flat earth debate

ellelit · Feb 21, 2018

Ygrene Imref said:
It is amazing that we can be told we have more technology in our hands (phone) than the Apollo Missions, but we are all find accepting CGI images of our alleged celestial neighborhood, and we still only have rocket propulsion technology - which is not only highly inefficient, technologically backward and environmentally taxing, but also a ridiculous way to travel when quantum mechanics confirms at least half a dozen more energy efficient modes of solar travel. (By the way... Apollo was the god of the arts, truth, he was beautiful, and musically inclined - all attributes of the same powers, demons and fallen that were called "gods" in antiquity: including the Satan of which most know. Beautiful liar was the serpent.)

I want people to think, not agree with me.

What gets me is that NASA is on record saying that they destroyed that technology, and have no way to replicate it. Now why, if this is the most amazing technological advancement and occurrence in the history of the world, did they destroy (or lose, misplace, accidentally delete) all of the technical specs that allowed for the event? Would they not have made backup copies in order to preserve the astrophysical magic of spaceflight? The simple answer is NO, because it was manufactured. It's not real. Look at pictures and images of rocket launches. Why do they never break through the upper atmosphere? Why do they all have the same arch, same trajectory but cannot break through into space? Why are they nearly always launched over the ocean? Could it be so that no one questions where the dud rocket lands when it fails to reach space? Check out The Challenger Shuttle and disaster. Is it not interesting, that just when there was finally a chance to get into space, nearly 20 years after the last mission, it just happens to blow up? Oh no, too bad, not going to space this time around. Until you realize that 6 of the 7 people "on board" the shuttle are still alive. The shuttle was unmanned. Lies. Deception.

Steve Petersen · Feb 21, 2018

I think flat-earthers are just trolls looking to make Christians look stupider.

ellelit · Feb 21, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I think flat-earthers are just trolls looking to make Christians look stupider.

So how does that work when the flatty is Christian? Am I just trolling myself to make myself look stupid?

I'm Christian and believe in Christ and God our creator. But I'm also a human and think critically. Things about the round earth don't make sense. Things about the flat earth don't make sense. But I am more inclined to believe FE, not just because of scriptures, but because I have a brain.

Steve Petersen · Feb 21, 2018

ellelit said:
So how does that work when the flatty is Christian? Am I just trolling myself to make myself look stupid?

It makes Christians look stupid.

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7] - St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim

Ygrene Imref · Feb 21, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I think flat-earthers are just trolls looking to make Christians look stupider.

Are you just saying that because that is easier to do than to analyse the mathematics or physics behind the flat earth theory (and its daughter theories?)

Are you just saying that because you want people to similarly share the same incredulous feelings about flat earth?

Are you saying that because you are trying to distract, and derail the thread?

Are you saying that because you truly believe someone would troll to make Christians look stupider on a Christian forum?

Or, is there some other reason?

The mathematics support flat earth much more than it supports a ball earth. Physics supports a flat, firm surface of "earth" covered by a hemispherical dome made of idealized particles. It is an issue of topology; the earth is a manifold.

Most people I have seen purporting "flat earth" are not trying to implicate any religion: usually it is those who do not agree with flat earth theory that impose that they are some sort of religious nut.

Steve Petersen · Feb 21, 2018

Ygrene Imref said:
The mathematics support flat earth much more than it supports a ball earth. Physics supports a flat, firm surface of "earth" covered by a hemispherical dome made of idealized particles. It is an issue of topology; the earth is a manifold.

Most people I have seen purporting "flat earth" are not trying to implicate any religion: usually it is those who do not agree with flat earth theory that impose that they are some sort of religious nut.

Thanks for making my point for me.

Ygrene Imref · Feb 21, 2018

ellelit said:
What gets me is that NASA is on record saying that they destroyed that technology, and have no way to replicate it. Now why, if this is the most amazing technological advancement and occurrence in the history of the world, did they destroy (or lose, misplace, accidentally delete) all of the technical specs that allowed for the event? Would they not have made backup copies in order to preserve the astrophysical magic of spaceflight? The simple answer is NO, because it was manufactured. It's not real. Look at pictures and images of rocket launches. Why do they never break through the upper atmosphere? Why do they all have the same arch, same trajectory but cannot break through into space? Why are they nearly always launched over the ocean? Could it be so that no one questions where the dud rocket lands when it fails to reach space? Check out The Challenger Shuttle and disaster. Is it not interesting, that just when there was finally a chance to get into space, nearly 20 years after the last mission, it just happens to blow up? Oh no, too bad, not going to space this time around. Until you realize that 6 of the 7 people "on board" the shuttle are still alive. The shuttle was unmanned. Lies. Deception.

