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RedTulipMom

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I think you have been given alot of good suggestions. The same suggestions i would have given. Check out the Catholic church, the Old Catholic Church, The Episcopal church..see what you think of each and where you feel most comfortable! You may also want to check out the Methodist church or even the Lutheran church. Seems you have been exposed to the fundamentalist side of Christianity...there is a liberal side too! Not every Christian has to fit into a cookie cutter mold. Believe it or not, even within the Roman Catholic church there are tons of liberals and different views on things. In OBOB here you will mostly find conservative and even legalistic Catholics, but don't let that fool you into thinking thats the way the Catholic church is across the board, its not! PM me with any further questions.
karen
 
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Fish and Bread

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karenmarie said:
Believe it or not, even within the Roman Catholic church there are tons of liberals and different views on things.

I love and admire some of the liberal Roman Catholic thinkers like some of the Jesuits, etc. Hans Kung and Andrew Greeley have a lot of interesting insights. The problem I'd have personally with being Roman Catholic myself is that, while there do seem to be liberals, they seem, from my perspective treated with a lack of dignity and respect within the Church. Hans Kung had his teaching authority revoked. Homosexuals are being "weeded out" of the seminaries. The phrase 'cafeteria catholic' is used like a slur word on EWTN. Why would I want to deal with a situation where I'd be heavily pressure to change and be let in for all kinds of abuse if I declined? A lot of traditionalist Roman Catholics have told me that I shouldn't be there if I don't believe as they do, I see no reason not to believe them. :)

John
 
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PaladinValer

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LittleGirlLost said:
I grew up in a pseudo christian household, meaning that we always had some version of an understanding of God & Jesus and if we wanted to go to church it made our parents very happy, but we weren't required to do so.

Reminds me a bit of my childhood experience, but not exactly.

When I was 15, I joined the United Pentecostal Church and was in that until about 1.5 years ago. At that point I started really studying the holiness standards (no haircuts, no make up, no jewelry, only skirts on women, ect.) and determined that they weren't actually backed up by scripture. (This is not meant to debate w/ members of the UPC) Anyway, I left the UPC and started going to a non-denominational church, which I really enjoyed.

Okay.

However, after being asked about messianic prophecy and studying it, I determined that Jesus did not fit the messianic prophecy in the way that a Jew of his time would have understood them. I decided that God would not have told the Jews what to look for and then sent them something else, so Jesus must not have been the messiah. (Once again, this is not meant to be a debate. I'm just trying to explain where I"m coming from so that you guys can talk to me from an educated standpoint) After that, I started to look into converting to Judaism, but further study determined that if the stories in the Bible are 100% true, the God of the Bible is sort of a jerk, and not at all a God that I would think of as kind or good.

Well, you've contradicted yourself here. You read the OT in a Jewish context for trying to understand Jesus, but not to understand God. Jews do not believe in a bloodthirsty God. Out of curiosity, why did you renig?

Ultimately I left altogether, went through a stage of 'trying on' other religions and then became an atheist. I have been very comfortable in my atheism.

I can see why you got to this point, but because of my above, I can see why your next section is the way it is. You really weren't honest with yourself in trying to understand God.

All that being said... I miss God. I just miss him. Logically, I would tend to think he doesn't exist, but my heart misses him. What I don't miss, are people telling me that if I don't look like them I am going to hell.

1. You "miss" God because you want to believe and because deep down, you know you missed something. See my above for more.
2. Let me make this quite clear: anyone who is going to tell you that you are going to hell is not a Christian. People who are playing God are blasphemous and cruel; ignore such people.

I don't believe that the Bible is 100% infallible, but is rather a compilation of stories that are meant to guide you in the right direction.

That's a...part of it, but works-alone won't get you anywhere. It may be comforting, but Christianity isn't about comfort; it is about a struggle.

Meaning that the it's the meaning that counts as opposed to a word for word interpretion. I think that literalists are very dangerous.

Literalism can be dangerous, but to simply exclude all literal interpretations is simply illogical. One needs to be educated in multiple fields to be able to interpret the Bible in a way that makes logical sense. Anyone can simply claim to have the "Holy Spirit," but if their interpretations make no logical sense, then they are not being truthful.

I don't believe that anything is wrong with homosexuality or premarital sex.

The first is, at best, a hot button issue that I'm not going to give opinion on here.

The second, however, is not permitted even in the very liberal branches of Christianity.

I believe that the problem lies with whoring around and disrespecting yourself and/or other people.

That too is condemned, but premarital sex has always been condemned.

