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BobRyan

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When was the first evil act/thought and when was it committed. I'm guessing it was before the fall of man... was it also before the creation of the heavens and the earth? Or somewhere in between?

How? When? By whom?

Thank you.


It was in heaven - Lucifer - one of the highest of unfallen sinless angels.

===================

you might find this commentary - high level summary helpful for the origin of evil - from a Christian POV.


 
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childeye 2

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When was the first evil act/thought and when was it committed. I'm guessing it was before the fall of man... was it also before the creation of the heavens and the earth? Or somewhere in between?

How? When? By whom?

Thank you.
As a Christian, I believe that evil is like darkness, as in the absence of Light, and that it exists in degrees of diminishing brightness. Moreover, As the source of the energy that created all things, I believe that The Pure Light is God within the soul. So, I think evil began gradually when the creature first began to think in some degree of vanity and Un thankfulness, that they were a light unto themselves apart from God.
 
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PuerAzaelis

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Objection 1: It would seem that good cannot be the cause of evil. For it is said (Mt. 7:18): "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit."

Objection 2: Further, one contrary cannot be the cause of another. But evil is the contrary to good. Therefore good cannot be the cause of evil.

Objection 3: Further, a deficient effect can proceed only from a deficient cause. But evil is a deficient effect. Therefore its cause, if it has one, is deficient. But everything deficient is an evil. Therefore the cause of evil can only be evil.

Objection 4: Further, Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) that evil has no cause. Therefore good is not the cause of evil.

On the contrary, Augustine says (Contra Julian. i, 9): "There is no possible source of evil except good."

I answer that, It must be said that every evil in some way has a cause. For evil is the absence of the good, which is natural and due to a thing. But that anything fail from its natural and due disposition can come only from some cause drawing it out of its proper disposition. For a heavy thing is not moved upwards except by some impelling force; nor does an agent fail in its action except from some impediment. But only good can be a cause; because nothing can be a cause except inasmuch as it is a being, and every being, as such, is good.

And if we consider the special kinds of causes, we see that the agent, the form, and the end, import some kind of perfection which belongs to the notion of good. Even matter, as a potentiality to good, has the nature of good. Now that good is the cause of evil by way of the material cause was shown above (Question [48], Article [3]). For it was shown that good is the subject of evil. But evil has no formal cause, rather is it a privation of form; likewise, neither has it a final cause, but rather is it a privation of order to the proper end; since not only the end has the nature of good, but also the useful, which is ordered to the end. Evil, however, has a cause by way of an agent, not directly, but accidentally.

In proof of this, we must know that evil is caused in the action otherwise than in the effect. In the action evil is caused by reason of the defect of some principle of action, either of the principal or the instrumental agent; thus the defect in the movement of an animal may happen by reason of the weakness of the motive power, as in the case of children, or by reason only of the ineptitude of the instrument, as in the lame. On the other hand, evil is caused in a thing, but not in the proper effect of the agent, sometimes by the power of the agent, sometimes by reason of a defect, either of the agent or of the matter. It is caused by reason of the power or perfection of the agent when there necessarily follows on the form intended by the agent the privation of another form; as, for instance, when on the form of fire there follows the privation of the form of air or of water. Therefore, as the more perfect the fire is in strength, so much the more perfectly does it impress its own form, so also the more perfectly does it corrupt the contrary. Hence that evil and corruption befall air and water comes from the perfection of the fire: but this is accidental; because fire does not aim at the privation of the form of water, but at the bringing in of its own form, though by doing this it also accidentally causes the other. But if there is a defect in the proper effect of the fire---as, for instance, that it fails to heat---this comes either by defect of the action, which implies the defect of some principle, as was said above, or by the indisposition of the matter, which does not receive the action of the fire, the agent. But this very fact that it is a deficient being is accidental to good to which of itself it belongs to act. Hence it is true that evil in no way has any but an accidental cause; and thus is good the cause of evil.

