Flood Geology

Originally posted by Josephus
Good question. Perhaps best answered by asking another: Why are there ice caps at the poles now? If the poles are the DRIEST places on earth in regards to snowfall, how did they form there in the first place - if not ffrom some SUDDEN event?

Well, really there are a couple of continental ice sheets. One is at the South Pole. It is there because the little snow and ice that falls never thaws and it cannot evaporate because the air is probably saturated for the ambient temperature. There are other large ice sheets, such as Greenland that are not at either pole.

In reality, the ice sheets probably formed where a combination of moisture and temperature were correct and they could begin to march away from arctic and temperate zones. For instances, some areas were so dry even thought near the poles (such as the North Slope of Alaska) that they were never glaciated. And yet we did have continetal ice sheets covering the north central states. Continental ice sheets never reached equatorial regions.
 
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Josephus

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"evolution occurs so rapidly we should expect to see MAJOR changes just within our life-span,"

You can see it in a single generation, though I wouldn't call it the evolution of a new species. Take a white woman, marry a black guy. They have a mixed child. That mixed child marries another mixed person. The offspring of the mixed couple stand the equal chance of being fully black, or fully white.

Take 8 such people on an ark 4000 years ago. Include genetic information just as mixed, and results as quickly expected: a Whiter Man, a Darker Man, a Shorter 'Asian' Man. Three men, three sons of Noah the bible records as being the fathers of the Europeans/Russians, Middle Eastern and Asians, and Africans. Three primary groups. Just look at the diversity within them.
 
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Josephus

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"The modern scientific assumption has evidence from ice cores, fossil changes, radiometric dating, etc.."

The modern scientific assumptions you refer to here rely on things that didn't exist or were not affected, until AFTER the flood occured. So looking for evidence of a flood at the 4k mark in an ice core is ridiculous if the entire core didn't even exist until after the flood.
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
&quot;But should there not also be evidence of the flood itself, in the form of flood-like deposits in one major stratum?&quot;

I wouldn't imagine so: not if the flood, and the destruction of the continents were so affected as to be produced, I'd imagine the strata to be uniform worldwide...but broken. Seriously broken, in many parts.

Why would they be broken? They should only be broken by subsequent volcanic activity right? So each break should be characterized by local volcanic activity in the corresponding stratum?

The idea is, why haven't you thought about this before? Seriously consider the idea. Work out the problems. You will find your own answers.


You respond as if you do not even know what Creation Theory proposes. Do you even know what the Creation/Flood theory is?

I know about it somewhat. It is very malleable, and changes depending on what criticism is applied. But what it is and what you believe about it are two different things. You strike me as a seriously curious person who would like to learn more about the world we live in. The professional creationsists who sell Flood Geology may slip and slide around every issue, but I think your are astute enough to see what is happening. I think if you really look at the theory, and have access to the counter-arguments and the reasons the "evidence" for the theory doesn't hold up, that you will probably change your mind. I approach this in a respectful way. I don't assume that your hypothesis is the same as the hackneyed theory sold by professional creationists in their deceptive literature. I think you may have come across the creationist arguments before, and that you may have been fooled by them, and that you may have incorporated elements of them into your own thinking, but it is important to me to argue about what you really believe, not just what I assume you believe...
 
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Josephus

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"Still, why would an eruption of underground water split the plates down the middle, instead of blowing big holes in them? What do you make of the explanations conventional geology gives for the existence of the mid-atlantic ridge? If your hypothesis about water erupting from there is correct, what physical characeristics could we expect it to have?"

Now that is an interesting question. Do you have ideas?
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
&quot;The modern scientific assumption has evidence from ice cores, fossil changes, radiometric dating, etc..&quot;

The modern scientific assumptions you refer to here rely on things that didn't exist or were not affected, until AFTER the flood occured. So looking for evidence of a flood at the 4k mark in an ice core is ridiculous if the entire core didn't even exist until after the flood.

If the ice wasn't there before the flood, we couldn't drill to the 4k mark.
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
&quot;The modern scientific assumption has evidence from ice cores, fossil changes, radiometric dating, etc..&quot;

The modern scientific assumptions you refer to here rely on things that didn't exist or were not affected, until AFTER the flood occured. So looking for evidence of a flood at the 4k mark in an ice core is ridiculous if the entire core didn't even exist until after the flood.

Ummm, who said anything about 4ky ice cores (besides you, that is)? They go back a lot longer than that!
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
&quot;Still, why would an eruption of underground water split the plates down the middle, instead of blowing big holes in them? What do you make of the explanations conventional geology gives for the existence of the mid-atlantic ridge? If your hypothesis about water erupting from there is correct, what physical characeristics could we expect it to have?&quot;

Now that is an interesting question. Do you have ideas?

