flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

emerald Dragon · Jan 29, 2004

And I must confess that I do find joy in swinging the sludgehammer at its base when filling my spare time

The faith and the Truth that is built upon the Cornersotne of Jesus Christ cannot fall. Like the house that is built on solid rock, and not on shifting sand, this house cannot, and will not fall at the whims of men.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

emerald Dragon · Jan 29, 2004

You now- in all my time as a member of the CHurch (about 5 years), I have never recieved once a lesson from such sources as the "King Follet Discourses", "Mormon Doctrine", and the Journal Discourses of Smith or Young. I have yet to see these used as official teaching material for the CHurch. In fact, if you go to the www.lds.org site, and click on the 'gospel library' link to the side,it will give you a pretty extensive list of the official teaching materials.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

Wrigley · Jan 29, 2004

emerald Dragon said:
The faith and the Truth that is built upon the Cornersotne of Jesus Christ cannot fall. Like the house that is built on solid rock, and not on shifting sand, this house cannot, and will not fall at the whims of men.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

Do you really want to bring up the whims of man?

We can spend a lot of time on the whims of smith and young.

A lot of time.

happyinhisgrace · Jan 29, 2004

emerald Dragon said:
The faith and the Truth that is built upon the Cornersotne of Jesus Christ cannot fall. Like the house that is built on solid rock, and not on shifting sand, this house cannot, and will not fall at the whims of men.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

Emerald, that is so very true. A good example of that would be the lds claims of a "total apostacy" not many years after Jesus death.

Grace

happyinhisgrace · Jan 29, 2004

emerald Dragon said:
You now- in all my time as a member of the CHurch (about 5 years), I have never recieved once a lesson from such sources as the "King Follet Discourses", "Mormon Doctrine", and the Journal Discourses of Smith or Young. I have yet to see these used as official teaching material for the CHurch. In fact, if you go to the www.lds.org site, and click on the 'gospel library' link to the side,it will give you a pretty extensive list of the official teaching materials.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

emerald, get you a "Gospel Principles" book from the church distrubution center or read it online at lds.org....they use a bunch of quotes from Smith and Young that were taken from JofD and a few from Mormon Docterine and even a few (if I remember correctly) from King Follet Discourses. It is a church approved book and the opening of the Book states that it is beneficial and helpful for the teaching of man (that is not exact quote but you will see the meaning when you read it)

Grace

GodsWatchman · Jan 29, 2004

emerald Dragon said:
You now- in all my time as a member of the CHurch (about 5 years), I have never recieved once a lesson from such sources as the "King Follet Discourses", "Mormon Doctrine", and the Journal Discourses of Smith or Young. I have yet to see these used as official teaching material for the CHurch. In fact, if you go to the www.lds.org site, and click on the 'gospel library' link to the side,it will give you a pretty extensive list of the official teaching materials.

Simply because the Official Mormon Church (Inc.) doesn't broadcast it - doesn't make it go away. The fact of the matter is that your church history (the truth) is in those books. You should spend some time and read about your church fathers and what they REALLY TAUGHT.

Here is just a few right off the top of my head:

Unless you pracitce polygamy here on earth now - you will never enter your 'highest kingdom'

There are many Gods and the God aspoused by the BOM was once a man like you and you will become a God like him.

There are some sins that you must BLEED FOR yourself - LITERALLY!

---------------------------------

BTW: I live just a few miles from the REAL MORMONS - The ones that follow that original 'doctrine'. What a hideous group of folks. They marrry the young girls in at around 13 or so ... have 3,4,5 wives and zillions of children and "moooch" off the State and Feds by claiming the children to be b-stards and You and I have to pay for them through food stamps, free health care and much more. This is the REAL mormonism here .... the Corporate (read Inc.) mormonism that you are refering to is the "watered down version" - more palletable to others around .... just a bit less offensive.

I'm pretty sure, that by virtue of you being on this forum, that you have been shown the truth before. I'll bet you've seen these writings from your church fathers ...and yet you continue to abide in the lies. Hey -Its your eternity - Harden your heart to a crystal if you want, but when the Rock breaks you it will soooooo much more painful.

TOmNossor · Jan 29, 2004

GodsWordisTrue,

You said this to another poster.

GodsWordisTrue:

I don't know you personally. So if you're not embarrassed, we can talk about all sorts of things(if I have the time).

TOm:

I have not seen evidence that you want to talk about things, but you can correct me if I have misunderstood.

