Fire Properties Ignite Curiousity

[dad]

While I do take anything that defies the normal laws of physics with a grain of salt, I found this interesting.


A fire has apparently been coming each year on cue once a year, for some 1500 years, that doesn't burn, and has other exotic properties.


"It has been descending on the church for more than 1,500 years..

the fire doesn’t burn during the first moments after its appearance, pilgrims wash their faces and heads in it, apparently suffering no injury.

In the morning the room had been carefully checked for any possible sources of fire. After this, the room was sealed in the presence of Israeli police. "


Miraculous Holy Fire lit in Jerusalem, to be delivered worldwide — RT News

The repeated and observed evidence that spans centuries, including the methodology of inspecting the area first, then sealing it lends some credence to the observations.


I had never heard of this before.

 

[[serious]]

Holy Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I first heard about it when learning about phosphorous in a chemistry class. My understanding is that the candles that are "lit" in this event were taken out from any skeptical eye for some period just prior to the "miracle." The most parsimonious explanation is that the wicks were dipped in a mixture of white phosphorous and some solvent which delayed ignition.

 

[dad]

Holy Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I first heard about it when learning about phosphorous in a chemistry class. My understanding is that the candles that are "lit" in this event were taken out from any skeptical eye for some period just prior to the "miracle." The most parsimonious explanation is that the wicks were dipped in a mixture of white phosphorous and some solvent which delayed ignition.

Ha. So for over 15 full centuries, there have been wicked crooks presiding over the Orthodox church in that area, who all have conspired together with millions of pilgrims who partake in the event and observe it????????? Quite a bizarre charge. Not realistic. If it was a one off, with phoney Pilgrims, and a suspected fraudster clergy you might have a point.

Any proof any Orthodox priest has ever used phosphorous?

 

[dad]

I have to admit this sounds like a pretty plausible reason for doing it.

Pilgramage points have always been meccas for tourist money throughout the ages. It would not be surprising if someone were to take a random chunk of wood and call it a piece of the True Cross just to get visitors to the town or the holy site.

(NOt that it necessarily IS that...but it's certainly not unheard of!)

Now you need to have the pilgrims and keepers of the site in cahoots for something like over 1500 separate times. Doesn't sound likely. Of course isolated crooks abuse positions, and some are greedy, but this would require an organization and multitudes of fire bathers to be in a centuries old cabal!

The pilgrims aren't phoney! The pilgrims truly believe it is a miracle. Maybe it is! But parsimony would call that into question.

Bathing in fire requires more than parsimony one would think. The sealing of the area by no aligned even hostile forces also lends toward the evidence that monkey business was not the order of the day.

It isn't the pilgrims who are the phoneys. The pilgrims are there because they truly want something miraculous.

They are phoney, regardless of what they want, if the manufacture evidence and lie about experiences and observations.

Really? This is the best you have? Is the goal here to prove that no Orthodox priest in human history has ever heard of phosphorus? (Not that it necessarily is that...but it isn't helpful to make the other side prove a negative. That's just bad logic.)

The bad logic is to call real people fakes knowing nothing at all, but some absurd hunch.



Apparently extra devout men of faith organized mere centuries after Jesus live..


"The Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre was traditionally founded in 313 (which corresponds with the Edict of Milan and legalization of Christianity in the Roman Empire) and the foundation of the Churches in the Holy Land by Constantine and St Helen, which is traditionally dated to 326. At first, it bore the name "Order of the Spoudaeoi (studious, zealous, industrious, serious)," or "The Spoudaeoi of the Holy Resurrection of Christ."

The Brotherhood consisted of the ordained clergy charged with the care and preservation of the Holy Sepulchre and other holy places in Jerusalem. They were distinguished primarily for their observance of uninterrupted mental prayer and heartfelt supplication. At the same time, the Members of the Brotherhood were renowned for their virtuous and diligent ascetic life. According to findings of contemporary researchers, they were living ascetic lives before 326 and were organized as an Order during the visit of St Helen to the Holy City. St Cyril of Jerusalem makes mention of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre


You should think twice about calling them dirty low down crooks from the getgo.

