Flag burning-free speech or not?

Standing_Ultraviolet · Dec 24, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
Yeah thats pretty true.. doesn't that crazy pastor in florida keep getting in trouble for burning the koran[ or trying to burn it] every year?

I'm not sure if he's gotten in trouble more than once, but the one time that I'm aware of was in 2013. It was because he was "unlawfully conveying" a pretty startling amount of fuel and was illegally openly carrying a firearm. The first part wasn't just a technicality, because the law he was arrested under doesn't even apply to containers of less than eight gallons. His nearly 3000 kerosene-soaked Qurans would have been obscenely dangerous in an accident.

RDKirk · Dec 24, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
I am not a violent man, but go ahead. express your grief in burning the flag, and I will express my grief of you burning it by punching you square in the face. There is a proper way to brun the flag. I suggest you turn it into the boy scouts for disposal. They tend to know it and do it for free. it means a lot more to me, because I've sen it draped over my friends as they are buried.

As an aside, in the Marine Corps (at least traditionally) they do not burn even a worn flag. First they disassemble it. They cut the stitching that binds the stripes, union, and stars to the component parts so that the pieces they burn are not actually the "flag."

But leave it to Marines to go to the extreme. Somebody's gotta do it.

RDKirk · Dec 24, 2014

stamperben said:
I just want to add that for me the incorporation of the U.S. flag into clothing is much more offensive than it being burned.

I would tend to agree with that logically, especially inasmuch as it's rarely done with an intention of making a statement.

RDKirk · Dec 24, 2014

SteveNZ said:
Folk knowing that to deliberately burn a USA flag to make a point should know it comes with 1 year (possibly more) in prison and/or $50,000 fine. Each judge shall decide the extent on a case by case basis.

Where did you pick that up?

A. The Supreme Court has expressly ruled that burning a the flag is a protected 1st Amendment expression of speech.

B. The US Flag Code is very specifically devoid of any punitive or enforcement measures.

Bedford · Dec 24, 2014

SteveNZ said:
The flag is not an item like a leaf or firewood. It is a symbol with an important meaning.

CRIMINAL? - I think it should be a crime.
Folk knowing that to deliberately burn a USA flag to make a point should know it comes with 1 year (possibly more) in prison and/or $50,000 fine. Each judge shall decide the extent on a case by case basis.

Is it illegal to burn the American flag where you live?

TLK Valentine · Dec 24, 2014

Superhero Sam said:
This isnt really a controversial political issue that much these days compared to other topics-but its a legal issue people have different opinions on, so discussing it fits into the topic of politics.

In many countries, like in parts of Europe, its highly illegal-and free speech doesnt protect it.

The US Supreme Court has ruled flag burning is legal based on free speech-in a court case years ago. And I agree with them, despite the fact that I find flag burning highly offensive and disrespectful. But the fact that it personally offends me and I disapprove of it morally, doesnt mean it shouldnt be legal. I do believe it falls under free speech rights.

Anybody disagree?

Hear, hear. People forget that inoffensive speech doesn't need a First Amendment to protect it.

It's the stuff people want the government to squelch for them that needs the First Amendment.

TLK Valentine · Dec 24, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
I am not a violent man, but go ahead. express your grief in burning the flag, and I will express my grief of you burning it by punching you square in the face.

And I will express my grief of you punching me by having you arrested for assault.

There is a proper way to brun the flag. I suggest you turn it into the boy scouts for disposal. They tend to know it and do it for free. it means a lot more to me, because I've sen it draped over my friends as they are buried.

And what exactly does it mean to you? Did your friends die for a flag, or did they die for the freedoms -- ALL the freedoms -- that flag symbolizes?

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · Dec 24, 2014

pgp_protector said:
You do realize that Burning the Flag is the Preferred way to dispose of a flag that is no longer serviceable.
USFlag.org: A website dedicated to the Flag of the United States of America - United States Code

Throwing them in the trash is so much easier. Anyways I don't worship a flag enough to take special measures fore it.

stamperben · Dec 24, 2014

TLK Valentine said:
And I will express my grief of you punching me by having you arrested for assault.

And what exactly does it mean to you? Did your friends die for a flag, or did they die for the freedoms -- ALL the freedoms -- that flag symbolizes?

This!

Red Fox · Dec 24, 2014

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN said:
Throwing them in the trash is so much easier. Anyways I don't worship a flag enough to take special measures fore it.

QFT

mafwons · Dec 24, 2014

Superhero Sam said:
This isnt really a controversial political issue that much these days compared to other topics-but its a legal issue people have different opinions on, so discussing it fits into the topic of politics.

