flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

[Wrigley]

And I am sure it is greatly offensive to God that we use water as opposed to wine and/or grape juice... Perhaps if water was more typically drinkable in Christ's area of the world & time in history, He would have preferred it as well.

Give it a rest Grace, if the LDS church doesnt work for you, it doesnt work for you.

it doesn't work period. For anyone.

 

[Wrigley]

I never denied my parents the right to attend my wedding, infact...I got married out of the temple so they could attend (my mother was not 'temple worthy' at the time)

Weddings are about the parents just as much as the child. Marriage is about the couple, weddings are a celebration for EVERYONE!

I'm not married, but have I've stood up in quite a few weddings. And you are correct, a wedding is about the family, the couple, the parents, brothers, sisters, etc.. It is a celebration of the joy of what God have brought togather and what is starting and what He is teaching us.

The marriage is a lifetime. And with God at the center, will be blessed.

I always wonder about how "to death do us part" leads to eternal marriage, but, that's another topic.

 

[TOmNossor]

it doesn't work period. For anyone.

Wrigley,

By this, what do you mean?

Are all LDS stupid in that they do not understand their faith and the issues you seem so willing to harp on?

Are all LDS unprincipled and evil in that their moral framework is flawed thus they drag down society.

You couldn’t possibly mean that the LDS church does not lead to the eternal salvation of LDS people, because as a Calvinist you do not think any church can touch the non-elect or any of the elect could refuse the witness of Christ. So this isn’t what you mean.



In fact, since you are a Calvinist you should thank God for the CoJCoLDS. Without the non-Christian CoJCoLDS all of us non-elect LDS would be left to the evils of Atheism or Agnosticism. Then not only would we disagree with you on some theological issues, but we would be opposed to the moral stands that God has communicated through the Bible.



Actually, since all non-elect are dam*ed regardless of anything, you should support fallen religions so as to provide the non-elect with a place to become moral people before they burn in he11 for all eternity.

You could promote the LDS church and you would not have to worry about deceiving the elect, because you believe in unconditional election so the elect cannot refuse Christ even if they tried.



One last thing, if I understand correctly, as a Calvinist you are called to spread the good news not because of your ability to effect the salvation of anyone since this is all pre-destined, but merely because this is what God asks his Calvinist children to do. I have seen little evidence that you spread the good news. The majority of your posts are one line ridicule or support of other posters. Do you really think this is what the elect of God are to do with respect to spreading the good news.



Are you sure the world might not be better served by you lifting up your fellow man and developing Christian love. Of course were I Calvinist, I would believe you couldn’t help but lift others and spread Christian love. IF you are among the elect that is.



And since I am not a Calvinist, I extend this call to you, because I believe you can change the way in which you interact with your fellow man. And I believe those who choose to go outside of what is fun and comfortable for them and express love will develop true Christian love. And of course I believe this is one of the ways we can subordinate our will to the will of God. Who do you serve when you ridicule and throw out your curt one line posts?



Charity, TOm

 

[happyinhisgrace]

You couldn’t possibly mean that the LDS church does not lead to the eternal salvation of LDS people, because as a Calvinist you do not think any church can touch the non-elect or any of the elect could refuse the witness of Christ. So this isn’t what you mean.
Wrigley, aren't you so glad there are folks on the forum to tell you what you really mean? LOL There has been so much of this "what you mean" stuff going on the last few days, I can't help but wonder why these prophetic people don't start a business and make a bunch of money with their "all seeing eyes".

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

In fact, since you are a Calvinist you should thank God for the CoJCoLDS. Without the non-Christian CoJCoLDS all of us non-elect LDS would be left to the evils of Atheism or Agnosticism. Then not only would we disagree with you on some theological issues, but we would be opposed to the moral stands that God has communicated through the Bible.

Actually, since all non-elect are dam*ed regardless of anything, you should support fallen religions so as to provide the non-elect with a place to become moral people before they burn in he11 for all eternity.


Wrigley, I don't know a whole lot about Calvinism but isn't the Calvanist belief that those who will be saved will be lead to truth, that they would not belong to a false belief system but rather be "pre-destined" to walk in Biblical truth while they are still alive?

Grace

 

[TOmNossor]

Wrigley, I don't know a whole lot about Calvinism but isn't the Calvanist belief that those who will be saved will be lead to truth, that they would not belong to a false belief system but rather be "pre-destined" to walk in Biblical truth while they are still alive?