I do not believe that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus, or that Jesus remained unmarried.

The first is up to debate in a number of Christian circles.

The second, however, is not. He remained celibate.

The latter is mostly because in his day a Jewish man who was unmarried would not be respected or even viewed as a full man, which is why all Rabbi's of that time were married.

Not true. Marriage was considered a cultural icon, but celibacy was also considered noble too by Jews.

Be very careful when reading "Dan Brown"-type books.

I am very drawn to Catholocism. The main reasons are that I find the concept of saints very comforting. I am very attracted (in a spiritual sense) to the history and tradition of Catholocism. I also appreciate that Mary is seen as divine.... to me, that leaves a lot of room to teach a very powerful respect for women to my son something that I don't believe is as available in the denominations that teach all about Eve and little about Mary.

While the Vatican Church is a true and noble church, one of your reasons for your attraction is unfortunately baseless:

The Vatican Church rejects the notion of St. Mary being divine. She is called "Theotokos," or "God-bearer," but she herself is not divine in the slightest.

The Rosary reads to me as a great form of meditation, something that I find very helpful in my daily life... more helpful than I ever found quite prayer. (I know that sounds weird, but that's how it is) I believe that I can talk to God directly, but also like the concept of confession because of the extra guidance that it allows you.

Excellent.

Based on all of that, I've determined that I would like to join the Catholic church, if I go back, but I am also very, very liberal and am unsure if they would have me.

Based on what you've described, you would not be a good Vatican Catholic. Your beliefs are contrary to a great number of their doctrines and dogmas to the point that it is not an option for you unless you changed you mind on a great deal of topics.

I spent a long time in a church were I had to think and look and act like everyone else in order to feel comfortable and I will not join another one. I think that God made us all different because he appreciates our differences, even when those views mean that we see him differantly.

Well, we have a problem. Christianity does teach that God loves us no matter what we do, He does expect us to live in a certain way. Sinning is, of course, inescapable, but we must repent and do not do it again. So long as we keep up the struggle, God will realize we truly do wish to follow His Will, and will forgive us no matter how many times we fall. However, He will not allow unrepentent sinners into heaven, because He is not going to force them to love Him back.

There is a certain moral code we must follow as Christians.

Anyway, I feel like I don't fit in anywhere. I was thinking of joining a Universalist Unitarian church, but there isn't one around.

The UUA is not truly a Christian denomination, but more like Eclecticism. While it is possible according to what few central beliefs they have to participate in their faith and still call yourself a Christian, that is becoming increasingly more rare.

My next choice is Catholocism, but my understanding is that they are very conservative and strict, which I don't like... I just don't know what to do... Any one??

Well...

If you want to embrace Christianity, you are going to have to give up on some of your opinions (and perhaps more) that you've given here. Even the liberal denominations like the United Church of Christ are not going to accept such concepts like premarital sex. Even to them, that is too special and sacred an act.

If your desire is however to take up your cross, I would suggest the Anglican Church.
  1. It is a Sacramental, Traditional church just like the Vatican Church
  2. It has more subjects that are open to debate (homosexuality, etc)
Now, I'm going to warn you right now: we may be considered more "liberal," and even in a general case that is true when compared with the Vatican Church. However, even the liberal members of it will not accept some of your opinions as viable and we have conservative members too...quite a few.

My advice to you is to reflect on not what you want, but on what God wants. Christianity is about a struggle to accept His Will, not your will. It is the struggle to make God's Will, your will. And it is the struggle to follow God's Will, not simply accept it.

If you think you can do this, then enter into the Christian faith. If not, do not act rashly. God is patient. He will and can wait. He can tell that you are trying and He's probably pleased. Contemplate, ask, and question, and then, after you've gathered enough information, make your decision.

Now, a few quick other corrections:

To you (the OP), Tradition to both the Vatican Church and the Anglican Church is doctrine and dogma as well as discipline and devotion. Discipline and devotions are optional, but everyone must follow the doctrines and dogmas of these churches to be considered good members of them.

Letalis, we Anglicans do have a defined belief system. I suggest you recheck your information (Catholic Answers isn't always the best place for all your needs).
 
