Flood, literal or not?

[AV1611VET]

How do you know it isn't the Qur'an, or Oahspe, or the Book of Mormon? Those books all hold the same claim the Bible holds. They all present fulfilled prophecy. How do you separate the Bible out and proclaim it and only it as the word of God?

Are we going to keep repeating ourselves, Beastt?

Let's go through it again:

How do I know it's not the Qur'an?

Simple --- the Qur'an was written by one man --- after the fact. The Arabs, who were already in existence, did not write their destiny ahead of time.

How do I know it's not the Oahspe?

Oahspe: A Kosmon Bible in the Words of Jehovih and his Angel Embassadors (sic) is a book announcing new revelations from God, which was produced by John Ballou Newbrough (1828-1891) by automatic writing, and which was first published by Newbrough in 1882.

Inspiration ended in 96 AD --- and automatic writing is of the occult.

How do I know it's not the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon was written by one man after 96 AD., and that one man claims he was a prophet and, of course, there are no more prophets after 96 AD.

How do I know it's the Bible?

The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years, and not confined to just the lifetime of one man. It has 40+ authors, from a variety of backgrounds and occupations, from three different continents, in three different languages.

Thus the potential to discredit the Bible was very high (in fact, it carries the highest potential of incredibility of any book ever written), yet each part fits like a hand in a glove.

Embedded in its text are hundreds of prophecies (history written in advance), and fulfilled with a 100% rate of accuracy.

Now how do you suppose that is?

 

[AV1611VET]

Ah. Telepathecally.

No --- telepathy is brain-to-brain --- this is heart-to-heart.

 

[AV1611VET]

So...

1: The Bible is True because -
2: The Bible says it's true -
3: Which is true because -
4: Go to 1.

Do you understand why this is fallacious?

No --- the Jews are the outside source that confirms Scripture.

 

[AV1611VET]

Which Pharaoh is that? There are none at the bottom of the Red Sea.

He probably drowned and got eaten --- look for his chariot.

 

[FishFace]

How do I know it's not the Qur'an?

Simple --- the Qur'an was written by one man --- after the fact. The Arabs, who were already in existence, did not write their destiny ahead of time.

All the Gospels were written after the fact. Why does writing by one man make something false?

How do I know it's not the Oahspe?

Inspiration ended in 96 AD --- and automatic writing is of the occult.

How do you know it ended when you say it did?

Thus the potential to discredit the Bible was very high (in fact, it carries the highest potential of incredibility of any book ever written), yet each part fits like a hand in a glove.

Except for all the internal contradictions, and the contradictions with evidence.

Embedded in its text are hundreds of prophecies (history written in advance), and fulfilled with a 100% rate of accuracy.

Show me one which could not have been fulfilled by the fulfiller, or the person who documented the fulfillment, writing for the prophesy?
Then explain who in Jesus' time is still alive today, who is still alive before he returns.

 

[flatworm]

The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years, and not confined to just the lifetime of one man. It has 40+ authors, from a variety of backgrounds and occupations, from three different continents, in three different languages.

Thus the potential to discredit the Bible was very high (in fact, it carries the highest potential of incredibility of any book ever written), yet each part fits like a hand in a glove.

You are aware that many of these authors had access to the earlier texts and were motivated and capable of making their writings fit, right?

Also, please tell me you know that the Bible as you know it was assembled by believers centuries after the fact from a larger pool of writings? Obviously these later "editors" were motivated and capable of throwing out what didn't fit.

Inspiration ended in 96 AD

So the Bible's compilation was not inspired?

 

[lemmings]

Thus the potential to discredit the Bible was very high (in fact, it carries the highest potential of incredibility of any book ever written), yet each part fits like a hand in a glove.

The website http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ has managed to find numerous counter dictions, absurdities, factual inaccuracies within a literal translation of the Bible. How does this fit like a glove again?

 

[thaumaturgy]

You know my advice here --- need I repeat it? --- (Look harder!)

Imagine going into the doctor and demanding that he find that your stomach ache is caused by cancer. The doctor says "nah, it's most likely just eating too much sugary cereal".