Grace

HappyinHisgrace,



I am not a Calvinist, but when Wrigley accused me of not understanding and asked me a question. I answered and he did not respond by repeating that I didn’t understand. This is postive afformation from him as I read it.



So I will tell you a little about what I understand in the interim, but as Bishop Stendahl says, you must learn about a religion from its adherents because those who reject it are liable to bear false witness. I will attempt to not do this.



A Calvinist believes in unconditional election. The elect will be lead to Christ. They could not reject Christ even if they tried to. The work of salvation is 100% the work of Christ. The believer does not choose in any way to believe, they are predestined to believe.

The non-elect cannot choose Christ. No amount of prayer, seeking, or love from their elect neighbor can illuminate the non-elect such that they choose Christ and are not thrust down to he11 upon death.



Again, I encourage you to learn about Calvinism from Calvinists.

Upon quick glance this looks like a pretty solid source.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2057/tulip.html



Charity, TOm

 

[happyinhisgrace]

So I will tell you a little about what I understand in the interim, but as Bishop Stendahl says, you must learn about a religion from its adherents because those who reject it are liable to bear false witness. I will attempt to not do this.

Well, that doesn't exactly make me excited to read his work, the above is a rediculous statement to say the least. Just because one doesn't embrace a particular belief, does not mean they will lie about it....that is just flat out stupidity in thought.

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Again, I encourage you to learn about Calvinism from Calvinists.

Ya, this is pretty much what I was doing when I addressed the questions to Wrigley.

Grace

 

[TOmNossor]

Again, I encourage you to learn about Calvinism from Calvinists.

Ya, this is pretty much what I was doing when I addressed the questions to Wrigley.

Grace

I am sorry I was not helpful.
Charity, TOm

 

[Wrigley]

In fact, since you are a Calvinist you should thank God for the CoJCoLDS. Without the non-Christian CoJCoLDS all of us non-elect LDS would be left to the evils of Atheism or Agnosticism. Then not only would we disagree with you on some theological issues, but we would be opposed to the moral stands that God has communicated through the Bible.

Actually, since all non-elect are dam*ed regardless of anything, you should support fallen religions so as to provide the non-elect with a place to become moral people before they burn in he11 for all eternity.


Wrigley, I don't know a whole lot about Calvinism but isn't the Calvanist belief that those who will be saved will be lead to truth, that they would not belong to a false belief system but rather be "pre-destined" to walk in Biblical truth while they are still alive?

Grace

Check out the Reformed section on CF, you'll see some good discussions of Reformed theology.

From what I've read from your posts, there isn't much of Reformed theology you would disagree with.

And honestly, this is not the forum for a discussion of of Reformed theology. Tom is just trying to divert the focus of the thread.

I'll email you with some info later today when I have more time.

 

[Wrigley]

You couldn’t possibly mean that the LDS church does not lead to the eternal salvation of LDS people, because as a Calvinist you do not think any church can touch the non-elect or any of the elect could refuse the witness of Christ. So this isn’t what you mean.
Wrigley, aren't you so glad there are folks on the forum to tell you what you really mean? LOL There has been so much of this "what you mean" stuff going on the last few days, I can't help but wonder why these prophetic people don't start a business and make a bunch of money with their "all seeing eyes".

Grace

I am not a universalist. I know mormon theology is universalist in nature. All people go to some level of heaven, so really it doesn't matter what you believe.

When I say mormon theology doesn't work for anyone, I mean just that. It won't save anyone.

Now there is an underlying comment in that post you replied to that only Calvinists will be saved. Not true at all. There will be Methodists, Roman Catholics, Weslyians, Calvary Chapel folk, Baptists, and Calvinists saved. At the same time, there will be some who profess themselves to be Christians of all those I named, who won't be saved. I can only go by what Jesus said in Matthew, when He told us that some who cry His name will be told to depart, that He does not know them.

Mormon theology does not teach truth. It does not worship the Christian God as He revealed Himself to us in the Bible. It is a false gospel.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I am not a universalist. I know mormon theology is universalist in nature. All people go to some level of heaven, so really it doesn't matter what you believe.

When I say mormon theology doesn't work for anyone, I mean just that. It won't save anyone.