It is indeed all deception for the 5th dimension paradigm shift that has been pushed for a while. The deception includes the idea of planets and galaxies, not dimensions/rooms for which creation spreads. That is fine if there are planets and galaxies; I happen to think they are part of the first heaven. However, our domain is supposed to be here; unless we have been talking to entities we are not supposed to talk to, we should not be going into space with as low tech as we have.

The fact that this isn't immediately obvious to the vast majority of the population is 1) education, 2) indoctrination, and 3) livelihood. What keeps people who know this from telling is their livelihood - family, friends, career, etc. But, it hurts the population when reputable faces of academia tell the public blatant lies, and it is a good barometer for gauging how well people think for themselves.

If you can convince entire populations of a lie, come back a half generation later and provide another lie whilst dismissing the old lie as obsolete - and the population actually changes with this - then it is a testament to the fickle psycho-social atmosphere. When you can get the population to vigorously defend a deception/status quo, then it is even more amazing.

Ygrene Imref · Feb 21, 2018

Ygrene Imref said:
I came across similar arguments, and I appreciate them. The one thing that is disconnected between the flat earth/globe earth is the literal connection - the affine connection. The mapping of the manifold earth is non-affine, and therefore nonconformal. The angles aren't necessarily (and sometimes imperatively) not preserved. This accounts for the alleged discrepencies that lead us to believe the earth must be globe.

In fact, the flat manifold, and the globe model are both correct - because of the homeomorphy of a "flat" manifold that undergoes projections to span an n+1 spatial dimension. Here are some pics I made a while ago for a similar question on the forums:

View attachment 205916
This is a model of what most think of when they hear "flat earth." Clearly, there is a disk in the x-y plane that does not undergo any stereographic projection. We get a flat disk exposed at every point to the celestial plane - so we would see the same sky everywhere on the planet.

View attachment 205917

This is actually what is going on with the earth. The green "mesh" is our "flat earth" manifold, and it is spanned in three dimensions. The night sky actually contains a "warp" metric factor that accounts for the phase changes that allow the manifold to see different parts of the night sky. The manifold itself is nonconformal - the (affine) connections happen locally, as opposed to globally, projecting pieces of the night sky onto the space in the region. The phase angle (argument) is not constant, so the angles are not preserved over the mapping.

A 1-sphere (disk) is locally homeomorphic to a 2-sphere if it undergoes the projections to map from R2 to R3 maintaining its properties. The surface of the planet is a 2-manifold covered by another 2-manifold hemisphere; both that "flat" manifold, and a sphere are compact 2-manifold. The topology is the same.

Both sides of this argument are arguing two sides of the same exact coin.

Steve Petersen said:
Thanks for making my point for me.

Your point is demonstrably unique to you.

But in case anyone else actually cares... here are my own notes on this subject. I can go way deeper for anyone else interested.

JackRT · Feb 21, 2018

ellelit said:
I absolutely agree.

In Hebrew, NASA means deception. This is not an accident. Their logo has the forks of a serpent's tongue. Again, not an accident. I find it funny that we are so willing to just accept what NASA has told us is true. Do your own research. Investigate the hilariously obvious faked footage of the moon landings. Try to find an image of "round" earth that has not been photoshopped. Try to find an image of planets that are not CGI. Try to find evidence that the Pythagorean Theorem is anything but - a theorem! He wanted to prove that his equations would work on a BALL. A SPHERE. Not "Earth". Try to find proof that Newton's hypotheses have been proven. Try to find proof that Einstein's THEORY of relativity has been proven. Try to find evidence that the Coriolis Effect actually exists. Do your own thinking, your own research. When you understand that Pythagoras, Galileo, Copernicus, Newton were all Freemasons (and inherently against the belief in God and creationism) the pieces just fall together. You wonder why they orchestrated the largest mass deception of people in history? Look to your bible. Look to Revelations. The greatest deception of Satan is to make people believe that God does not exist. These people worship Satan. The whole construct of their belief system is to do anything and everything in their power to make you lose faith and to question or discredit your belief in God.

People say, "But what about scientists? What about teachers, physicists, mathematicians, etc? How can they be in on the lie?" Because what they are basing their "knowledge" on is preconceived and indoctrinated theories of the globe earth. Of course, they don't print the truth in Encyclopedias or teach it at Harvard. There is no basis to teach otherwise because this deception has been happening for hundreds of years. Thank God that people are finally waking up to the truth. It's like the five stages of grieving. Most people who believe in the round earth guffaw at the mere suggestion of the flat earth, and then move into complete denial and then name calling, anger, and violence because this knowledge has the potential to disrupt everything they think they know about their existence. If NASA tells us that we are nothing but space dust within an infinite universe, it means that our lives have no meaning. If you look above the firmament, the dome of the sky to the heavens, you have your answer. God is the creator, and is responsible for all things here, on our plane earth.