 

[dad]

No you don't. Have you ever been to a "magic show"? Were in "cahoots" with the magician?

No, the pilgrims are seeing what they honestly think is a miracle.

So they are on kool aid, and not really bathing in fire?

I have never heard of a magic show that claimed to be true, that went on for over 1500 years. Have you ANY proof that the sort of vile wicked deception you claim ever went on, or has always went on?? Sounds like extremely unbased personal incredulity with a bias.

It doesn't require the pilgrim to be complicit. It only requires the pilgrim to be credulous.

Whatever a person does, if one sticks one face into a fire for periods of time, one will snap out of it pretty quick!

I think you are simply wanting a fight. I did not call them crooks. As I pointed out numerous times this might be a real live miracle. But since humans are known to do things that are NON-MIRACULOUS to make them look like miracles it is a reasonable question to ask.

You insinuated that they had prosperous up their sleeve. You insinuated that all of them did for many many centuries. That to me would be crooked indeed.

Maybe you should dial it back a bit there and relax. If you think it is a miracle that's great! Who knows? Maybe it is!

I doubt it sorely, but I've never seen it myself.

To seriously doubt the observations and the event that happens every single year would require a serious cabal of evil.

I have never seen a miracle so I don't know what one would look like. I've seen PLENTY OF CHEMISTRY in my day (being a chemist) so I'd be less inclined to think a miracle is in play rather than chemistry which can be pretty impressive at times.

One could test the clothes for said chemicals, maybe the site too. Do any chemicals really even fit the bill here? Cool fire, that later turns into actual fire?

 

[Nithavela]

Call us when they actually tested it independently, with results, please.

 

[dad]

Call us when they actually tested it independently, with results, please.

It has been tested over 1500 times apparently with observers. Call us when you grow something more than incredulity based on nothing. Do you have any evidence at all that all these yearly observed events are some sort of insane trick?

 

[dad]

You're missing the point. The audience is shown something that is "miraculous".

Well, if I had a good bath in fire over my hands and face and it was cool, I would not need some priest to tell me it was out of the norm!

What bout Uri Geller in the 1970's? I think he was trying to convince people that what he was doing was pretty darn real.

Was it? Did he confess it was not demons bending the spoons, but some hidden chemical?

I tend to be biased against miracles since I've never seen one that was inexplicable.

Why grasp at phantom straws to try to explain things that were observed, and sully the holy men who organized the fun? This is something that happens every darn year.

I insinuated that HUMANS tend to bamboozle other humans and indeed it would not be beyond the pale for someone to "create" a miracle so others might come to their place.

The holy folks who guard the site and the pilgrims have seen this go on each year for 1500 years apparently. For them to have Roman guards, or later Israeli guards seal up the area and affirm that nothing that could cause a fire was in there seems to indicate a desire to be honest and open. The site needs no extra tourists, it is the spot where Christ was buried, they claim..the church of the Sepulcher.

Well as was noted earlier, there are MANY who have decried this as a sham throughout history. I don't know one way or the other.

Sure! Why not? A good idea.

There were none that apparently did more than cry in the dark though. I'd call that more of a whimper.

 

[Strathos]

Any genuine miracle should stand up to critical and empirical analysis and remain inexplicable, the fact that the people who claim this one don't permit any such analysis to be done makes me quite skeptical. Then again, I'm not EO.

 

[Nithavela]

It has been tested over 1500 times apparently with observers. Call us when you grow something more than incredulity based on nothing. Do you have any evidence at all that all these yearly observed events are some sort of insane trick?

Ajup. As a chemist, I know more than enough ways to make something like this happen. And there has been more than enough reports about shenanigans, since ancient times, to cast serious doubt on this story, including the work of Dobrokohtov. So, the burden of proof for the claim that this is a genuine, extraordinary, real miracle lies on the ones who do believe it to be such.