No, it isn't my theory.
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
Well, I was hoping to engage you to possibly think as I do.

Not possible. Could you tell us why the rifts formed where they did? Where did the water come from? How did the water get there to form the springs? What kind of rocks formed at the time of these eruptions?
 
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Josephus

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"Not possible."

Oh I disagree, unless you are unwilling to try. :)


"Could you tell us why the rifts formed where they did?"

Well, let's see. The Gulf of Mexico, the site of the world's largest meteor impact, and compatible for Flood Theory, is no where near a fracture point. In fact, it's almost dead center from the nearest fractures. I wonder... if we can make a hypthetical experiment. A water balloon. Believing the surface to be uniformly strong in all areas, no matter how hard you smack your hand down on this balloon, even in mid-air (with enough force to make it explode) the breaks of the balloon would be almost equatorily split from the center of impact to the opposite impact axis. But if the water balloon were non-uniform, meaning there were peaks of strength, and areas of weakness, then the areas of greatest weakness from a distance of equatorial strength would be the locations of a split.

For example, take a mountain on this figurative water ballon, resting right on the equidistant locale of impact and pole of that impact... the energy would be transferred to the lowest point of resistance from that mountain.. to say, the nearby valley. I don't know, but thoughtfully it seems sound. Anyone got a way to prove this?

The analogy of course is if the earth's crust was pressured to "rest" above a vast, mostly uniform underground layer of water, if that crust were ever to recieve the energy of the impact (say a large asteroid), the water layer would act as a shock absorber, but in the place of greatest pressure (the equitorial distance from the point of impact) would erupt outwards if unable to contain the energy. Of course, the asteroid would leave a very large crater.
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
&quot;[re: massive oil fields] Those we have, but what do they have to do with the flood?&quot;

Oil is from the decay of fossils. Oil fields would theoretically then be a previous site of a massive organic fossil deposits. Logic would argue two possible scenarios: the fossils were gathered there due to gravitational forces of collecting basins when the debris from the flood drained into the oceans, or that they were evidence of massive organic deposits once flourishing in that region before they died, became fossils, and became the oil we now use. The idea that the Middle East is the cradel and start of civilization is nothing new. Expecting huge oil deposits in that region would be expected following 5000 years of human history, and at least 3000 years since everything in that region was once suddenly killed.

Petroleum does not come from fossils. Fossils are made out of rock. It is impossible for fossils to become petroleum, which is a hydrocarbon. Petroleum is the result of decomposed organic matter that is compressed and heated inside the earth for millions of years. Fossils on the other hand are the result of organic material being replaced by minerals while maintaining the original shape of the object.

Origin of Oil

I might also point out that Glenn R. Morton has personal testimony concerning the uselessness of young-earth creation in the oil industry. Transformation…

Eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology had turned out to be true. I took a poll of all 8 of the graduates from ICR’s school who had gone into the oil industry and were working for various companies. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true?"

That is a very simple question. One man, who worked for a major oil company, grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. No one else could either.
 
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Originally posted by RufusAtticus

Petroleum does not come from fossils. Fossils are made out of rock. It is impossible for fossils to become petroleum, which is a hydrocarbon. Petroleum is the result of decomposed organic matter that is compressed and heated inside the earth for millions of years.

It only takes thousands of years to be produced.

http://www.stanford.edu/~queelah/WebEnergy.html

Petroleum is only available in finite or limited quantities because it takes thousands of years for it to be produced.

No, no, I'm sorry, the stuff accumulates over thousands of years, but it takes millions of years to form.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4003/63838

As more micro-organisms die in the area, an enormous amount of decomposing animal material could accumulate over a period of hundreds or thousands of years. [...] Over millions of years, the animal material at the bottom of the pile would become so compressed that the hydrogen and carbon that composed the micro-organisms when they were alive would become long chains of hydrocarbons.

No, wait, we don't know if it takes thousands of years to form or millions of years to form, but at least we know that the materials themselves are millions of years old.

http://www.appea.com.au/edusite/html/faq.html

Petroleum originates from the organic remains of plants and animals millions of years old.

How many millions? From 65 million to 500 million, of course.

http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q1161.html

Radioactive dating of the rocks in which oil deposits occur span the range from the Cambrian Era to the Cretaceous Era between 65 million and 500 million years ago.

