First it was the Confederate statues, and now...

[Yarddog]

Because it's a federal holiday, that's why.

Being a Federal holiday has nothing to do with a communities right to celebrate it in the manner they choose or choose not to. Several states do not recognize the holiday or celebrate in other ways. Hawaii celebrates their Polynesian heritage on that day and So. Dakota celebrates Native American day instead.

Each community can do as they choose and unless one lives there, it isn't their business.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Had Columbus not discovered the Americas, another country like China would have done so. North and South America would probably be speaking Mandarin today if not for Columbus' discovery.

So...no, that's probably not what would have happened. There's precisely zero evidence to suggest that even at its height the Ming Dynasty would have ever made any attempt to sail the Pacific Ocean--there's literally no reason for them to have done so. The only reason Columbus even thought to try to sail West across the Atlantic was because he wrongly believed the earth was much smaller than it was. The European powers had a reason to at least contemplate such an idea, as stupid as Columbus' plan was, and that was to circumvent the Ottomans in order to trade for those delicious, delicious spices they had in the East.

Had Columbus' plan failed, no the Ming wouldn't have discovered the Americas; it would be entirely impossible to say for sure who would, though my bet is still someone in Europe; after all the first Europeans to set foot in the Americas were the Vikings and if we are gong to play a game of speculative history I'd say that someone likely would have remembered some of those old Norse stories and a skip and a jump from Iceland to Greenland to Canada would have been likely.

Further, there's a troubling assumption that someone had to conquer the Americas. As long as we are playing a game of speculative history, how about we imagine a timeline in which Europeans don't savagely murder the native inhabitants of these continents and instead the languages being spoken include Choctaw, Cherokee, Lakota, and Klallam. Or do we not want to allow, even in our fiction, the opportunity for the indigenous Americans to thrive and determine their own national destinies?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Christopher Columbus never set foot in the United States of America. It's entirely ignorant to lump him with George Washington & Thomas Jefferson who actually built up this country.

South Dakota, which went for Trump, started calling Columbus Day Native American Day back in the 90s.

Now, tell us who the Americas are named for. Hint, he wasn't Chinese.

Christopher Columbus never stepped foot on the entire North American continent. And he certainly didn't discover America. Someone honestly needs to learn that history if they believe otherwise.

Maybe this article below will clear up some misconceptions they have about him.

Christopher Columbus: 3 things you think he did that he didn’t

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's not just about the Confederacy; it's part and parcel of an attack of any manifestation of Western Civilization. This is why Yankees ought to support the preservation of Confederate monuments. Their history is a stake too. The President seems to get this...

By the way, my offer--to anyone really--to have a statue built to honor Benedict Arnold is still on the table. I brought it up a couple weeks ago in other thread, but so far there've been no takers. Personally I think we should honor such an important part of American history, and indeed such an important figure in Western Civilization as a whole.

I'm also thinking maybe we could build a couple other monuments, Caligula, Attila, perhaps a massive shrine dedicated to Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HawgWyld]

Being a Federal holiday has nothing to do with a communities right to celebrate it in the manner they choose or choose not to. Several states do not recognize the holiday or celebrate in other ways. Hawaii celebrates their Polynesian heritage on that day and So. Dakota celebrates Native American day instead.

Each community can do as they choose and unless one lives there, it isn't their business.

Hmm. That's almost a state's rights argument.

Thought that dispute was settled when Lee surrendered his troops...

 

[HawgWyld]

If we're going to have an indigenous people's day, I'll set up a P.O. Box and anyone suffering from white guilt can send me cash for Indigenous Indulgences.

Can my Cherokee Nation wife join you in that effort? She's got her eye on a couple of Kimber pistols she wants...

 

[HawgWyld]

By the way, my offer--to anyone really--to have a statue built to honor Benedict Arnold is still on the table...

There is already a monument to Benedict Arnold. Clearly, it must be torn down (or, given the boot, so to speak...)

 

[MoonlessNight]

By the way, my offer--to anyone really--to have a statue built to honor Benedict Arnold is still on the table. I brought it up a couple weeks ago in other thread, but so far there've been no takers. Personally I think we should honor such an important part of American history, and indeed such an important figure in Western Civilization as a whole.

I'm also thinking maybe we could build a couple other monuments, Caligula, Attila, perhaps a massive shrine dedicated to Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas?

-CryptoLutheran

I'd be willing to have a monument to Marcus Aurelius, even though he persecuted the Church.