By the way, even back in the 13th century, this miracle was declared fake by the pope of the time, and I don't think that the churches stance has changed on this issue. And as they hide their 'miracle' behind smoke and mirrors, I don't see any validity in these claims.

Things do not become true if believed by enough people, or for long enough, they need to be evaluated on an objective basis.

 

[dad]

Any genuine miracle should stand up to critical and empirical analysis and remain inexplicable,

Who made that rule up??? Who says that something genuine should not have some cheap copies possible?

I mean one could bathe in a blue floodlight and claim it was fire...but good luck lighting hundreds of candles and lanterns with that later! One does not dispel something that is observed and repeated and subjected to outside checks like the seal, by cooking up some half witted example of how someone could do something similar by outright fraud.

the fact that the people who claim this one don't permit any such analysis to be done makes me quite skeptical. Then again, I'm not EO.

They permitted the area to be sealed and allow pilgrims in to see the event, and even light their lanterns. What do you want...a hot dog stand, and burlesque girls and a cony Island freak show?

 

[dad]

Ajup. As a chemist, I know more than enough ways to make something like this happen.

Oh really??

You can make cool fire in a sealed room for 1500 years that later lights lanterns and candles??

And there has been more than enough reports about shenanigans, since ancient times, to cast serious doubt on this story, including the work of Dobrokohtov.

Says who? Got an English site that lists what this Dobrokotov has??

Smells like bs.

So, the burden of proof for the claim that this is a genuine, extraordinary, real miracle lies on the ones who do believe it to be such.

Since the fire was observed every year for over 1500 years, and the are pre sealed...like the tomb of Christ was, does that not seem reasonable?

By the way, even back in the 13th century, this miracle was declared fake by the pope of the time,

You really want me to google some pope and his credibility for that era!!!?? If that is your witness, forget about it! The Catholics are out of the loop on this one. Any sour grapes from some Inquisitional perv pope would likely not help your side.

and I don't think that the churches stance has changed on this issue.

?? THE church?? No such thing. Not if you mean Roman church. They are not a player here, and are but one 'church' of many.

And as they hide their 'miracle' behind smoke and mirrors, I don't see any validity in these claims.

The site is sacred, and the area has always been less than some free place where people can really be open in a way you seem to want. Such is reality and the world. The pilgrooms this year had problems fro example even getting there at all...even some big UN honcho.

Things do not become true if believed by enough people, or for long enough, they need to be evaluated on an objective basis.

Things observed by millions for centuries and experienced by multitudes do not go away if disbelieved by enough people.

 

[Strathos]

Who made that rule up??? Who says that something genuine should not have some cheap copies possible?

Well of course it can, like the thread a while ago about the illusionist walking on water. Obviously if that was allowed to be examined they'd find the trick he used, but wouldn't find any such thing if they examined Christ doing it.

I mean one could bathe in a blue floodlight and claim it was fire...but good luck lighting hundreds of candles and lanterns with that later! One does not dispel something that is observed and repeated and subjected to outside checks like the seal, by cooking up some half witted example of how someone could do something similar by outright fraud.

Well my point is that, just like a stage magician/illusionist, the EO church doesn't allow skeptical people to examine the events empirically. So that tells me they have something to hide.

They permitted the area to be sealed and allow pilgrims in to see the event, and even light their lanterns. What do you want...a hot dog stand, and burlesque girls and a cony Island freak show?

More like letting people in the sealed room, as well as cameras, and taking chemical samples, etc. as well as observing the process where they enter into it to get the fire and bring it out, you know.

Are you EO, BTW? If not, if you believe this is a genuine miracle, doesn't that mean you should convert?

Do these things convince you that Islam is true?

 

[Nithavela]

I don't converse with people who routinely use more then one exclamation or question mark.

 

[dad]

Well of course it can, like the thread a while ago about the illusionist walking on water. Obviously if that was allowed to be examined they'd find the trick he used, but wouldn't find any such thing if they examined Christ doing it.

If he walked on water in a tank sealed off and did it 1500 times we could talk. Especially if millions of others had experienced the effect also.