GodsWordisTrue:

Are you saying that some of your members worship the devil? Are you saying that by getting a temple recommend, it proves that one of your members isnt a child abuser? Who signs your temple recommend? You or your Bishop and Stake President? Can I have one? What are the horrible sins your members commit that bar them from entering the temple?

TOm:

Did you truly so completely misunderstand what I asked? I answered your questions, but you did not answer mine. Since it seems you have the time why did you avoid the question?

I asked you if within your church if the most important God called duties are preformed by those in gross rebellion against God. You did not answer.

In the CoJCoLDS the most sacred duties and ordinances are preformed by those who are not in open rebellion against God. If you are a faithful LDS, you believe that God has called you to subordinate your will to his will. If you do not think you have heeded that call, you will report this to your Bishop. Repentance and calling on Christs help in my experience have been the council of the Bishop.

Unless you are content to have Sunday School teachers and Preachers who are in gross rebellion against God, perhaps child abusers, then you have standards too. That the LDS standards are more exacting I will not apologize for. We know that we have been called to do more than just abstain from the grossest of sins.

GodsWordisTrue:

Well, deny it all you want. Facts remain facts whether you agree with them or not.

TOm:

You perhaps should be more careful with your words. You just professed to believe one must take out their endowments to be exalted. I truly think this was just a mistake on your part, but perhaps some portion of you knows more than you let on.

As to the beliefs of the CoJCoLDS, I explained that the CoJCoLDS says that all will have a fair and just opportunity. Since all ordinances will be preformed by Gods servants, ones failure to perform these ordinances in this life clearly cannot be viewed as precluding exaltation.

You asked a question. You received an answer. Then you claimed the answer was wrong. This is not the behavior of someone who wants to know answers. The things you think you know you are mistaken on.

GodsWordisTrue:

Are you saying the God of the Bible is unjust? Who defines justice for Him? As for gifts, God has aready told us that His gift is eternal life. He also tells us how we may have it. Remember a gift is something you dont have to pay for. The fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been around a lot longer than Mormonism, so thanks for promising me this opportunity, but it isn't necessary to have two lives in which to accept Christ.

TOm:

No one gets a second chance after they die, but some like the man who lived and died without ever hearing the Word of God were not afforded a first chance to know Christ and believe that he died for our sins.

Do you believe in strict predestination? Are some of us born to go to hell no matter what we do or try to believe, and the rest born to go to heaven no matter what we do or try to believe? Some people believe this. Do you?

GodsWordisTrue:

Please do me a favor and define salvation.

TOm:

In the statement directly above, I was referring to salvation meaning the receiving of the gift from God of an eternal life that is wonderful beyond our imagination.

We can know this because those who rebel*** against God (provided they had a sure witness of the Holy Spirit), are the rebels who go to Outer Darkness, which is an eternal nothingness.

Where do you think those who rebel against the sure witness of the Holy Spirit spend eternity?

If you really want to discuss these things, perhaps you should answer my questions and then provide your own thoughts rather than ignoring my questions and telling me I do not understand. If the CoJCoLDS is Gods church, you (and all who have examined and rejected the Church) are deceived by definition. You can only learn if the CoJCoLDS is Gods Church by interacting with those who believe (and more important than this, the Holy Spirit).

Charity, TOm

TOmNossor · Jan 29, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
Simply because the Official Mormon Church (Inc.) doesn't broadcast it - doesn't make it go away. The fact of the matter is that your church history (the truth) is in those books. You should spend some time and read about your church fathers and what they REALLY TAUGHT.

BTW: I live just a few miles from the REAL MORMONS - The ones that follow that original 'doctrine'. What a hideous group of folks. They marrry the young girls in at around 13 or so ... have 3,4,5 wives and zillions of children and "moooch" off the State and Feds by claiming the children to be b-stards and You and I have to pay for them through food stamps, free health care and much more. This is the REAL mormonism here .... the Corporate (read Inc.) mormonism that you are refering to is the "watered down version" - more palletable to others around .... just a bit less offensive.

GodsWordisTrue:

Simply because the Official Mormon Church (Inc.) doesn't broadcast it - doesn't make it go away. The fact of the matter is that your church history (the truth) is in those books. You should spend some time and read about your church fathers and what they REALLY TAUGHT.

TOm:

Have you done this? I have.

