Flea this!

coastie

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Originally posted by Brimshack
Off topic !?! I'll have you know that everything I have said was quite pertinent to the topic that you were talking about when you talked about the topic that you told us about. But I'm not so sure that Coasties ramblings and rantings were relevant to your own reverie, …not really.

Oh ok... you drag me into it... say that I'm rambling, Sneak up on Annabel, go on a rhetoric rampage, make broad sweeping generalizations about both Christians and innocent ants, then say "not really" :scratch:

I'm curious on your take on this... though trivial it may be... are ants agnostic or atheist? (and yes it's relevant)
 
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Brimshack

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What are you actually working right now? OK, I wouldn't apply the labels to ants because the labels refer not just to the logical implications of statements used to define these positions, but also to a kind of public stance with respect to those statements. I am also, alas, unversed in insect psychology, so for all I know, I would be wrong about this, and of course, if there really is a God, maybe he has implanted knowledge of himself in ther little ant-minds, but offhand I would say that ants are somewhat like agnostic atheists in the weak sense of each position. That is that I think the following statements would be true of ants:

1) They do not believe in God (because they are unaware of Him, or even the possibility thereof).
2) They are unaware of God, or even the possibility thereof, and hemce could be said not to know whether or not God exists.

…but I still say that some of them are Sufis.
 
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coastie

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you know, it must be nice to go about in their little simple ant world.

OK, I wouldn't apply the labels to ants because the labels refer not just to the logical implications of statements used to define these positions, but also to a kind of public stance with respect to those statements.

Public stance? Can't one be oblivious to social issues or public stances and have a belief in a certain religious ideal without the baggage?

Is their ignorance honestly a downfall, or is their obliviousness something to be admired?

I am also, alas, unversed in insect psychology, so for all I know, I would be wrong about this, and of course, if there really is a God, maybe he has implanted knowledge of himself in ther little ant-minds, but offhand I would say that ants are somewhat like agnostic atheists in the weak sense of each position.

Without obtaining a public stance? Or is it beyond consideration that the ant is impartial due to ignorance?

But you raised a very interesting point. You see, honestly, I don't think that there evil animals in the world. I believe that they act on instinct, and do so because of a grand design. Whether or not they are aware of this "grand design" on one level or another is up for debate, what's to say that knowledge of God isn't something that is "learned out" of them (or more interestingly us)?
 
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Brimshack

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On public stance: You are right, some one can keep it to herself, but then we don't normally apply a label to them. We say; "I don't know what she thinks…"

Ant-obliviousness is neither to be admired nor condemned; it is what it is.

As to the impartiality, yes, but ofc ourse that term implies the context of conscious judgement, which is a different question than the one we are currently asking.

"what's to say that knowledge of God isn't something that is "learned out" of them (or more interestingly us)?"

I think the burden would be on those who claim the knowledge is inherent.

I can't believe we are actually getting a debate out of this; Susan really is a trouble-maker isn't she.
 
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coastie

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On public stance: You are right, some one can keep it to herself, but then we don't normally apply a label to them. We say; "I don't know what she thinks…"

I understand what you are saying... but in the case of religion, a Buddhist living a solitary life in a monestary high in the himalays who may know only one or two people who died fifteen years ago and I have never met, is still a Buddhist, not because I label him that, but because he IS.

Ant-obliviousness is neither to be admired nor condemned; it is what it is.

That's a value assessment, isn't it?

As to the impartiality, yes, but ofc ourse that term implies the context of conscious judgement, which is a different question than the one we are currently asking.

Ok, so the question lies in some natural abstract knowledge of a "grand scheme".

As to the impartiality, yes, but ofc ourse that term implies the context of conscious judgement, which is a different question than the one we are currently asking.

BUt its a piece of the puzzle. I'm viewing this from an abstract point of view. It's a mystery since we can only infer as to an ants knowledge or lack there of. An ant can make a decision, can't it?

One question I have for you, that is more psycology related, is what seperates conciousness from awareness?

I can't believe we are actually getting a debate out of this; Susan really is a trouble-maker isn't she.

Brim, I can turn anything into a debate. I think you can too (although you do tend to be reluctant on hypothetical issues that no answer can really be found.
 
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Brimshack

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Evcen when a position is not voiced, there is still an implicit engagement in public issues when one makes up one's mind about a proposition, since the propositions are themselves artifacts of public discussion. So, unless the individual (whether a man or an ant) understands himself to be taking Buddhist views, then he is not one, even if his views are consistent with those of Buddhism.

On the difference between consciousness and awareness? I have no idea, but I suspect we are headed into deap semantic waters on that one. Off-hand I would use them pretty much interchangeably, though I may be missing something here.

What I meant by partiality referring to the context of conscious judgement was two things:

1) The ant would have to be conscious of the choice he was making on the issue, which I think we are both assuming he is not.

2) One can examine an issue impartially (or is that an impossibility) when he is asked to consider the topic itself, but that does not mean that his actions prior to the moment of judgement do not amount to a default stance on the topic. The question is whether or not there is a default value here, which I think there is.

Well you may be able to turn anything into an argument, but that doesn't apply to me at all. There are three reasons why that statement was false. One… oh, um, I thunk I better say 'goodnight' now.

Goodnight.

You two Susan.
 
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coastie

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On a simplified plane of existence (as applies to an ants possible ability to grasp existence which I would figure to be an inherent ability) they would not identify as "Christian" or "atheistic" however such inferences can be made by an objective and more intelligent being (like you).

On the difference between consciousness and awareness? I have no idea, but I suspect we are headed into deap semantic waters on that one. Off-hand I would use them pretty much interchangeably, though I may be missing something here.

Not interchangable in so far as I do not believe one can exist without the other. (let me change my mind... conciousness cannot exist without awareness)

While no one would argue the an ant is concious, you contend that they do not have the facilities to grasp God's existence on an intellectual level, but I guess that perhaps on a abstract level. I'm sure that insects wouldn't assign a name to God, and I doubt they contemplate the possiblity of God, but just simply (and I mean very simply) know.

If someone is unconcious, they are unaware of what is happening around them (except rare circumstances mentioned in my EMT class where people will remeber everything that happened after an accident down to an EMT's name at the scene though they were unconcious throughout the ordeal) which only strengthens my case that awareness may be possible without the additional senses of a concious being.

Awareness can be broken down into different levels given certain circumstances. FOr instance, I may be awae that I "am" but not that you "are" or that something else "is". (ref. autism)

Let me extend the topic in the direction I was originally intending it to go.

The burden of proof is not set on anyone (which would be of benefit to the defending party in this instance), since there is really no way to know without insight into a baby's mind.

A child's information retention at a very young age is minimal, thus leading me to the conclusion that without a nurturing of the knowledge of God, the knowledge would be quickly forgotten.

However, I believe that an argument for the belief that babies do ave an inherent knowledge of God is in there ability to grasp the beief in a God so easily at a young age.

The idea seems so abstract to us, but to a young child, it makes so much sense that God is the creator. That's before all of the questions are raised and conflicting views are introduced. When that occurs, it can lead a young child down one path of "knowing" or the other.
 
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coastie

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Originally posted by Brimshack
A public service? Don't tell anybody. Well, I have a half hour drive before I can get to bed, so I better be off to it. I hope I'm not going to be considered AWOL or anything. Goodnight and good luck staying awake.

Then by all means...

I couldn't bear having your misfortune on my conscience. :)
 
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