flat earth debate

Ygrene Imref said:

This is why the whole argument about a flat/spherical earth is ludicrous to a mathematician.

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But not to an astronomer or a physicist.

JackRT said:

But not to an astronomer or a physicist.

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Or a pilot.

JackRT said:

But not to an astronomer or a physicist.

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Most mechanics is highly classical - meaning a lot is ignored. It works, but it is not the unique solution. Uniqueness is important to mathematicians, because it reduces the redundancy of problems physicists, chemists and biologist often find (most often due to the imposed constraints of the field with respect to the analysis applied.) It gives you the authority to make more conclusions from the mathematical objects and space with which you are given. I cannot, for example, take the dot product of a vector upon itself unless there exists a dual space for the vector such that an element of the vector space can undergo a linear transformation and produce the same image when input into the dual space. The dual space needs to contain all possible functionality of the original space. (This is important to understand, fundamentally, when you take into consideration the OP, and differential geometry, and why the earth is a manifold first.)

This is not the case in physics - except in quantum mechanics or higher (which, is essentially computational physics.) Classical physics is, for example, concerned with real solutions - except in certain exceptions. There is no such thing as an imaginary velocity in most physics fields (which certainly excludes entire systems of solutions; ) instead, physicists use [inertial] frames of reference to explain the math that doesn't work with their definitions/postulates. However, there is no doubt an entire velocity field can be imaginary in mathematics.

Physicists have not caught up with mathematics yet. Things like quantum topological field theory make very close connections, and clear up problems with relativity and quantum mechanics, but QTFT still utilizes more mathematics than it does physics, and ultimately renormalizes mathematically appropriate solutions in order to have them make physical sense.


As for the differential geometry of the earth, and how the same physical phenomena can be observed on a manifold ("flat"), it comes down to transformations. You do not need to be a sphere in order to observe the world as we know it. In fact, the earth is not "flat" like a disk; it is flat because it is a 2-manifold with affine and non-affine projections - covered by a 2-sphere.

As the Apollo astronauts stood on the Moon and watched the spherical earth rotating in front of them in real time, I wonder if they discussed non-affine projections - covered by a 2-sphere.

JackRT said:

As the Apollo astronauts stood on the Moon and watched the spherical earth rotating in front of them in real time, I wonder if they discussed non-affine projections - covered by a 2-sphere.

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You are introducing an entirely separate issue. Besides, I am just telling you what the math says; what you think you see is a matter of your interpretation (coffee cup/donut).

I have never seen the earth in a non-CGI/non-edited photo, nor have I been to the moon - or another heavenly body to see the planet size and shape for myself. I have never astral projected, and I have never been caught in a whirlwind, and stewarded by angels to see the "circle" of the Earth for myself. So, I cannot say for sure what the shape of the earth is from that perspective. So, the NASA scientist testimony has about as much weight to me as anecdotal evidence has in a court of law. NASA scientists have clearance - usually Top Secret clearance. It would be naive to believe what they tel us is anything other than a distraction (or, rather, what we are not being told is enough for me to dismiss what they have told us - especially if I can vindicate my own mathematical analysis.)



The actual land is not a sphere: it is a manifold. What most people think of as spherical is the hemisphere topology of the atmosphere.

Ygrene Imref said:

I have never seen the earth in a non-CGI/non-edited photo, nor have I been to the moon - or another heavenly body to see the planet size and shape for myself. I have never astral projected, and I have never been caught in a whirlwind, and stewarded by angels to see the "circle" of the Earth for myself. So, I cannot say for sure what the shape of the earth is from that perspective. So, the NASA scientist testimony has about as much weight to me as anecdotal evidence has in a court of law.

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That's like saying "I haven't been to Australia or seen it in a non-CGI/edited photo, therefore postulations of its existence are anecdotal"

Trogdor the Burninator said:

That's like saying "I haven't been to Australia or seen it in a non-CGI/edited photo, therefore postulations of its existence are anecdotal"

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No it isn't, because your example assumes Australia is so intangible that it is outside conventional reach. I can fly to Australia; I can live stream with a friend of mine who can traverse Australia for me, even.

The moon is a particularly difficult place to reach without clearance, and an incredible means of travel is needed that is not available to the general public. Therefore, it is a matter of faith to trust the words of those very few persons who have seen the Earth from beyond low orbit, or have been to the moon.

If I told you:

your difference in incredulity is that you trust the NASA name, not me - which is perfectly fine. But, that is an exercise in faith, not necessarily truth. For me, I would need an untouched, raw photo, and then eventually to see it for myself.

And even the, I believe none of what I hear, and half of what I see - especially from humans.

Ygrene Imref said:

No it isn't, because your example assumes Australia is so intangible that it is outside conventional reach. I can fly to Australia; I can live stream with a friend of mine who can traverse Australia for me, even.

The moon is a particularly difficult place to reach without clearance, and an incredible means of travel is needed that is not available to the general public. Therefore, it is a matter of faith to trust the words of those very few persons who have seen the Earth from beyond low orbit, or have been to the moon.