No, no, I meant to say from 65 million to 213 million.

http://whyfiles.org/100oil/2.html

most commercial petroleum was generated from rocks that are between 65 million and 213 million years old.

Did I say 213 million? I meant to say that almost all of it is 65 million years old.

http://www.geosc.psu.edu/People/Faculty/FacultyPages/Kubicki/fossilfuel.html

Migration or continued burial over geological time makes almost all petroleum found less than 65 million years old.

And did I say that it was from 65 million years to 500 million years? I meant to say from just 1 million years to 500 million years.

http://www.geosc.psu.edu/People/Faculty/FacultyPages/Kubicki/fossilfuel.html

The oil-forming process is slow, however, so no petroleum deposits are less than 1 million years old.

Well, make that just a few days old, if you start with oil shale and make it yourself -- that is, if you can afford it.

http://www.geosc.psu.edu/People/Faculty/FacultyPages/Kubicki/fossilfuel.html

Current technology would require crushing and heating the oil shale to 500°C which is very expensive and not economically feasible with current oil prices so low.

On the other hand, petroleum may not be organic at all.

http://whyfiles.org/100oil/2.html

a few renegade scientists claim that petroleum has an inorganic origin
 
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Sorry, Nick, oil takes millions of years to form, from the American Petroleum Institute, which I would wager is more accurate than your link:

Q: Where do oil and natural gas come from?

They come from the Earth. In prehistoric times, tiny plants and animals lived in the sea. When those creatures died, they sank into layers of mud and sand. Over time, the Earth's crust buckled and put those deposits under great heat and pressure. Over millions of years, those deposits turned into chemicals called hydrocarbons. That's where petroleum -- actually, oil and natural gas -- comes from.

Small amounts of oil and natural gas seep through the Earth, or naturally come up through the ground. But almost all oil and natural gas are found deep underground in the tiny holes of rocks. Geologists and engineers use high-tech equipment to search for petroleum. When they think they've found it, they drill. If there really is oil or gas there, it's forced to the surface.
 
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Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Sorry, Nick, oil takes millions of years to form, from the American Petroleum Institute, which I would wager is more accurate than your link:

That's "links."

Regardless, that's what I like about science. There are so many "facts" to choose from that we can disagree and both be satisfied that we're right.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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-=Quote Josephu=-
>Well, let's see. The Gulf of Mexico, the site of the >world's largest meteor impact, and compatible for Flood >Theory, is no where near a fracture point. In fact, it's >almost dead center from the nearest fractures.

So the Chicxulub crater is the impact that caused the flood? If so we should find flood evedence above it and verry little strata bellow the K/T boundry line caused by that and maybe a few other closely timed impacts... The last time I checked my geology books the strata was much deeper than that so you lost that impact as the flood impact.

It's not that I dissagree with the possibility of the flood, but I do have a problem for the "young earth" flood.
:sorry:

W L Wildermuth
 
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Originally posted by npetreley


It only takes thousands of years to be produced.
<snip>

If you read all of the links you posted, (I did), you would find that each of those sites is in fair agreement on the question of how oil and other hydrocarbons are formed and how long it takes. Pulling out numbers randomly from them (most oil is 65 million years old versus oil takes thousands of years to produce) and saying they are in disagreement is just silly. Besides... you still have work to do in this thread. Why are you cluttering up the thread about evidence for the flood with obfuscation against evolution? You have an empty thread sitting in this forum with an open invitation to show why conventional science methodology is so screwed up.
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
&quot;evolution occurs so rapidly we should expect to see MAJOR changes just within our life-span,&quot;

You can see it in a single generation, though I wouldn't call it the evolution of a new species. Take a white woman, marry a black guy. They have a mixed child. That mixed child marries another mixed person. The offspring of the mixed couple stand the equal chance of being fully black, or fully white.

Take 8 such people on an ark 4000 years ago. Include genetic information just as mixed, and results as quickly expected: a Whiter Man, a Darker Man, a Shorter 'Asian' Man. Three men, three sons of Noah the bible records as being the fathers of the Europeans/Russians, Middle Eastern and Asians, and Africans. Three primary groups. Just look at the diversity within them.

1) I am not just talking about the relatively mild diversity in humans, I am talking about the diversity of life. I don't think you understand just how much evolution had to take place in 4000 years in order to get to what is here today, starting with just a few hundred or thousand animals.

2) There are no three primary groups. There are three groups that you are most familiar with. What about American Indians? Chinese? The various ethnic groups from the Himalayan region? The Australian aborigines. In addition, most of these groups are sub-divided. Europeans come in Scandanavian, Anglo, Gallic, Celtic, and Latin, just to name a few, all with distinct features.