Now there is an underlying comment in that post you replied to that only Calvinists will be saved. Not true at all. There will be Methodists, Roman Catholics, Weslyians, Calvary Chapel folk, Baptists, and Calvinists saved. At the same time, there will be some who profess themselves to be Christians of all those I named, who won't be saved. I can only go by what Jesus said in Matthew, when He told us that some who cry His name will be told to depart, that He does not know them.

Mormon theology does not teach truth. It does not worship the Christian God as He revealed Himself to us in the Bible. It is a false gospel.

Wrigley, I mixed his and my comments together. My comments were only at the bottem half of the quote...sorry for the confusion.

God Bless-
Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Check out the Reformed section on CF, you'll see some good discussions of Reformed theology.

From what I've read from your posts, there isn't much of Reformed theology you would disagree with.

And honestly, this is not the forum for a discussion of of Reformed theology. Tom is just trying to divert the focus of the thread.

I'll email you with some info later today when I have more time.

Thank you for the info. I will check out the reformed sites.

God Bless-
Grace

 

[Svt4Him]

These are from my notes from Mike Griffith:

Sorry, when I read that, I thought you had said "These are from my notes from Mike Griffith"

Good grief!

Deal with the evidence and try not to whine about how or where I got the quotes. I told you I got the notes from Griffith, AND I DID. I had no idea this was posted online or else I would have posted the link. So how on earth is this being in any way "dishonest"? To use this as a means to attack my morality only reflects poorly on the two of you. You're not thinking critcially at all, only looking for excuses to attack the messenger instead of having to deal with the message.

 

[emerald Dragon]

We don't believe that ALL people will go to some level on heaven-just that those who knew God and Christ, and now seek to destroy Their message are going to an eternal darkness.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons talk about "the Church" more than they talk about Christ. Mormons are obsessed with works. Exaltation is based on works. Worthiness to be ordained to an office of either priesthood is based on works. Worthiness to enter the temple is based on works (drinking a cup of coffee once a week can keep you out). Of course, Mormons are elitist! They know how many laws and ordinances they've had to obey, that the rest of the world is possibly/probably ignoring. Even if a Protestant claimed to be a full-tithe payer it wouldn't have been paid to the Lord's Church(i. e. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.). But Mormons are expected to show humility to Gentiles(non-LDS) in order to bring them into Mormonism.

 

[Rescued One]

Interesting quote:

Don't try to tear down other people's religion about their ears, Build up your own perfect structure of truth, and invite your listeners to enter in and enjoy it's glories.
-Brigham Young

I have a few interesting ones, too!

We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. Men talk about civilization; but I do not want to say much about that, for I have seen enough of it. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century. - John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 167

Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ. - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:287

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171


"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

The gods of Christendom are just as false as the gods of the Assyrians -Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p55

 

[fatboys]

Mormons talk about "the Church" more than they talk about Christ. Mormons are obsessed with works. Exaltation is based on works. Worthiness to be ordained to an office of either priesthood is based on works. Worthiness to enter the temple is based on works (drinking a cup of coffee once a week can keep you out). Of course, Mormons are elitist! They know how many laws and ordinances they've had to obey, that the rest of the world is possibly/probably ignoring. Even if a Protestant claimed to be a full-tithe payer it wouldn't have been paid to the Lord's Church(i. e. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.). But Mormons are expected to show humility to Gentiles(non-LDS) in order to bring them into Mormonism.

FB: Have you had a bad mormon day today?

 

[twhite982]

Mormons talk about "the Church" more than they talk about Christ. Mormons are obsessed with works.

Which ones?
The fundamentalists?

Exaltation is based on works. Worthiness to be ordained to an office of either priesthood is based on works. Worthiness to enter the temple is based on works (drinking a cup of coffee once a week can keep you out). Of course, Mormons are elitist! They know how many laws and ordinances they've had to obey, that the rest of the world is possibly/probably ignoring. Even if a Protestant claimed to be a full-tithe payer it wouldn't have been paid to the Lord's Church(i. e. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.). But Mormons are expected to show humility to Gentiles(non-LDS) in order to bring them into Mormonism.

Please stick around and show some "evidence" of LDS church doctrine stating this.

TW

 

[Phoenix]

GWT,

From one non Mormon to another - Give it a rest. Cutting and pasting from websites will get you nowhere. Those posting here, it seems to me, will gladly discuss issues/questions with you if you ask.