Greetings Talmid,
Its been observed by many many people beyond myself that this is false.
Really? You're the only one I've seen that has opposed this. In fact, even in this thread alone everyone seems to understand that MJism is by majority gentiles.
Yet, I believe that in more Jewish forums such as Efnet Israel you'll find that most of the Messianic chat rooms are filled with Jews.
Efnet Israel is a chat for ISRAELIS! (or those who wish to chat with Israelis). It is not a
MESSIANIC JEWISH forum, and beyond that, it's a chat, not a discussion forum. Every MJ forum that I've ever seen on the internet has it's minority as gentiles.
I listed some of the more major ones, how about a slew of others?
Salt Shakers, Forums B, CompuServe's Messianic House, MBI's forums, Crowns of Glory, Kol HaShofar... not to mention some of the most popular MJ fourms already stated such as YashaNet, Eliyahs Forums, or Yeshua the King.
I could go on and on... literally I could list every single online forum that is MJ and write it off as probably 80% gentile or more.
I've been involved in most of those under the handle: simchat_torah
Go check them out, you'll probably see my posts all over.
Most every congregation I've been has been 50% or more Jewish. Beth HaShofar, Beth David, Kehilat Ariel, Narkis St, Ruach Israel, Kehilat Yerushalayim, of the ones that I've been involved with in the last few years.
Beth HaShofar is unique in that it was a settlement of Jewish families from Israel who congregated in a single town in Washington. Other than these original families that settled in Washington, primarily the rest of the growth of the congregation since then has been gentile.
Beth David, another Seattle congregation has a similar story, except these Jews came from Germany. However, it honestly has remained as a congregation comprised of mostly Jewish attendees.
Kehilat Ariel is gentile by majority.
I believe Narkis St is in Israel if I'm not mistaken. As I admitted in my post, most MJ congregations in Israel
are have the majority of their congregation of Jewish ancestry.
Ruach Israel is one of the few truly MJ congregations that did not come from a Jewish translocation (ie: Beth HaShofar, and Beth David)... but was founded entirely where it is located and the majority of it's congregants are Jewish.
Finally...Kehilat Yerushalayim is in fact located in Israel, again something which I admitted would be primarily Jewish in its congregants.
Now, my point is this... you listed two congregations form Israel (which obviously will contain primarily Jews... which I admitted in my previous post) two congregations that were translocations of Jewish populations, and ironically the congregants that have been added over the years are not of Jewish ancestory, and one true MJ congregation that does in fact contain a majority of Jews.
Those are not typical of the MJ movement as a whole. MJism is a rather new religious spurt. 95% of the congregations that exist today have been established within the past 12 years (see Messianic Today!). The majority of the congregants as of late, are primarily made up of gentile congregants. You have been lucky and unique in that the congregations you went to were not the 'norm' of MJ'ism. They have been around for some time. However, nearly every MJ congregation in the past 12 years is entirely gentile.
I'm sure you are familiar with what I'm about to say next, but there are 3 major 'affiliations' or... 'denomiations' for a lack of a better word.... in MJism. The MJAA, UMJC and IMACS. Nearly every single MJ congregation in the world belongs to one of these three... and more specifically, the MJAA and UMJC contain probably 90% of all MJ congregations (that's just pure speculation).
Now, MJAA is nearly entirely gentile in nature, their congregations are almost entirely gentile, and few of their leaders are actually Jewish by descent.
The UMJC is a mixed bag. There are some congregations that are by majority Jewish, and others that aren't. IMACS is the same.
However, in comparison... all things considered (and P4I noted this as well, not just myself) the MJ movement as a whole is overwhelmingly gentile.
I actually think it has it's benefits. It means that more gentiles are waking up to the true faith in Yeshua. AS well, it means that more gentiles are respecting Israel and the Jews for what HaShem called them to be.
It also means that the Torah is going forth to the nations.
That is key.
Call it a secular Jewish upbringing instead if you will rather than an Orthodox one.
Interestingly, you had said on these forums that you didn't even know about your Jewish heritage until you were 20. That doesn't sound typical of a 'secular Jewish' upbringing. But none the less, you are Jewish by ancestry, that I do not deny. However, what I am stating is that you were drawn to MJism through the eyes of a gentile world. That's my point.
I think I recall you stating before that you were born and raised a gentile though and later converted to Orthodox Judaism, correct?
Actually, that is slightly incorrect. I have a similar story as yours. There's nothing to be ashamed of, we could not control our heritage.
I was raised in a secular home. I was raised by christian and secular parents... it's a long story. However, I have Jewish ancestry on both sides of my family... mother and father.
I had later in life chosen to convert. Why? you may ask.
I was told by our Beit Din that it was unnecessary since my wife and I were both Jewish by decent, however, we wanted to make a declaration of faith in the public eye, as well as reaffirm our covenant with the Torah. We chose to do this as many christians would chose to take a baptism.
Maybe some of our reasons were more formal in nature?
However, make it clear that I am in fact Jewish by ancestory and so is my wife for that matter.
I just can't believe that you can go around spouting your opinions as observations to be fact.
I'm not the only one spouting this 'opinion.'
Many others have observed this too. It has been addressed at many of the large MJ conferences. when I went to Messiah 2000 (or 99, I forget now... lol...) there was a specific seminar devoted to discussing why MJ'ism is so attractive to gentiles. I have seen many articles on the internet as well. It's not an observation I have soley made.
It's also currently a hot topic of discussion in MJAA leadership meetings.
It also seems that P4I has made this observation as well.
You can believe whatever you wish, doing so will never cause it to become fact.
In the same right, you can deny it all you wish, and doing so will not cause it to become fact. This is pointless banter.
This issue was even seen in the book of Acts. Look at Acts 15. What happened? A dramatic influx of gentile believers came rushing in. They were unsure of how to handle this and called a council to discuss the matter.
The same thing, in essence, is happening today.
What makes me curious is why you are so hostile? As well, you have provided no data. Most seem to agree with my position, simply because it is obvious to the eyes. I have been involved in the MJ movement for some time and I've seen every end of the spectrum. I have many close friends who are leaders of MJ congregations. I have discussed the issues with many of these leaders. (I cringe on labeling them all rabbis as many are selfproclaimed pastors, etc).
But I have specifically addressed each point you made with as much detail as possible. If you accuse me of merely 'spouting opinion', you have done so more over.
What proof do you have to offer?
If so, why is it such a hot topic right now? Why do MJ conferences feel the need to adress 'why are there more gentiles in MJ'ism'?
Funny thing...
This all started off of an innocent and somewhat joking comment I made concerning the MJ movement in general. I wasn't intending this to bedcome a full blown discussion.
shalom Talmid,
Yafet.