3) The features that define human ethnic groups cannot be accomplished just by mixing. Creoles can be born from a union of black and white, but the only combination that produces Australian aborigines is one between two Australian aboriginal people.

Look at the difference between horses and Rhinocerii. Unless you think both were on the ark, that's quite a bit of divergence in a few thousand years! Is the Panda descended from a couple of bears on the ark? What about the fox? Did it come from the dog on the ark? Domesticated cattle, Bison, Buffalo? Elephants, woolly mammoths? Or even Indian elephants and african elephants? How much of this kind of evolution can be observed in a lifetime?
 
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Originally posted by Josephus
&quot;Not possible.&quot;

Oh I disagree, unless you are unwilling to try. :)


&quot;Could you tell us why the rifts formed where they did?&quot;

Well, let's see. The Gulf of Mexico, the site of the world's largest meteor impact, and compatible for Flood Theory, is no where near a fracture point. In fact, it's almost dead center from the nearest fractures. I wonder... if we can make a hypthetical experiment. A water balloon. Believing the surface to be uniformly strong in all areas, no matter how hard you smack your hand down on this balloon, even in mid-air (with enough force to make it explode) the breaks of the balloon would be almost equatorily split from the center of impact to the opposite impact axis. But if the water balloon were non-uniform, meaning there were peaks of strength, and areas of weakness, then the areas of greatest weakness from a distance of equatorial strength would be the locations of a split.

For example, take a mountain on this figurative water ballon, resting right on the equidistant locale of impact and pole of that impact... the energy would be transferred to the lowest point of resistance from that mountain.. to say, the nearby valley. I don't know, but thoughtfully it seems sound. Anyone got a way to prove this?

The analogy of course is if the earth's crust was pressured to &quot;rest&quot; above a vast, mostly uniform underground layer of water, if that crust were ever to recieve the energy of the impact (say a large asteroid), the water layer would act as a shock absorber, but in the place of greatest pressure (the equitorial distance from the point of impact) would erupt outwards if unable to contain the energy. Of course, the asteroid would leave a very large crater.

The asteroid (or comet) that struck Siberia in the early 1900's didn't cause any rifts in the earth's crust. Not saying it couldn't happen, just that it didn't in the one time people were around to observe it. The BIG IFs of your theory seem to be that there was a substantial layer of water underground, and that there were one or more asteroid impacts that were energetic enough to crack a previously solid rock crust. Now if there were something to explain, i.e. evidence that a global flood had occurred, then those big if's would be a good question. Having a fact (the global flood) to explain, we would need to look at the geology of the earth to see if it was consistent with your explanation (a subterranean sea, a whole and intact crust, and asteroid impact(s) that ruptured the crust in several places allowing that water to escape). We would have to determine whether the earth's crust could have remained intact before the impact under the intense pressure of superheated water underneath (ever cook anything in a pressure cooker? After all, the earth's crust can still break just under the pressure of hot magma in some places - how did it contain all of the superheated steam prior to the asteroid impacts?

Unless we have something to explain, like evidence for a flood, it makes more sense to interpret all of these geological features in terms of well-understood gradualistic events known to create them.

But do we have anything to explain? Conventional uniformitarian geology explains every feature that you have mentioned at least as well as the hypotheses you have offered.

The big question is - is there evidence for the global flood? In other words, is there evidence that there was a recent extinction of all life on earth except for a boat-load of people and animals, and ((maybe)) a very hardy fish or two. Humans themselves have too much genetic variability to have descended from just one family circa 4000 years ago, and we have relatively little genetic variability. Chimpanzees could not have had a common ancestor for at least four or five million years. Same for Orangatans. Same for most species.

Is there geological evidence for the global flood? Oil and coal deposits won't do... All of the biological mass on the planet could barely account for one oil field in terms of oil production. If the flood accounts for coal and oil, why is there not one continuous deposit everywhere on earth that life existed 4000 years ago? Why just here and there: the Middle East, Venezuela, Alaska, Texas, Siberia (for oil)? Why just here and there: England, West Virginia, etc. (for coal)? How do you account for diamonds? They were formed form intense pressure on coal deposits, right? So, was there a second great flood after the first one to turn all of this coal into diamonds?

Where is the evidence of worldwide uniform deposits of sediments? Where is the one thick stratum with tools and remains of all of those people and animals who were living at that time?

Why do we find none of these features on a global scale, correlated in time with the impact crater(s) of one or more asteroids?

Are you beginning to see why scientists don't accept the global flood model?
 
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