You think it is cancer because a friend of your dad's told you it was probably cancer. So you don't let the doctor off so easily, and demand he run a battery of tests to make sure he finds cancer.

The doctor runs an exhaustive battery of tests and says "I don't find any evidence of cancer" to which you reply, "Well, clearly you can't have looked in EVERY PLACE in my body, at EVERY CELL, right?"

The doctor agrees that he did not personally view every single cell in your body.

You have put the challenge before him to prove the statement "There is no cancer in youry body", which is logically impossible. Can't PROVE a negative.

NOW, here we have the concept of a GLOBAL FLOOD. This is actually almost possible to positively disprove. A global flood means a clear correlatable layer exists at all points on the planet (or at every point where that strata exists). Not just that you are looking to see some random point but that these points are correlatable across vast swaths of the planet.

Geologists do this already. I personal spent 8 months sitting in an office in St. Louis, MO with a bunch of well logs and correlated layers across vast swaths of Southern Illinois in association with some of the Belleville Underground Coal Mine.

In fact, some of the coal layers I was working near can themselves be correlated nearly 100 miles to the north to another major coal mine.

Scientists can and DO require the ability to trace rocks across vast swaths of land.

Unfortunately in 400 years of the field of Geology no evidence has ever occured for a global flood.

BUT, here's the cool part, we DO have an example of a near global event that left data all over the planet! The impact of the asteroid/meteor at the end of the Cretaceous that probably wiped out the dinosaurs! It left a rare element called IRIDIUM in a fine layer all over parts of the planet. In some places this "iridium anomaly" can pin point one moment in time!

Even neater, we can find evidence of mass extinctions of animals at a variety of points in the geologic column at vastly different time scales.

So we KNOW what a global flood would look like in the rock record. We've seen global events recorded, and we know how to correlate.

We KNOW what is to be searched for (because we know what "flood deposits" on a local scale look like too!), yet in nearly half a millenium we have never found one shred of even a half-way believable piece of evidence that a Global Flood occured.

Since we've scoured the earth and found nothing, where do you propose we look next?

 

[FishFace]

Since we've scoured the earth and found nothing, where do you propose we look next?

Let me guess! Please? I guess.. Cindarella, no, Odyssey, no, Lord of the Rings, wait...

 

[Nathan Poe]

No --- telepathy is brain-to-brain --- this is heart-to-heart.

So, where, if anywhere, does the brain fit into the equation?

 

[Nathan Poe]

No --- the Jews are the outside source that confirms Scripture.

You mean the same Jews that look at the Gospels of Jesus Christ and say "Nope, that didn't happen"?

 

[Nathan Poe]

He probably drowned and got eaten --- look for his chariot.

A name, AV. Give a name, if you can.

The dead Pharaohs are all accounted for.

 

[AV1611VET]

Show me one which could not have been fulfilled by the fulfiller...

What kind of request is that? They were all fulfilled by a fulfiller. The nature of a prophecy is that you have someone conveying a prophecy, and someone fulfilling it.

...or the person who documented the fulfillment, writing for the prophesy?

[bible]Ezra 1:1[/bible]
[bible]Matthew 1:22-23[/bible]
[bible]Matthew 27:35[/bible]
[bible]John 19:24[/bible]

Then explain who in Jesus' time is still alive today, who is still alive before he returns.

I assume you're referring to this:

[bible]Matthew 16:28[/bible]

Fulfilled in:

[bible]Matthew 17:1[/bible]

 

[LittleNipper]

You mean the same Jews that look at the Gospels of Jesus Christ and say "Nope, that didn't happen"?

Actually, be rejecting JESUS , they rejected the entire Old Testament.

 

[FishFace]

What kind of request is that? They were all fulfilled by a fulfiller. The nature of a prophecy is that you have someone conveying a prophecy, and someone fulfilling it.

Sorry, typo, replace "the" with "a."

