith, he is not only liable but likely to lie about it. If an honest person leaves, he will most assuredly tell the truth. All ex-Catholics are certainly not liars. All ex-Baptists are certainly not liars. All ex-Mormons are certainly not liars. You can even learn about a religion from its ex-adherents.

Not all "current" Catholics, Baptists and Mormons are liers either. Stendahl was correct, because until we can prove who the liars are, we have to say "be careful, there is a potential here of deceit." One can have the ability to discern a liar, but discernment is a personal talent and cannot be proven to others.

Also, it makes it easier to follow sub-topics when you hit the "quote" link at the bottom of the post. That way the thread stays in order when viewing in the "hybrid thread" mode. The reply button at the upper left, and above the post window, is for a direct response to the original poster.
Thanks.

 

[Rescued One]

Joseph Fielding Smith Restrictions will be placed upon those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, and even those in the celestial kingdom who do not get the exaltation; changes will be made in their bodies to suit their condition; and there will be no marrying or giving in marriage, nor living together of men and women, because of these restrictions." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 73.)

Not all in the Celestial Kingdom can have exaltation. What about eternal progression?

"Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage;but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
"For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever." (Doctrine & Covenants 132: 16-17)

I take it that marriage for time and eternity is more sacred than being baptized into the LDS church.

 

[Rescued One]

Also, it makes it easier to follow sub-topics when you hit the "quote" link at the bottom of the post. That way the thread stays in order when viewing in the "hybrid thread" mode. The reply button at the upper left, and above the post window, is for a direct response to the original poster.
Thanks.

What if I don't want to repost a really long quote?

 

[MormonFriend]

Temple Mormon elitism at its best:

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Elitism:

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

1. <LI type=a>The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

I am afraid that you make many assumptions. I see absolutely no application in your comment to the purpose of Temples. In fact, these definitions are principles that we understand can deprive us of what we want to accomplish in the Temple.

 

[MormonFriend]

What if ....long quote?

You can highlight and delete a portion or all of the post, as I did to your post as an example.

 

[MormonFriend]

Or delete all of the quote like this.

 

[MormonFriend]

Joseph Fielding Smith Restrictions will be placed upon those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, and even those in the celestial kingdom who do not get the exaltation; changes will be made in their bodies to suit their condition; and there will be no marrying or giving in marriage, nor living together of men and women, because of these restrictions." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 73.)

Not all in the Celestial Kingdom can have exaltation. What about eternal progression?

Years ago this quote did not make sense to me. I have reservations that my comment might do the same for you. But let's give it a try.
All levels or glories of heaven are governed by law. In this life we learn what God already knew as to what level of obedience to law we will allow to govern us. The highest law is what Jesus taught.
"37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew22:37 - 40)

To love God with all our hearts is to overcome the world, using our greatest love for Him and His Son as our power and sole motive.

Example: I desire to loose weight. I also desire choclate ice cream every night. My desire to loose weight is verified by my use of free will to sacrifice the ice cream, which symbollicly causes suffering. If I choose the ice cream, then my desire to loose weight is not the greatest love that I have. In this principle we see that a person can shed his personal wants. This exercise develops the character to control "selfishness."

We (including LDS) are to inherit all that God has.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans8:16 - 18)
That is a lot to have via inheritance, and if we inherited that which is God's, and still posessed the spirit of selfishness and pride, then the end result would be worse that what we see in the world today, misusing what little God has given us.

Exaltation and eternal progression (remember that these terms have more content than what meets the eye) ...are for those who live the highest law of love. Hence, they will not misuse the powers that are derived from living in that Kingdom. Others who are of a righteous nature, but would not endure all things pertaing to refinement, will live in a lesser degree of glory, lesser caused by lesser laws governing that level. They will not enjoy the blessings of exaltation and eternal progression (more terms that are easily misconstrued) ... but will enjoy all things that they were willing to accept, according to the choices they made in their preparatory state. Nobody is denied anything, except what they deny themselves.

"Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage;but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
"For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever." (Doctrine & Covenants 132: 16-17)

I take it that marriage for time and eternity is more sacred than being baptized into the LDS church.

Not necessarily more sacred. Being baptized is what leads us to understanding and pursuing eternal marriage. It is one of the results and rewards of making covenants with God at baptism. All things in their proper order.

 

[MormonFriend]

Ask those who are excluded. Yes, it is disastrous if it is being claimed that god wanted it that way!


Why do you excluded your "brothers and sisters" of Christ? It is the lds church making the division, not the brothers and sisters of Chirst. And certainly not Christ.


Kevin, what christian church do you know that excludes non-members from weddings. If it's "sacred" Christ would want all to hear!

Did your Baptist church exclude mormons from the wedding ceremony. Come on Kevin, use reason.


Now there's some great rationale. "Hey, we stand in judgement of our own members, so you shouldn't mind if we stand in judgement of you too"

It seems that the common denominator in the difference of viewpoint is that you pre assume that this is the work of man. Fair enough! We believe it is the work of God. Yet, can you enter into our belief system via discussion and truly understand (if that is what you really want) ... our position when you carry with you your pre-assumptions?
You knock down each individual precept, one at a time before you get a chance to see how they all fit together. Of course, you do not have to accept what you would see, but you never give yourself a chance to see it!

 

[skylark1]

The challenge is in the difference of accessing that information and understanding that information. The things of God are, and always will be a mystery to the natural man. The only hope a person has is to discern the eternal truths by the personal tutoring of the Holy Ghost. That cannot happen until the person has started the process of conversion, having committed by covenent with God to dedicate his life to changing his ways for God's ways.

Are you actually claiming that the Holy Ghost can only lead those who are LDS?

 

[MormonFriend]

MF: The challenge is in the difference of accessing that information and understanding that information. The things of God are, and always will be a mystery to the natural man. The only hope a person has is to discern the eternal truths by the personal tutoring of the Holy Ghost. That cannot happen until the person has started the process of conversion, having committed by covenent with God to dedicate his life to changing his ways for God's ways.

Are you actually claiming that the Holy Ghost can only lead those who are LDS?

Absolutly not! I am speaking generically that this is a principle that all Christians should recognize as the means to understand their doctrine. I am representing myself as a Christian and these Christian principles apply to our doctrine. Most of the readers I suspect will scoff at that, but if I claim to be Christian, I had better understand my beliefs by the Holy Ghost.

Also, in the conversion process of non-LDS, the Holy Ghost makes things known to them before they are LDS.

Many I have heard say that they have prayed for an answer to our claims and say that the Holy Ghost tells them different. What can I say to that except that is different to my answer, but you best go with your answer because that answer is what is personally your privelidge to receive.
Someone is deceived, and that too becomes a personal evaluation, and sacred.