I know full well that you are serious and sincere but I still find it hard to believe that you have allowed yourself to be so misinformed. But, don't worry about it --- I am just one of those thoroughly indoctrinated scientists who has spent a near lifetime studying such matters.

SeventyOne · Feb 21, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I think flat-earthers are just trolls looking to make Christians look stupider.

I thought that was already to job of theistic evolutionists.

Trogdor the Burninator · Feb 21, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I think flat-earthers are just trolls looking to make Christians look stupider.

Either trolls or people who have never travelled very far and thus can fool themselves into believing in flat Earth.

The ultimate test is that while flat earters claim all sorts of vast conspiracies with members numbering in the millions, not to mention stuff like "flights from Australia are fake", they've never once shown any evidence at all of a flat earth.

And it should be so simple to prove - simply fly to the edge, and take a photo. Even better, livestream it on youtube like real actual space missions do.

JacksBratt · Feb 28, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I think flat-earthers are just trolls looking to make Christians look stupider.

Your wrong.

I am not a flat earther... I respect the view that they have and they have questions that need to be asked.

The bible describes the earth as a "snow globe" un moving, not spinning and not a ball.

It always amazes me how people will take the bible as solid soul saving truth when it talks of a man walking on water, turning water into wine, healing the blind, deaf, crippled and leprous, raising a man from the dead, putting a severed ear back on, and rising from the dead, Himself and then appearing through locked doors and ascending to heaven.... IF IT SAVE THEIR ETERNAL SOUL.

However, contradict the mere words of men, atheistic to boot, when they say that the world is old, or we came from one common ancestor, or that the earth is a ball......with scripture..

And they will write this scripture, from the same source as the gospel, as myth, allegory, metaphorical or parable.

The words of men are just that... words...

The word of God... Is truth.

Dave-W · Feb 28, 2018

ellelit said:
So how does that work when the flatty is Christian? Am I just trolling myself to make myself look stupid?

May not be your intent but that is the result.

Trogdor the Burninator · Feb 28, 2018

Ooops - yet another flight announced that the flat earthers will have to claim is fake.

A world-first air route is planned to link South America and Asia, with Perth the critical hub linking the two big travel markets.

The fastest route is via the South Pole but a stop in Perth would be needed for fuel, creating exciting stopover tourism potential.

Argentine airline Norwegian Air Argentina has applied and been given approval for the Buenos Aires to Perth route, and is applying for rights to Singapore, while Airbus and Boeing have done studies on how the route would be accomplished.

China Southern, Singapore Airlines, and Qantas also have rights to fly the route.

SeventyOne · Feb 28, 2018

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Ooops - yet another flight announced that the flat earthers will have to claim is fake.

There's a plan? Well, that proves it.

Trogdor the Burninator · Feb 28, 2018

SeventyOne said:
There's a plan? Well, that proves it.

Well, they claim that the Sydney - Santiago flight is fake and that's been running for years.

Shemjaza · Feb 28, 2018

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Well, they claim that the Sydney - Santiago flight is fake and that's been running for years.

A friend of mine flew it last year.

SeventyOne · Mar 1, 2018

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Well, they claim that the Sydney - Santiago flight is fake and that's been running for years.

This might interest you.

patrick jane · Mar 1, 2018

Camila Smith said:
I have heard a couple people creating posts about the flat earth theory, can anyone give some opinions on this theory please
i want a different perspective on what people belive

thank you
camila smith <3

Don't know if you're decided yet but I have two good threads on flat earth just started this last Sunday. I've researched it for a month now and I'm pretty much convinced we're in an enclosed flat earth and cosmos. One of my threads is Biblical for all scriptures pertaining to earth and the heavens, Christian videos images and content.

I interpret the scriptures as God plainly and clearly tells us. The other thread is a Conspiracy thread and the main topic now is, you guessed it, flat earth. The conspiracy thread is for the science, math, and physical evidence for flat and globe. Everybody keeps using the Bible thread for science, so we'll see. You can learn a lot by reading my posts in both, if you want. Have a good one.

patrick jane · Mar 1, 2018

Shemjaza said:
A friend of mine flew it last year.

Maybe not in a straight line.

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