If I told you:

I have been to the Pleiades, and it shaped like a dodecahedral with spokes on every odd face. My proof of this is a picture I took using my low-orbit antigravity machine to reach the planet, and an enhanced lens camera to take the pictures. But, before I took give the pictures to you, you should know I edited a few things using photoshop.

Now, believe me...
​

your difference in incredulity is that you trust the NASA name, not me - which is perfectly fine. But, that is an exercise in faith, not necessarily truth. For me, I would need an untouched, raw photo, and then eventually to see it for myself.

And even the, I believe none of what I hear, and half of what I see - especially from humans.

​

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That seems a very american-centric view. Several nations have been into orbit, and the ISS is active right now - none of them are managed by NASA. In fact you can watch a live-stream from the ISS any time you like. Then there are all the scientists and engineers who make use of the data, or whose calculations rely upon a globe, so to speak. Plus with micro satellites becoming cheaper and more common it is becoming with in reach of ordinary people to send an object into orbit.

Flat Earth theories inevitably rely upon a vast conspiracy, because there's simply too many people and too many technologies that only work with Earth being a globe. The fact that most of us haven't been to the moon is irrelevant.

Trogdor the Burninator said:

That seems a very american-centric view. Several nations have been into orbit, and the ISS is active right now - none of them are managed by NASA. In fact you can watch a live-stream from the ISS any time you like. Then there are all the scientists and engineers who make use of the data, or whose calculations rely upon a globe, so to speak. Plus with micro satellites becoming cheaper and more common it is becoming with in reach of ordinary people to send an object into orbit.

Flat Earth theories inevitably rely upon a vast conspiracy, because there's simply too many people and too many technologies that only work with Earth being a globe. The fact that most of us haven't been to the moon is irrelevant.

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I am not an American, and if you think topology is conspiracy, then I suppose we can just agree to disagree.

JackRT said:

As the Apollo astronauts stood on the Moon and watched the spherical earth rotating in front of them in real time, I wonder if they discussed non-affine projections - covered by a 2-sphere.

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What a lovely story.

Trogdor the Burninator said:

That seems a very american-centric view. Several nations have been into orbit, and the ISS is active right now - none of them are managed by NASA. In fact you can watch a live-stream from the ISS any time you like. Then there are all the scientists and engineers who make use of the data, or whose calculations rely upon a globe, so to speak. Plus with micro satellites becoming cheaper and more common it is becoming with in reach of ordinary people to send an object into orbit.

Flat Earth theories inevitably rely upon a vast conspiracy, because there's simply too many people and too many technologies that only work with Earth being a globe. The fact that most of us haven't been to the moon is irrelevant.

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Faith in normality requires denial of reality on a massive scale, and hinges on trust in the same government that demonized conspiracy theory after it's botched cover up in the Warren Report.

JackRT said:

They cannot even explain the movements of the sun, moon and planets without invoking magical thinking. Newton's laws of gravity and motion, which are all independently verified, explain all this with great accuracy.

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As far as you know, that is.

Shemjaza said:

Earlier in this very thread you endorsed tone as an excuse to avoid answering a straight forward and simple question about the motion of the Sun.

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You're version of events is never in question.

Trogdor the Burninator said:

There have flat earthers all around the globe, don't you know

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That used to be funny... don't you know?

Ygrene Imref said:

No it isn't, because your example assumes Australia is so intangible that it is outside conventional reach. I can fly to Australia; I can live stream with a friend of mine who can traverse Australia for me, even.

The moon is a particularly difficult place to reach without clearance, and an incredible means of travel is needed that is not available to the general public. Therefore, it is a matter of faith to trust the words of those very few persons who have seen the Earth from beyond low orbit, or have been to the moon.

If I told you:

I have been to the Pleiades, and it shaped like a dodecahedral with spokes on every odd face. My proof of this is a picture I took using my low-orbit antigravity machine to reach the planet, and an enhanced lens camera to take the pictures. But, before I took give the pictures to you, you should know I edited a few things using photoshop.

Now, believe me...
​

your difference in incredulity is that you trust the NASA name, not me - which is perfectly fine. But, that is an exercise in faith, not necessarily truth. For me, I would need an untouched, raw photo, and then eventually to see it for myself.

And even the, I believe none of what I hear, and half of what I see - especially from humans.

​

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I absolutely agree.

In Hebrew, NASA means deception. This is not an accident. Their logo has the forks of a serpent's tongue. Again, not an accident. I find it funny that we are so willing to just accept what NASA has told us is true. Do your own research. Investigate the hilariously obvious faked footage of the moon landings. Try to find an image of "round" earth that has not been photoshopped. Try to find an image of planets that are not CGI. Try to find evidence that the Pythagorean Theorem is anything but - a theorem! He wanted to prove that his equations would work on a BALL. A SPHERE. Not "Earth". Try to find proof that Newton's hypotheses have been proven. Try to find proof that Einstein's THEORY of relativity has been proven. Try to find evidence that the Coriolis Effect actually exists. Do your own thinking, your own research. When you understand that Pythagoras, Galileo, Copernicus, Newton were all Freemasons (and inherently against the belief in God and creationism) the pieces just fall together. You wonder why they orchestrated the largest mass deception of people in history? Look to your bible. Look to Revelations. The greatest deception of Satan is to make people believe that God does not exist. These people worship Satan. The whole construct of their belief system is to do anything and everything in their power to make you lose faith and to question or discredit your belief in God.

