First talk with Lutheran pastor - good & problematic

[JM]

Two sacraments - Baptism and Eucharist are much easier to grasp than the 7 of the RCC. And seeing that in the Didache really makes sense.

I find the RCC has a lot of truth in it. In some places it's been twisted to fit a narrative, but more often they have just added so much stuff you can't tell what's true and what's filler, without a lot of research.

I get why many groups have chucked everything, and tried to build from Scripture alone, rather than trying to sort thru Rome's massive amount of stuff.

So you guys are presenting good answers. I live in a small town and we have three Lutheran churches:

LCMS - aged congregation, few youth, can't seem to get a regular pastor so the retired guys are filling in - fairly conservative it seems. But I met one of the guys that helps with the service, and he dropped an "F" bomb in our conversation - not impressive.

NALC - but they went against the synod and hired a very conservative pastor. I like him, he's the one I met with. Congregation here is really aged and shrinking.

WELLS - don't know anyone that goes there.

It seems the Baptists and Non-Denominational are the only ones with any youth and able to get younger pastors. It's hard to take your kids to a church with no other kids. Any thoughts?

Pastor Braswell answers your question here.

 

[LizaMarie]

Wow, can't believe a pastor dropped the F bomb. Not good.
That said, I was raised and confirmed in the LCMS. We also have 3 Lutheran churchesin our town, 2 ELCA and one WELS.
I attended ELCA in the early '90's but they got too liberal for me....
We have attended our current WELS church in our small town for almost 30 years.
I don't know if you have small children or a family but I will say I've been very impressed with their
Christian education, including the day(elementary) school, Sunday school, VBS and confirmation.
I taught Sunday school and VBS for a number of years so I got very familiar with the curriculum and also our
kids went to the Lutheran pre-8 school(public high school.)
I can't compare it to other churches but they got a solid Christian education.
Sadly our member ship is declining in our small town.
However, my son and his wife attend a WELS mission church in another state which has lots of young families and kids.

 

[JM]

I think Pastors should drop a cuss word when railing against sin. I have no problem with socially unacceptable words are used as long as they are used on purpose and to emphasize a point.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I think Pastors should drop a cuss word when railing against sin. I have no problem with socially unacceptable words are used as long as they are used on purpose and to emphasize a point.

No. We are to condemn sin and speak forcefully against it and we may employ bold language. Paul certainly does. However, we are not to cuss, because those words have crude and coarse connotations that are out of place and hurts the conscience of people.

Ephesians 5:4 teaches us that there should be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking among us, but instead thanksgiving. This verse can certainly be applied to cussing, even if it's supposed to come out of a righteous or holy anger over sin. So if a Pastor is cussing, that's a red flag. That's a sin. That's not acceptable and he should repent and be forgiven.

 

[Markie Boy]

Wow, can't believe a pastor dropped the F bomb. Not good.
That said, I was raised and confirmed in the LCMS. We also have 3 Lutheran churchesin our town, 2 ELCA and one WELS.
I attended ELCA in the early '90's but they got too liberal for me....
We have attended our current WELS church in our small town for almost 30 years.
I don't know if you have small children or a family but I will say I've been very impressed with their
Christian education, including the day(elementary) school, Sunday school, VBS and confirmation.
I taught Sunday school and VBS for a number of years so I got very familiar with the curriculum and also our
kids went to the Lutheran pre-8 school(public high school.)
I can't compare it to other churches but they got a solid Christian education.
Sadly our member ship is declining in our small town.
However, my son and his wife attend a WELS mission church in another state which has lots of young families and kids.

To be fair, he wasn't a pastor - possibly a deacon - someone I saw that looked like he was helping with the service.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Two sacraments - Baptism and Eucharist are much easier to grasp than the 7 of the RCC. And seeing that in the Didache really makes sense.

I find the RCC has a lot of truth in it. In some places it's been twisted to fit a narrative, but more often they have just added so much stuff you can't tell what's true and what's filler, without a lot of research.

I get why many groups have chucked everything, and tried to build from Scripture alone, rather than trying to sort thru Rome's massive amount of stuff.