Well my point is that, just like a stage magician/illusionist, the EO church doesn't allow skeptical people to examine the events empirically. So that tells me they have something to hide.

Does science? Have you ever seen tree rings 4500 plus deep up close? Have you been to even one star? Have you seen anything decay more than 5000 years?

How would you examine cool fire? I mean if it didn't burn your face off, but yet some hours later it ignited candles and lanterns, what more could you want?

More like letting people in the sealed room, as well as cameras, and taking chemical samples, etc. as well as observing the process where they enter into it to get the fire and bring it out, you know.

How could pilgrims bathe in this fire if it was some closeted thing?

Are you EO, BTW? If not, if you believe this is a genuine miracle, doesn't that mean you should convert?

Hey, miracles for me are like breakfast. Just because McDonald's serves some doesn't mean I need to eat there But if billions of burgers were served, why would I doubt they were?

Do these things convince you that Islam is true?

Looking at clouds or trees that have an unusual shape and assigning the reason for this as a miracle is a far cry from an event happening each and every year for 15 centuries with multitudes of witnesses. There are reasons to doubt people's biased interpretation of nature, but not real reasons to doubt a repeated event observed and experienced by many many people.

In the one case you would need to call many many people over great time absolute crooks and liars, and in the other case we merely need to evaluate obviously biased renditions of selected often rapidly changing (as in clouds etc) snapshots of the natural world.

 

[dad]

I don't converse with people who routinely use more then one exclamation or question mark.

No??!!! Convenient when you have a defeated position I guess. Cheerio.

 

[[serious]]

Ha. So for over 15 full centuries, there have been wicked crooks presiding over the Orthodox church in that area, who all have conspired together with millions of pilgrims who partake in the event and observe it????????? Quite a bizarre charge. Not realistic. If it was a one off, with phoney Pilgrims, and a suspected fraudster clergy you might have a point.

We just had a thread about a walk on water trick by a street magician. Should we start approaching contemporary magicians with the same credulity?

Any proof any Orthodox priest has ever used phosphorous?

Wait, are you suggesting that greek orthodox priests lacked access to or knowledge about chemical reactions that were well known in their time?

 

[[serious]]

No??!!! Convenient when you have a defeated position I guess. Cheerio.

You know,,,,,,,,, he does have a point.......... Extra punctuation adds nothing to your argument,,,,,,,, it merely makes your post look silly...... Really,,,,,,, you should avoid using exclamation points in general most of the time..... To quote F..... Scott Fitzgerald,,,,,, """""Cut out all these exclamation points. An exclamation point is like laughing at your own joke.""""""

 

[dad]

You know,,,,,,,,, he does have a point.......... Extra punctuation adds nothing to your argument,,,,,,,, it merely makes your post look silly...... Really,,,,,,, you should avoid using exclamation points in general most of the time..... To quote F..... Scott Fitzgerald,,,,,, """""Cut out all these exclamation points. An exclamation point is like laughing at your own joke.""""""

So we should reject all things you ever said, because you have punctuation that is imperfect. OK. By the way, it is fine to emphasize a point with an exclamation, or question mark.

 

[dad]

We just had a thread about a walk on water trick by a street magician. Should we start approaching contemporary magicians with the same credulity?

People employed at deception are expected to deceive...like Obama etc.


Pilgrims seeking God, and supposed holy men of God who subject the miracle to being sealed and inspected to assure no games are being played are not in the same category at all!!

Especially when the site is also officiated by opposing religious orders, I think the church of the Sepulche has several different denominations that preside through the year! This also is not some flash in the pan steet act, but a repeated occurrence over great time!

Wait, are you suggesting that greek orthodox priests lacked access to or knowledge about chemical reactions that were well known in their time?

You need to have a substance that first produces cool fire. Not some silly chemical that merely ignites like a time bomb. You also need to have the whole established sacred order there to be a complete fraud from the start, and through all centuries! That is a libelous charge, that is pretty crazy. Proof?

I see no reason to insult them that way.