In many countries, like in parts of Europe, its highly illegal-and free speech doesnt protect it.

The US Supreme Court has ruled flag burning is legal based on free speech-in a court case years ago. And I agree with them, despite the fact that I find flag burning highly offensive and disrespectful. But the fact that it personally offends me and I disapprove of it morally, doesnt mean it shouldnt be legal. I do believe it falls under free speech rights.

Anybody disagree?

I can burn a whole stack of flags without saying a word. It is not wrong to burn a flag it is a piece of dyed material with no inherent meaning. I find that most people that burn the flag are being offensive, but I applaud their efforts to express yheir opinions by using their rights. As a Christian I will not pledge allegiance to the or worship it or a song by standing or saluting, as I would not be a Christian but a flag worshiper then.

mafwons · Dec 24, 2014

SteveNZ said:
The flag is not an item like a leaf or firewood. It is a symbol with an important meaning.

CRIMINAL? - I think it should be a crime.
Folk knowing that to deliberately burn a USA flag to make a point should know it comes with 1 year (possibly more) in prison and/or $50,000 fine. Each judge shall decide the extent on a case by case basis.

Burning the flag is an honorable thing to do and folks who think otherwise have the right to that because of the brave men and women who have torched flags throughout history. I hope you can find your way past needing to control people by suggesting obscene laws.

mafwons · Dec 24, 2014

Gigagei Tsula said:
I have no problem burning an American flag, if I had one. I don't even own one, never have, never will, although I did participate in a protest once and carried one upside down. I was on the opposite side of a pro-American rally. All of the patriotic idol worship over America makes me sick to my stomach.

“An upside down flag is an international signal of distress… now we, the Indian nations, are in distress. I will wear this flag upside down as long as my people are in distress!” - Russell Means, Lakota (1939 – 2012) - Russell Means, A Portrait

You speak wisely.

mafwons · Dec 24, 2014

SepiaAndDust said:
An important meaning?

I think that a flag means something different to each person.

Nevertheless, destroying symbols that have important meanings is protected by the freedoms guaranteed in our Constitution.

You are on the verge of being dubbed a freedom loving patriot.

mafwons · Dec 24, 2014

RDKirk said:
As an aside, in the Marine Corps (at least traditionally) they do not burn even a worn flag. First they disassemble it. They cut the stitching that binds the stripes, union, and stars to the component parts so that the pieces they burn are not actually the "flag."

But leave it to Marines to go to the extreme. Somebody's gotta do it.

They are Marines, what do you expect, what else are they gonna do stare at a wall.

keith99 · Dec 24, 2014

stamperben said:
I burn my leaves. What if I use the flag to get the wet leaves going?

Fine. Just be aware if the leaves are wet enough you might run afoul of anti-pollution laws that you escape when the leaves are dry and burn cleaner.

mafwons · Dec 24, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
I am not a violent man, but go ahead. express your grief in burning the flag, and I will express my grief of you burning it by punching you square in the face. There is a proper way to brun the flag. I suggest you turn it into the boy scouts for disposal. They tend to know it and do it for free. it means a lot more to me, because I've sen it draped over my friends as they are buried.

You are a violent man if you would do that over a worthless piece of material. My condolences on your friends as some of mine suffered the same fate, war is a racket and the flag that it stands for. Not one freedom has been defended in war or by the flag, but burning it soaked in gas and motor oil can defend our freedom everyday.

stamperben · Dec 24, 2014

keith99 said:
Fine. Just be aware if the leaves are wet enough you might run afoul of anti-pollution laws that you escape when the leaves are dry and burn cleaner.

Naw, this is Texas man! Very little to no regulations regarding pollution.

stellalunaCW · Dec 24, 2014

Superhero Sam said:
This isnt really a controversial political issue that much these days compared to other topics-but its a legal issue people have different opinions on, so discussing it fits into the topic of politics.

In many countries, like in parts of Europe, its highly illegal-and free speech doesnt protect it.

The US Supreme Court has ruled flag burning is legal based on free speech-in a court case years ago. And I agree with them, despite the fact that I find flag burning highly offensive and disrespectful. But the fact that it personally offends me and I disapprove of it morally, doesnt mean it shouldnt be legal. I do believe it falls under free speech rights.

Anybody disagree?

I do not disagree.

I also don't think we should be so attached to a symbol that we get bent out of shape when we perceive it has been disrespected.

stellalunaCW · Dec 24, 2014

abysmul said:
As long as you don't take and destroy a flag that does not belong to you... /shrug

Yes, we shouldn't steal.

Flag burning-free speech or not?

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I've already read the books you want burned.

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