Reply to Objection 1: As Augustine says (Contra Julian. i): "The Lord calls an evil will the evil tree, and a good will a good tree." Now, a good will does not produce a morally bad act, since it is from the good will itself that a moral act is judged to be good. Nevertheless the movement itself of an evil will is caused by the rational creature, which is good; and thus good is the cause of evil.

Reply to Objection 2: Good does not cause that evil which is contrary to itself, but some other evil: thus the goodness of the fire causes evil to the water, and man, good as to his nature, causes an act morally evil. And, as explained above (Question [19], Article [9]), this is by accident. Moreover, it does happen sometimes that one contrary causes another by accident: for instance, the exterior surrounding cold heats (the body) through the concentration of the inward heat.

Reply to Objection 3: Evil has a deficient cause in voluntary things otherwise than in natural things. For the natural agent produces the same kind of effect as it is itself, unless it is impeded by some exterior thing; and this amounts to some defect belonging to it. Hence evil never follows in the effect, unless some other evil pre-exists in the agent or in the matter, as was said above. But in voluntary things the defect of the action comes from the will actually deficient, inasmuch as it does not actually subject itself to its proper rule. This defect, however, is not a fault, but fault follows upon it from the fact that the will acts with this defect.

Reply to Objection 4: Evil has no direct cause, but only an accidental cause, as was said above.

ST.I.Q49.A1.
 
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Ligurian

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When was the first evil act/thought and when was it committed. I'm guessing it was before the fall of man... was it also before the creation of the heavens and the earth? Or somewhere in between?

How? When? By whom?

Thank you.

The first evil is the last evil. Created creatures wanting to be God.
 
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timothyu

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Created creatures wanting to be God.
Hence the current end of days scenario where rich corporate entities think it is they who should be controlling all governments and mankind. So far so good.
 
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Ligurian

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Hence the current end of days scenario where rich corporate entities think it is they who should be controlling all governments and mankind. So far so good.

Maybe... if corporate entities are wearing sheep-skins.
 
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Chriliman

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When was the first evil act/thought and when was it committed. I'm guessing it was before the fall of man... was it also before the creation of the heavens and the earth? Or somewhere in between?

How? When? By whom?

Thank you.

Assuming God always knew evil would happen, evil would have to eternally exist somehow, maybe as a possibility.
 
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timothyu

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Maybe... if corporate entities are wearing sheep-skins.
Many may not even realize their wolf nature, seeing themselves as being benevolent even if they are anti-Christ in nature. They are completely of the world with no inkling of God. The Adversary mimics what God has done and that will include coming across as some sort of messiah, but of the world rather than the Kingdom. We see it in action now on a global basis with a so called think tank of the world's 'greatest' in their own minds calling the shots. (WEF)

BTW when I said controlling governments I didn't mean as politicians.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Objection 1: It would seem that good cannot be the cause of evil. For it is said (Mt. 7:18): "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit."

Objection 2: Further, one contrary cannot be the cause of another. But evil is the contrary to good. Therefore good cannot be the cause of evil.

Objection 3: Further, a deficient effect can proceed only from a deficient cause. But evil is a deficient effect. Therefore its cause, if it has one, is deficient. But everything deficient is an evil. Therefore the cause of evil can only be evil.

Objection 4: Further, Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) that evil has no cause. Therefore good is not the cause of evil.

On the contrary, Augustine says (Contra Julian. i, 9): "There is no possible source of evil except good."

I answer that, It must be said that every evil in some way has a cause. For evil is the absence of the good, which is natural and due to a thing. But that anything fail from its natural and due disposition can come only from some cause drawing it out of its proper disposition. For a heavy thing is not moved upwards except by some impelling force; nor does an agent fail in its action except from some impediment. But only good can be a cause; because nothing can be a cause except inasmuch as it is a being, and every being, as such, is good.