In fact, I have read the earliest of the ECFs for the Catholic, EO, and Reformist church too. Have you read your ECF? Have you seen what they wrote? How about the support of the LDS beliefs from the ECFs? How about the statement by former Protestant now long since dead Catholic Cardinal, To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. Are you Catholic?

I have read the history of my church. I have read the history of our churches. To be deep in history is not to cease to be Mormon.

Do you have any idea what the witness of history is with respect to your faith?

Actually those REAL MORMONS make the same errors you as a Protestant do. They presume that the authority to teach and guide the church is not important. Perhaps those you call REAL MORMONS believe in the dispensation after the final dispensation, but I kind of doubt it.

Protestant split from the Catholics, because they choose to reject some of the directions the Catholic Church went in. Since I believe there was an apostasy, there was some rational for this. The problem was that you cut yourself of and left yourself without a coherent belief structure.

The REAL MORMONS as you call them did made the same error.

Charity, TOm

Breetai · Jan 29, 2004

Wow Emerald Dragon, you're getting a lot of attention around here. It's because we all care about you. Just keep studying as much as possible. Compare everything and study the history of the Mormon church. Read about every demonination. Study the reformation and why Luther and others left the Roman Catholic Church. Read about the council of Trent. Read the creeds of the major denominations and how they got them. You'll discover that they aren't really that different. Read the Bible. When you're done, read the New Testament again. Read about where the books of the Bible came from and the history behind that. Read and study. Read, read, read. You'll discover a lot.

God Bless.

skylark1 · Jan 29, 2004

emerald Dragon said:
The faith and the Truth that is built upon the Cornersotne of Jesus Christ cannot fall. Like the house that is built on solid rock, and not on shifting sand, this house cannot, and will not fall at the whims of men.

This is so true!

I do not know how you can believe this, and also believe in that the early Christian Church fell . . . that there was a complete apostasy.

Breetai · Jan 29, 2004

The problem was that you(Luther, Calvin and co.) cut yourself of and left yourself without a coherent belief structure.

Hardly! We kept the word of God. Solo Scriptura. If it condradicts the Bible, it was gone. Pay for forgiveness! HA! See you later Pope Leo. Luther had no intention of leaving the Roman Catholic Church. Read his letters to Leo X.

How about the statement by former Protestant now long since dead Catholic Cardinal, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” Are you Catholic?

Yup. All Christians are Catholic. He was probably just referring to believing in the traditions of man instead of God, or else he was a fool.

You can only learn if the CoJCoLDS is God’s Church by interacting with those who believe (and more important than this, the Holy Spirit).

Who did I interact with when I prayed the prayer about the BoM like Moroni 10:3-5 invites us to? I was either inspired by the Holy Spirit or a demon. The Holy Spirit would lead me Christ while a demon would lead me away from Christ. I declair that Jesus is Lord. He died on the cross for our sins and then rose from the dead. If that is not Christ, then I had been decieved by a clever demon.

happyinhisgrace · Jan 29, 2004

Unless you are content to have Sunday School teachers and Preachers who are in gross rebellion against God, perhaps child abusers, then you have standards too. That the LDS standards are more exacting I will not apologize for. We know that we have been called to do more than just abstain from the grossest of sins.

I assure you that the LDS church has more than it's fair share of child molestors other just as sinnful people in church leadership. In fact, I have one of those very type of people in my family that has a church calling and attends the temple regularly. Do kid yourself into thinking that Mormon leadership has less detestible leaders in it than other churches do. If anything, they just cover it up more.

Grace

TOmNossor · Jan 29, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
I assure you that the LDS church has more than it's fair share of child molestors other just as sinnful people in church leadership. In fact, I have one of those very type of people in my family that has a church calling and attends the temple regularly. Do kid yourself into thinking that Mormon leadership has less detestible leaders in it than other churches do. If anything, they just cover it up more.

Grace

This has nothing to do with the discussion, but I am sorry your family has problems. The question was do you have standards? Not do all meet them, are there not those who slip through the cracks, ... but is it appropriate to have standards.

Charity, TOm

happyinhisgrace · Jan 29, 2004

Yup. All Christians are Catholic. He was probably just referring to believing in the traditions of man instead of God, or else he was a fool.

All Christians are catholic but not all christians are Catholic.

God Bless,
Grace

happyinhisgrace · Jan 29, 2004

TOmNossor said:
This has nothing to do with the discussion, but I am sorry your family has problems. The question was do you have standards? Not do all meet them, are there not those who slip through the cracks, ... but is it appropriate to have standards.