I assume you're referring to this:

[bible]Matthew 16:28[/bible]

Fulfilled in:

[bible]Matthew 17:1[/bible]

Jesus "comes in his kingdom?" No. That implies that Jesus will take up his reign - it implies the second coming. Note, by the way, the word, "some." How many of Jesus' disciples died between then and the six days afterwards?
Some implies quite strongly that some also would've died.

And check:

[bible]Luke 9:27[/bible]

Obviously, Jesus was talking about the second coming - if he spoke at all.

 

[flatworm]

Actually, be rejecting JESUS , they rejected the entire Old Testament.

Non sequitur.

 

[AV1611VET]

You are aware that many of these authors had access to the earlier texts and were motivated and capable of making their writings fit, right?

Yes, I am aware of that.

Matthew, for instance, quotes heavily from OT Scriptures.

I disagree however with your words "were motivated". That speaks of deception.

Also, please tell me you know that the Bible as you know it was assembled by believers centuries after the fact from a larger pool of writings?

No, I'm not. These meetings were not held to determine what was the Word of God:

1. If a book was written by inspiration, it became canonical the minute it was completed.
2. All of the books of the OT were quoted in the NT, except for Esther, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon --- none of the books of the Apocrypha, however, are mentioned.
3. The NT books had to pass a threefold test: a) either be written, or backed, by an Apostle (Peter backed Mark, and Luke backed Paul); b) they had to be circulated and accepted by the majority of the NT churches; and c) they had to be in agreement with each other, and the OT. By the 2nd century AD, only the 27 books of the NT had met this criteria.
4. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:16, referred to the letters of Paul as "Scripture", without waiting for some church council to be held.

[bible]2 Peter 3:16[/bible]

 

[fossilman]

. . . . [snip] . . . .

NOW, here we have the concept of a GLOBAL FLOOD. This is actually almost possible to positively disprove. A global flood means a clear correlatable layer exists at all points on the planet (or at every point where that strata exists). Not just that you are looking to see some random point but that these points are correlatable across vast swaths of the planet.

Geologists do this already. I personal spent 8 months sitting in an office in St. Louis, MO with a bunch of well logs and correlated layers across vast swaths of Southern Illinois in association with some of the Belleville Underground Coal Mine.

In fact, some of the coal layers I was working near can themselves be correlated nearly 100 miles to the north to another major coal mine.

Scientists can and DO require the ability to trace rocks across vast swaths of land.

Unfortunately in 400 years of the field of Geology no evidence has ever occured for a global flood.

BUT, here's the cool part, we DO have an example of a near global event that left data all over the planet! The impact of the asteroid/meteor at the end of the Cretaceous that probably wiped out the dinosaurs! It left a rare element called IRIDIUM in a fine layer all over parts of the planet. In some places this "iridium anomaly" can pin point one moment in time!

Even neater, we can find evidence of mass extinctions of animals at a variety of points in the geologic column at vastly different time scales.

So we KNOW what a global flood would look like in the rock record. We've seen global events recorded, and we know how to correlate.

We KNOW what is to be searched for (because we know what "flood deposits" on a local scale look like too!), yet in nearly half a millenium we have never found one shred of even a half-way believable piece of evidence that a Global Flood occured.

Since we've scoured the earth and found nothing, where do you propose we look next?

Back to the OP.

What thaumatergy said.

Coal geology rocks!

fossilman
in the Warrior Coal Field where we have 3,000 feet of Westphalian A coal cycles and not a hint of global flood deposits.

 

[AV1611VET]

The website http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ has managed to find numerous counter dictions, absurdities, factual inaccuracies within a literal translation of the Bible. How does this fit like a glove again?

Without going to that site, I'm sure they're the garden variety dime-a-dozen cheap shots.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Back to the OP.

What thaumatergy said.

Coal geology rocks!

fossilman
in the Warrior Coal Field where we have 3,000 feet of Westphalian A coal cycles and not a hint of global flood deposits.

to Coal Geology.

(I miss my days in coal. These days I work in industrial chemical R&D, but I'm the only chemist at work with rocks in my cubicle!)