And if we consider the special kinds of causes, we see that the agent, the form, and the end, import some kind of perfection which belongs to the notion of good. Even matter, as a potentiality to good, has the nature of good. Now that good is the cause of evil by way of the material cause was shown above (Question [48], Article [3]). For it was shown that good is the subject of evil. But evil has no formal cause, rather is it a privation of form; likewise, neither has it a final cause, but rather is it a privation of order to the proper end; since not only the end has the nature of good, but also the useful, which is ordered to the end. Evil, however, has a cause by way of an agent, not directly, but accidentally.

In proof of this, we must know that evil is caused in the action otherwise than in the effect. In the action evil is caused by reason of the defect of some principle of action, either of the principal or the instrumental agent; thus the defect in the movement of an animal may happen by reason of the weakness of the motive power, as in the case of children, or by reason only of the ineptitude of the instrument, as in the lame. On the other hand, evil is caused in a thing, but not in the proper effect of the agent, sometimes by the power of the agent, sometimes by reason of a defect, either of the agent or of the matter. It is caused by reason of the power or perfection of the agent when there necessarily follows on the form intended by the agent the privation of another form; as, for instance, when on the form of fire there follows the privation of the form of air or of water. Therefore, as the more perfect the fire is in strength, so much the more perfectly does it impress its own form, so also the more perfectly does it corrupt the contrary. Hence that evil and corruption befall air and water comes from the perfection of the fire: but this is accidental; because fire does not aim at the privation of the form of water, but at the bringing in of its own form, though by doing this it also accidentally causes the other. But if there is a defect in the proper effect of the fire---as, for instance, that it fails to heat---this comes either by defect of the action, which implies the defect of some principle, as was said above, or by the indisposition of the matter, which does not receive the action of the fire, the agent. But this very fact that it is a deficient being is accidental to good to which of itself it belongs to act. Hence it is true that evil in no way has any but an accidental cause; and thus is good the cause of evil.

Reply to Objection 1: As Augustine says (Contra Julian. i): "The Lord calls an evil will the evil tree, and a good will a good tree." Now, a good will does not produce a morally bad act, since it is from the good will itself that a moral act is judged to be good. Nevertheless the movement itself of an evil will is caused by the rational creature, which is good; and thus good is the cause of evil.

Reply to Objection 2: Good does not cause that evil which is contrary to itself, but some other evil: thus the goodness of the fire causes evil to the water, and man, good as to his nature, causes an act morally evil. And, as explained above (Question [19], Article [9]), this is by accident. Moreover, it does happen sometimes that one contrary causes another by accident: for instance, the exterior surrounding cold heats (the body) through the concentration of the inward heat.

Reply to Objection 3: Evil has a deficient cause in voluntary things otherwise than in natural things. For the natural agent produces the same kind of effect as it is itself, unless it is impeded by some exterior thing; and this amounts to some defect belonging to it. Hence evil never follows in the effect, unless some other evil pre-exists in the agent or in the matter, as was said above. But in voluntary things the defect of the action comes from the will actually deficient, inasmuch as it does not actually subject itself to its proper rule. This defect, however, is not a fault, but fault follows upon it from the fact that the will acts with this defect.

Reply to Objection 4: Evil has no direct cause, but only an accidental cause, as was said above.

ST.I.Q49.A1.
You quoted:
Objection 3: Further, a deficient effect can proceed only from a deficient cause. But evil is a deficient effect. Therefore its cause, if it has one, is deficient. But everything deficient is an evil. Therefore the cause of evil can only be evil.

Objection 4: Further, Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) that evil has no cause. Therefore good is not the cause of evil.


Both 3 and 4 bring to mind the notion that there can be more than one first cause, or at least, more than one uncaused cause. But Evil does not inhabit such a state as God. There is no duality of that sort, between God and Evil. There can only be one uncaused cause. Evil is a result of cause, if it is anything at all.