So you guys are presenting good answers. I live in a small town and we have three Lutheran churches:

LCMS - aged congregation, few youth, can't seem to get a regular pastor so the retired guys are filling in - fairly conservative it seems. But I met one of the guys that helps with the service, and he dropped an "F" bomb in our conversation - not impressive.

NALC - but they went against the synod and hired a very conservative pastor. I like him, he's the one I met with. Congregation here is really aged and shrinking.

WELLS - don't know anyone that goes there.

It seems the Baptists and Non-Denominational are the only ones with any youth and able to get younger pastors. It's hard to take your kids to a church with no other kids. Any thoughts?

I can sympathise with your situation. Most traditional churches in Japan have ageing and shrinking congregations, including the one I assist at, and I would also like our kids to have some friends at church. However, I think it's good for kids to get used to the liturgy and we certainly shouldn't compromise on God's Word by going to churches that are more fun than biblical.

When we're considering joining a new church, our minds should really be on their doctrine and practice above all other things. From a purely doctrinal standpoint, I would favour the LCMS, then WELS, then NALC. LCMS and WELS are confessional, but NALC is a bit liberal in doctrine in that they embrace female ordination.

How long has the LCMS church been without a regular Pastor?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I can sympathise with your situation. Most traditional churches in Japan have ageing and shrinking congregations, including the one I assist at, and I would also like our kids to have some friends at church. However, I think it's good for kids to get used to the liturgy and we certainly shouldn't compromise on God's Word by going to churches that are more fun than biblical.

When we're considering joining a new church, our minds should really be on their doctrine and practice above all other things. From a purely doctrinal standpoint, I would favour the LCMS, then WELS, then NALC. LCMS and WELS are confessional, but NALC is a bit liberal in doctrine in that they embrace female ordination.

How long has the LCMS church been without a regular Pastor?

ALC would be another good choice; independent, but in fellowship with LCMS.

 

[Markie Boy]

The think the LCMS has been without a pastor for several years.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The think the LCMS has been without a pastor for several years.

My Parish recently became vacant; we have a great vacancy Pastor though.

 

[kdm1984]

I'm in WELS. I'm one of the younger ones (38) there; I have a 1 1/2 year old son, who is considered part of "Gen Alpha." There are a couple of other families with younger Gen Alpha children there as well. There's also a family with some Gen Z children, college age.

I like WELS. Less online drama than LCMS, less politics than most theologically conservative denominations, and no female ordination. Bachmann left us years ago; goodness knows we couldn't ever produce the likes of even Boebert and Greene, either, thankfully.

 

[JM]

No. We are to condemn sin and speak forcefully against it and we may employ bold language. Paul certainly does. However, we are not to cuss, because those words have crude and coarse connotations that are out of place and hurts the conscience of people.

Ephesians 5:4 teaches us that there should be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking among us, but instead thanksgiving. This verse can certainly be applied to cussing, even if it's supposed to come out of a righteous or holy anger over sin. So if a Pastor is cussing, that's a red flag. That's a sin. That's not acceptable and he should repent and be forgiven.

Disagree completely. Cuss words are culturally defined offensive speech not based in Law or Gospel, not defined by scripture. I guess Luther wouldn't be allowed to preach today with his lewd jokes and sense of humor, calling people farts and pig poop. This goes to point, we view farts and pig poop as childish but not overly offensive today but Luther lambasted his opponents and the Jews in particular with slurs.

"Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?" (On the Jews and Their Lies)

"He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw pig poop at him when he sees him and chase him away." (On the Jews and Their Lies)

[Edited by @Daniel9v9 — Content that goes against the forum rules has been removed]

I go back to my original point that cussing has a place.

Yours,

jm

 

[Daniel9v9]

Disagree completely. Cuss words are culturally defined offensive speech not based in Law or Gospel, not defined by scripture. I guess Luther wouldn't be allowed to preach today with his lewd jokes and sense of humor, calling people farts and pig poop. This goes to point, we view farts and pig poop as childish but not overly offensive today but Luther lambasted his opponents and the Jews in particular with slurs.

"Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?" (On the Jews and Their Lies)

"He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw pig poop at him when he sees him and chase him away." (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Luther again, “Devil, I have just s_ _ _ in my trousers. Have you smelled it?”