People say, "But what about scientists? What about teachers, physicists, mathematicians, etc? How can they be in on the lie?" Because what they are basing their "knowledge" on is preconceived and indoctrinated theories of the globe earth. Of course, they don't print the truth in Encyclopedias or teach it at Harvard. There is no basis to teach otherwise because this deception has been happening for hundreds of years. Thank God that people are finally waking up to the truth. It's like the five stages of grieving. Most people who believe in the round earth guffaw at the mere suggestion of the flat earth, and then move into complete denial and then name calling, anger, and violence because this knowledge has the potential to disrupt everything they think they know about their existence. If NASA tells us that we are nothing but space dust within an infinite universe, it means that our lives have no meaning. If you look above the firmament, the dome of the sky to the heavens, you have your answer. God is the creator, and is responsible for all things here, on our plane earth.

ellelit said:

I absolutely agree.

In Hebrew, NASA means deception. This is not an accident. Their logo has the forks of a serpent's tongue. Again, not an accident. I find it funny that we are so willing to just accept what NASA has told us is true. Do your own research. Investigate the hilariously obvious faked footage of the moon landings. Try to find an image of "round" earth that has not been photoshopped. Try to find an image of planets that are not CGI. Try to find evidence that the Pythagorean Theorem is anything but - a theorem! He wanted to prove that his equations would work on a BALL. A SPHERE. Not "Earth". Try to find proof that Newton's hypotheses have been proven. Try to find proof that Einstein's THEORY of relativity has been proven. Try to find evidence that the Coriolis Effect actually exists. Do your own thinking, your own research. When you understand that Pythagoras, Galileo, Copernicus, Newton were all Freemasons (and inherently against the belief in God and creationism) the pieces just fall together. You wonder why they orchestrated the largest mass deception of people in history? Look to your bible. Look to Revelations. The greatest deception of Satan is to make people believe that God does not exist. These people worship Satan. The whole construct of their belief system is to do anything and everything in their power to make you lose faith and to question or discredit your belief in God.

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I hope you keep in mind this message is hardly well received. I hear you loud and clear, but I would encourage you to be careful who you speak to, and don't cast your pearls before swine. I am in the fortunate position of being able to vindicate the physics and mathematics for myself, and I also had the luxury, in hindsight, of escaping indoctrination that comes with striving toward being an academic darling. I became disillusioned with education very early on.

I had to treat math and physics like it was magic - because it is - and then it became "easy" (read: tolerable.) No joke; I was able to just accept what clearly made no sense, and even gain honors in University. It was like learning the rules of a game, and just learning how to play the game as opposed to taking the rules of the game as REALITY.

People say, "But what about scientists? What about teachers, physicists, mathematicians, etc? How can they be in on the lie?" Because what they are basing their "knowledge" on is preconceived and indoctrinated theories of the globe earth. Of course, they don't print the truth in Encyclopedias or teach it at Harvard. There is no basis to teach otherwise because this deception has been happening for hundreds of years. Thank God that people are finally waking up to the truth. It's like the five stages of grieving. Most people who believe in the round earth guffaw at the mere suggestion of the flat earth, and then move into complete denial and then name calling, anger, and violence because this knowledge has the potential to disrupt everything they think they know about their existence. If NASA tells us that we are nothing but space dust within an infinite universe, it means that our lives have no meaning. If you look above the firmament, the dome of the sky to the heavens, you have your answer. God is the creator, and is responsible for all things here, on our plane earth.

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This is extremely important to realize. Compartmentalization keeps many voluminous industries working while operating under serious ethical and moral degeneracy.

And, most times very big secrets are not kept secret by the deceptive party. Often, it is enough for doubt and incredulity (all programmed by lower education) to keep the secret. I have done this myself when I was not a Christian: kept a secret by doing nothing, and just laughing it off when it is brought up - usually calling the person(s) crazy or "sick" for even believing it!

Keep in mind the one under a spell believes s/he has no affliction.

JackRT said:

As the Apollo astronauts stood on the Moon and watched the spherical earth rotating in front of them in real time, I wonder if they discussed non-affine projections - covered by a 2-sphere.

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I saw that movie, too. Thought it was real for the longest time.

Rick Otto said:

I saw that movie, too. Thought it was real for the longest time.

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It is amazing that we can be told we have more technology in our hands (phone) than the Apollo Missions, but we are all find accepting CGI images of our alleged celestial neighborhood, and we still only have rocket propulsion technology - which is not only highly inefficient, technologically backward and environmentally taxing, but also a ridiculous way to travel when quantum mechanics confirms at least half a dozen more energy efficient modes of solar travel. (By the way... Apollo was the god of the arts, truth, he was beautiful, and musically inclined - all attributes of the same powers, demons and fallen that were called "gods" in antiquity: including the Satan of which most know. Beautiful liar was the serpent.)

I want people to think, not agree with me.

Quantum Mechanics...
Don't take it for granted.