Charity, TOm

Every family has problems. The reason I pointed this out to you was because from what you said in your posts, it appears that you are saying that the LDS "standards" keep these terrible sorts of people from being in church callings (positions) and that is not true.

Grace

happyinhisgrace · Jan 29, 2004

The problem was that you(Luther, Calvin and co.) cut yourself of and left yourself without a coherent belief structure.

Interesting that you would say that, I got the impression that the Christians on this forum have the belief structure in Christ. What could be more solid than that?

Grace

TOmNossor · Jan 29, 2004

Breetai said:
Hardly! We kept the word of God. Solo Scriptura. If it condradicts the Bible, it was gone. Pay for forgiveness! HA! See you later Pope Leo. Luther had no intention of leaving the Roman Catholic Church. Read his letters to Leo X.

Yup. All Christians are Catholic. He was probably just referring to believing in the traditions of man instead of God, or else he was a fool..

Actually, this was in response to the "REAL MORMON" comment by a misinformed poster.
And no, Newman was very clear. If you wish to subject your best to the Catholic's best, read An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. By a few accounts I have read it has lead Protestants back to Rome.

Sola Scriptura is not a teaching of the Bible. It does not have the historical precedence the RCC embraces. And it is not something I see truly followed in any Protestant Church. It is not a bad idea; it is just new, not followed, and ignores parts of the Bible.

Breetai said:
Who did I interact with when I prayed the prayer about the BoM like Moroni 10:3-5 invites us to? I was either inspired by the Holy Spirit or a demon. The Holy Spirit would lead me Christ while a demon would lead me away from Christ. I declair that Jesus is Lord. He died on the cross for our sins and then rose from the dead. If that is not Christ, then I had been decieved by a clever demon.

I declare the same things. The difference is that I accept that you are a Christian and I refuse to suggest that you interact with demons. You do not afford me the same respect. I am not threatened by your lack of answer. I got my answer and I will not make up theories as why you did not.

In fact, do you believe in a God that loves all his children/creations? So do I.

Do you believe in a God that knows the end from the beginning and can be a guide for his children? So do I.

Do you believe in a God who answers prayers? So do I.

Do you believe in a God who wants for us to turn over our will to him so that we might have joy in this life and the next? So do I

Charity, TOm

TOmNossor · Jan 29, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
Every family has problems. The reason I pointed this out to you was because from what you said in your posts, it appears that you are saying that the LDS "standards" keep these terrible sorts of people from being in church callings (positions) and that is not true.

Grace

I am sorry if that was what I implied.
I meant that standards are appropriate we are just discussing how exacting the standards are.
I intended to make no statements about relative righteousness.

Charity, TOm

skylark1 · Jan 29, 2004

Breetai said:
Who did I interact with when I prayed the prayer about the BoM like Moroni 10:3-5 invites us to? I was either inspired by the Holy Spirit or a demon. The Holy Spirit would lead me Christ while a demon would lead me away from Christ. I declair that Jesus is Lord. He died on the cross for our sins and then rose from the dead. If that is not Christ, then I had been decieved by a clever demon.

I do not believe that if someone prays this prayer that they are either inspired by the Holy Spirit or a demon. I think that it is possible for our own desires to provoke a response. If we want something to be true or false, it is possible to feel that God has confirmed this. So, there is a third option. I believe that there are other options as well.

Breetai · Jan 29, 2004

By a few accounts I have read it has lead Protestants back to Rome.

HAHA, I believe it! I'm not that far from Rome myself. I consider myself closer to the RC Church then to a lot of protestant demoninations.

I took an internet questionaire about which denomination I'm closest in belief too. It's from http://selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=christiandenom:

#1Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod
#2Evangelical Lutheran Church
#3Methodist/Weslyian Church
#4Roman Catholic Church
#5Episcopal/Anglican Church

It was actually a pretty fun poll. Not really informative, I already knew what the results would be. I think that a lot of the different demonination have their emphases misplaced.

In fact, do you believe in a God that loves all his children/creations? So do I.

Do you believe in a God that knows the end from the beginning and can be a guide for his children? So do I.

Do you believe in a God who answers prayers? So do I.

Do you believe in a God who wants for us to turn over our will to him so that we might have joy in this life and the next? So do I.

Do you pray to Jesus? I do.

Do you honor Him equally with the Father as Jesus said to do in John 5:23? I do.

Do you call Jesus your Lord and your God? I do.

flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

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