Jesus used cuss words, "sons of snakes" is like saying "sons of b_ _ _ _."

View attachment 332067

Jeff Durbin (Reformed Baptist) explains.

I go back to my original point that cussing has a place.

Yours,

jm

Let me point out two things:

Words that may be cussing in English may not be cussing in other languages. This is to say, to my knowledge, Luther did not cuss (and if he did, he was in error), but he certainly did use bold and colourful language. When we read Luther, we have to understand him in his own context. For a simple contemporary demonstration, I can mention that the cuss-word in English that rhymes with "ship" is also used in Norwegian to mean "dirt". It sounds the same and can be used the same, but it's not cussing in Norwegian. So if we were to translate that word into English, it wouldn't be a cuss word, but something like "rubbish". Or in Japanese, there are no cuss words, properly speaking, but some usages may be interpreted as such in English. So we always need to bear in mind what is actually meant. We should not be too quick to assume that people are swearing in their own native tongue, even if it may sound offensive to our ears.

Secondly, it's good to be mindful of who cusses and what connotations cuss words have. In English, the most obvious cuss word is very vulgar in meaning, which is sinful speech. And if we consider what kind of people who identify as Christians use it, it's overwhelmingly nominal Christians and liberal Christians. So both in meaning and use, it's completely out of character for the orthodox Christian.

So, speaking as a Bishop, this is my Pastoral advice to you: Cuss words that are sexual in nature, such as the "f" word, or blasphemy, such as saying "Jesus!" or "Oh my God!" in a non-worship context, is sinful; it's breaking the sixth and the second commandments. They have no place in church or on the lips, minds, or hearts of any Christian. And if you disagree with this, I would encourage you to contrast the evil fruit of the world, the devil, and our sinful flesh, versus that of the Holy Spirit, in Galatians 5. This is a very interesting text because here Paul does use bold language in condemning sin, but it should not be confused with what we can understand in English as cussing, that is, deliberately offensive words with sexual or blasphemous connotations.

 

[Daniel9v9]

The think the LCMS has been without a pastor for several years.

Well, if it's been several years, hopefully they're able to get someone soon. You have my prayers and I'd be interested to learn how things go and where you're able to settle.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I still disagree and will say people like me don't attend churches that are sissified and filled with lilly white German folks for a reason. There is a reason why so many Lutherans have sold out and gone woke and liberal, being winsome isn't the way to deal with our current culture.

I have taken this thread far afield and will not continue.

Cussing, as in coarse, sexually immoral speech and blasphemy ≠ Masculinity and godliness. Remember the Catechism:

2 — You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God.

What does this mean?

We should fear and love God so that we do not curse, swear, use satanic arts, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks.

Note in the Catechism with Explanation: "To swear thoughtlessly or meaninglessly (in vain) or as a curse word; Exodus 20:7: You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."


6 — You shall not commit adultery.

What does this mean?

We should fear and love God so that we lead a sexually pure and decent life in what we say and do, and husband and wife love and honour each other.

This was penned by Luther, by the way.

 

[kdm1984]

What?! Leftist LGBTQ atheists love to cuss. They do it nonstop on Reddit. They are the absolute opposite of winsome and polite, because it's not in their depraved nature to be kind. It's absolutely astonishing that any self proclaimed conservative Christian today would want to imitate their behavior, and twist it and make it sound as if returning evil for evil is a 'conservative Christian' thing. Vulgarity has been celebrated by leftist media for decades. In the 1950s when people were more conservative and polite, they washed out the mouths of children if indecent speech came from their mouths. That's when fathers had honor and authority and self control.

 

[kdm1984]

Amazing that nothing has been done yet. I'm glad there are still strong Christian men like Daniel here to defend Biblical truth, honor, and decency, but I've been contemplating whether or not places like CF are really worth continuing to post to.

In the rules themselves:

Terms and rules

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.

www.christianforums.com

"Vulgarity and Profanity

Please do not post, or link to, violent, disturbing, graphic, or sexually explicit images or text. Profanity or foul language is not allowed."

Violated here in this thread; nothing done.