Heck, I'd even be willing to have a monument to Martin Luther, even though he arguably did more damage to the Church than anyone before or since him.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is already a monument to Benedict Arnold. Clearly, it must be torn down (or, given the boot, so to speak...)

Do you know why it's only Arnold's foot?

Damnatio memoriae - Wikipedia

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SolomonVII]

Christopher Columbus is the new target.

Columbus statue beheaded: Christopher Columbus Statue Beheaded in NY

Los Angeles bans Columbus Day and replaces it with Indigenous Peoples' Day: In Los Angeles, Columbus Day is toppled like a Confederate statue

Trump was definitely on to something when he said Jefferson and Washington statues would be targeted next. Thoughts?

It reminds me of Taliban blowing up Buddha statues, or ISIS destroying all traces of ancient culture in the ME.

Morally self-righteous people have been burning books and destroing cultural artifacts, and in effect erasing history since long before the destruction of the Library of Alexandria.

Culture is global today, and this virus of self-righteous moral bigotry is not limited to Afghanistan or Syria or Iraq.
<Staff Edit>

 

[Go Braves]

I really respect RE Lee. He was personally against slavery, yet fought for the Confederacy out of loyalty to his home state of Virginia. He actively supported reconciliation and Johnson's Reconstruction. He opposed glorying the past to help the US heal.
If any figure should unite the two sides, this would be it. A humane, anti-slavery, pro Reconciliation, Southern War Hero, who requested the restoration of his citizenship (granted posthumously). Lee would be the first to say his monuments should be removed if it was for the good of the country.

Good post. I think the monuments ought to be taken down, moved to a museum. In their place there should be a plaque teaching about him, including what you just said.

 

[HawgWyld]

Do you know why it's only Arnold's foot?

Damnatio memoriae - Wikipedia

-CryptoLutheran

Doesn't matter. It was a traitorous foot. A foot that is an insult to patriotic feet everywhere.

I am almost as outraged over that monument as I am about the proposed one of Stonewall Jackson's glove in Virginia. I won't stand for this type of thing!

 

[Rion]

Further, there's a troubling assumption that someone had to conquer the Americas. As long as we are playing a game of speculative history, how about we imagine a timeline in which Europeans don't savagely murder the native inhabitants of these continents and instead the languages being spoken include Choctaw, Cherokee, Lakota, and Klallam. Or do we not want to allow, even in our fiction, the opportunity for the indigenous Americans to thrive and determine their own national destinies?

Uh, not everyone was friendly. There was a lot of war going on between the tribes, and they were not the freakin' Na'avi of planet Earth. If you really want to know what tribes could get up to, check out Fate Worse Than Death by Gregory & Susan Michno.

As someone of mixed heritage, I hate people demonizing part of my ancestry and infantalizing the other.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Uh, not everyone was friendly. There was a lot of war going on between the tribes, and they were not the freakin' Na'avi of planet Earth. If you really want to know what tribes could get up to, check out Fate Worse Than Death by Gregory & Susan Michno.

As someone of mixed heritage, I hate people demonizing part of my ancestry and infantalizing the other.

We can always imagine a scenario where without European interference the Aztec empire grows to encompass all of North and South America.

Now everyone gets to contribute to human sacrifices!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Uh, not everyone was friendly. There was a lot of war going on between the tribes, and they were not the freakin' Na'avi of planet Earth. If you really want to know what tribes could get up to, check out Fate Worse Than Death by Gregory & Susan Michno.

As someone of mixed heritage, I hate people demonizing part of my ancestry and infantalizing the other.

Hi, I never suggested "everyone was friendly", neither did I say there wasn't war going on, nor did I insinuate they were blue aliens.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Armoured]

Columbus Day is coming in three days. I’ll make sure to celebrate, especially since it makes the libs mad. He was a true hero!

For a certain definition of "hero", sure. Personally, I don't see much heroic in trying to get to India the wrong way and running into the great big land mass in the way, but that's just me.

 

[Armoured]

You think I’m hate-filled for creating this thread? Sounds like you’re projecting your own angry neurosis onto me. I didn’t say anything hateful in the least bit. Quit accusing me of emotions that you’re feeling.

I don't think I accused you of anything, did I? I'm not sure what you think are my "angry neuroses" either.

 

[ambc]

I don't think I accused you of anything, did I?

Then why did you say this thread, which I created, is “hate-filled”?

 

[Armoured]

Then why did you say this thread, which I created, is “hate-filled”?

You're not the only participant in the thread. Why do you assume I was referring to you?

 

[ambc]

You're not the only participant in the thread.

My bad.