It might be useful to the reader to explain what "accidental" means: Per Google:

"The distinction between essential versus accidental properties has been characterized in various ways, but it is often understood in modal terms: an essential property of an object is a property that it must have, while an accidental property of an object is one that it happens to have but that it could lack."

"'Accidental Attribute' is a characteristic of an idea or entity that is not essential to its nature or existence. For example, being musical is an accidental property of human beings, whereas being mortal is an essential property."

I do like that word, "privation". Helps sidestep accusations.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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When was the first evil act/thought and when was it committed. I'm guessing it was before the fall of man... was it also before the creation of the heavens and the earth? Or somewhere in between?

How? When? By whom?

Thank you.
There is no clarity in scripture that tells us anything about sin before the creation of mankind. There is certainly speculation by misinterpreting certain verses but even that falls short of truth. I only read Adam and Eve as the first to disobey God. The serpent was cunning and continues to decieve and led Adam and Eve to sin.
Blessings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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When was the first evil act/thought and when was it committed. I'm guessing it was before the fall of man... was it also before the creation of the heavens and the earth? Or somewhere in between?

How? When? By whom?

Thank you.

Unknown. Though traditional Christian thought says that the devils and their chief, Satan, were angels who fell. It's not really clear how or when. The Bible doesn't seem particularly interested in that subject, it doesn't tell us where the devils came from or what they are; but that they are fallen angels seems intimated enough (especially in light of historical sources and context).

In Christianity it has always been understood that evil is, in a sense, something un-real. That is, Christianity emphatically rejects cosmic dualism. So evil is understood not as a cosmic force in competition with the goodness of God, but is instead the absence and perversion of good. Evil is uncreative, it can only destroy and make grotesque and inferior imitation of the good.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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There is no clarity in scripture that tells us anything about sin before the creation of mankind. There is certainly speculation by misinterpreting certain verses but even that falls short of truth. I only read Adam and Eve as the first to disobey God. The serpent was cunning and continues to decieve and led Adam and Eve to sin.
Blessings.
So, the servant was in opposition to God, no? Not that he was successful in opposing what God had planned all along, but....
 
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TedT

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When was the first evil act/thought and when was it committed. I'm guessing it was before the fall of man... was it also before the creation of the heavens and the earth? Or somewhere in between?

How? When? By whom?
ImCo, by the Satanic rebellion before the foundation of the world, ie, physical creation.

The first evil is the last evil. Created creatures wanting to be God.
People pre-dated the physical world as Job 38:7 tells us.

IF YHWH provided proof of HIS deity to the society of spirits created in HIS image, who could argue against HIM and this proof? Could Satan manifest the GLORY of GOD? If not, how could he claim to be GOD or equal to GOD without also displaying GODlike GLORY?

So it seems most likely that for a true rebellion to the Deity of YHWH to take place it had to happen BEFORE any proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power was given such as in Job 38:7, (Romans 1:18-20).

And it had to be a rebellion to HIS claims to be our Creator GOD made without proof such as by a proclamation of HIS deity and HIS gospel of salvation as is suggested in Colossians 1:23.

Assuming God always knew evil would happen, evil would have to eternally exist somehow, maybe as a possibility.
Possibilities do not indicate existence.

If the possibility of evil (opposition to all GODliness) had a real existence within GOD's mind then YHWH is a house divided and so cannot last: Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. The idea of the eternal existence of evil as an existent evil outside of YHWH is a Gnostic belief shared by Zoroastrianism, et al.

There is no clarity in scripture that tells us anything about sin before the creation of mankind.
...
The serpent was cunning and continues to decieve and led Adam and Eve to sin.
The word `RM, is properly translated as cunning in evil (as well as naked, with different implications), that is, it can be honestly interpreted at face value to mean that he arrived in the garden as fallen with an evil intent to corrupt Eve's relationship with her GOD.

I accept that to be clear evidence of the fall pre-Adam but hey, each to her own, eh?
 
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