"Flaming and Goading

Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue."

Insulting Lutherans and German culture doesn't follow this rule. Further, insinuating that theologically conservative denominations like WELS are "woke" and "liberal" because they don't cuss, breaks the eighth commandment: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. We ARE conservative, not woke and liberal, and I won't tolerate slander and libel suggesting otherwise.

I do believe I'm done here on CF. There are good men like Daniel to hopefully restore order here, but until there are more on the CF staff, I'll stick with my local church and congregation. I know I won't see filth and fake conservative Christian men posting there, and order will be maintained by the male leaders.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thank you very much @kdm1984 for your kind words and vigilance, and my apologies for not responding properly to this! I've gone ahead and edited the posts above and if anything should flare up, so to speak, I can reach out to the advisors.

I'd like us all to be able to move on without any disappointment or bitterness, and while I disagree with the theology of JM1517 when it comes to how we are to express ourselves, it's my hope that we're able to bear with one another and continue to be sanctified by the Word of God. It would be sad to me if you decided to leave the forums — I hope you're not too discouraged.

Having said this, let's not derail this thread any more (that goes for me as well!). If anyone has any concerns, questions, or comments, please feel free to drop me a message.

Sorry, @Markie Boy, for the interruption.

 

[Markie Boy]

No problem. I think we are to look and sound different than the world. So I almost never cuss, and try to be a decent example. Honestly I like Lutheran thought a lot, but Luther himself - not so sure about. He was pretty rough, and said many things I wouldn't agree with or repeat.

He lived in a time when he was breaking away from something that had really gone wrong, and they wanted to end him for it - so I'm going to not pass any judgement. Tough times for sure.

I'm not sure one can actually be a true Christian and want to put an end to those different than yourself.

 

[Daniel9v9]

No problem. I think we are to look and sound different than the world. So I almost never cuss, and try to be a decent example. Honestly I like Lutheran thought a lot, but Luther himself - not so sure about. He was pretty rough, and said many things I wouldn't agree with or repeat.

He lived in a time when he was breaking away from something that had really gone wrong, and they wanted to end him for it - so I'm going to not pass any judgement. Tough times for sure.

I'm not sure one can actually be a true Christian and want to put an end to those different than yourself.

Yeah, it's a good thing the Lutheran Church is not Luther's church! We'd be in trouble if it was! But he's not our pope. The word "Lutheran" was actually polemical/derogatory in its origin. Throughout church history, it's common to refer to sects or heresies by the name of their author or front figure — for example, Arianism after Arius. Our Roman Catholic friends called the Evangelical churches "Lutheran" and the Evangelical churches, in turn, called the Roman churches "Papist". The word "Lutheran" stuck and was eventually embraced as a means of distinguishing a particular theological system from that of other reformers. In our day, though, the word "Lutheran" has somewhat lost its meaning due to the split between the liberal wing and the orthodox wing. But this is true of most church bodies in our time.

Anyway, I don't blame you for finding Luther hard to read. I think part of it is the difficulty of translating him in a natural way, and the other part is that he's very colourful in his writing. And though he's commonly thought of as crass or wild, he is also very gentle and graceful, so he's up and down, and perhaps in some ways follows in the steps of Paul, who really is the better example for us. He deals strongly with sin, but he is ready to comfort the contrite. But as you rightly point out, in all things, we are to be holy, for God is holy.

God's blessings to you and thanks for bearing with me!

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

No. We are to condemn sin and speak forcefully against it and we may employ bold language. Paul certainly does. However, we are not to cuss, because those words have crude and coarse connotations that are out of place and hurts the conscience of people.

Ephesians 5:4 teaches us that there should be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking among us, but instead thanksgiving. This verse can certainly be applied to cussing, even if it's supposed to come out of a righteous or holy anger over sin. So if a Pastor is cussing, that's a red flag. That's a sin. That's not acceptable and he should repent and be forgiven.

a similar thing happened to me when I was asking for advice via text messaging from my pastor while away at college many years ago; I noticed his response was angry and used curses to condemn me so I never went back to that church. it seems that among guys they think they can get away with it. even if I was wrong, you shouldn't be using that language.