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Deb7777

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LittleGirlLost, your looking for a group who shares your like values, as you say on the liberal side of things. Being Cathlic, I didn't want you to have the false idea we believe Mary is divine. We believe Mary is all human and many have a relationship with her as their Mother. Personally, I thank God for his Mother that he has given to us as our Mother, for those who will take her into their hearts & lives like John took her into his intimate dwelling of existence, nothing but a blessing for me. Second, the Catholic Church does teach on many subjects to lead people closer to God. Whatever group you're going to choose, you have to be comfortable with they're leading me to God, they're helping me on my journey to get to Heaven. Not to start a debate here on Churches but for me the Catholic Church is the one that claims Peter as their first Pope. I take comfort the Church of Peter and the early Christians is and always has been intacked and visible throughout history to this day. For me, being a Catholic connects me to the Church of the Apostles but like I said, not a point of debate for me here, but my happy conclusion. As we know, there are many hearts and minds in the world that have reached many different conclusions for whatever reasons. Is God liberal, is God conservative, is God all things for all peoples, many cultures in history even made their God with their own hands. One thing is for sure, God is unchangeable, perfect. Us on the otherhand, as we grow closer to the one who is Perfect can expect change. Best wishes.
 
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Rev. Smith

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I'm going to adress some of your statements, because it is good to look at old things in a new way. At the end I'll share my thoughts on your real question... what should I do?


LittleGirlLost said:
I am in a really weird spot right now and I need some kind of guidance. So, my life story in a nutshell:

I grew up in a pseudo christian household, meaning that we always had some version of an understanding of God & Jesus and if we wanted to go to church it made our parents very happy, but we weren't required to do so. When I was 15, I joined the United Pentecostal Church and was in that until about 1.5 years ago. At that point I started really studying the holiness standards (no haircuts, no make up, no jewelry, only skirts on women, ect.) and determined that they weren't actually backed up by scripture. (This is not meant to debate w/ members of the UPC)

Each church seeks to find holiness. While it is certainly true that much of the UPC's doctrine laks scriptural authority in the sense that each rule has a Levitical Law that can be pointed to in its support, I have always felt (without the slightest temptation to join them :wave: ) that like their Puritin forbears they simply dug deeply into the auterity of Paul. St. Paul often extols sobriety, modesty and simplicity as Christian qualitys. These things are certainly good, but when form replaces function holiness gets lost in strricture. The Puritan replaces the love of God with obdeidence to mandate. Living in this manner will help us avoid sin, but does it lead us to love our neighbor?


Anyway, I left the UPC and started going to a non-denominational church, which I really enjoyed. However, after being asked about messianic prophecy and studying it, I determined that Jesus did not fit the messianic prophecy in the way that a Jew of his time would have understood them. I decided that God would not have told the Jews what to look for and then sent them something else, so Jesus must not have been the messiah. (Once again, this is not meant to be a debate. I'm just trying to explain where I"m coming from so that you guys can talk to me from an educated standpoint) After that, I started to look into converting to Judaism, but further study determined that if the stories in the Bible are 100% true, the God of the Bible is sort of a jerk, and not at all a God that I would think of as kind or good. Ultimately I left altogether, went through a stage of 'trying on' other religions and then became an atheist. I have been very comfortable in my atheism.

Ah.... you have hit upon one of the great problems with the dogma of most Christian churches (not, as we shall discuss, with the Christ himself or his divinity but rather with our triumphalism.)

You see, you are right. Jesus bar Joseph was not the Messiah the Jews awaited, he was not a King of the line of David who drew all the Jews back to the holy land, restored the temple (it was standing for his entire life) and lead all Jews to be observent. Yet he was promised of God. Read Isaiah's promises on the suffering servent. Many of us believe (an idea we got from the Essaines) that God promised two different things, a Messiah - a MAN who is yet to come to fulfill His promises to the Choosen people and the Teacher - to fulfill his promise to reconcile the Gentiles. We believe that Jesus is the latter, the suffering servent of Isaiah.

Church dogma demands that Jesus be the totality, that he be the Messiah - so that we Christians become the "one true" religion. Jesus himself tells us that he has other sheep about which the apostles know nothing. I for one do not believe that God would suddenly decide to break faith with the Jews. I fully expect a King of the line of David to one day sit in Isreal (hopefully my country won't decide to depose him in the name of spreading democracy to the middle east - I'd hate it if it turns out that Armagedden will be our fault)

If Jusus is the suffering servent, the Incarantion of God to make a New Covenant why does that require that all others be wiped away? How is it that we get to limit God?

All that being said... I miss God. I just miss him. Logically, I would tend to think he doesn't exist, but my heart misses him.

This is the really important part, and so I will hold my answer to the end, feel free to skip my opinions and go to the bottom

What I don't miss, are people telling me that if I don't look like them I am going to hell. I don't believe that the Bible is 100% infallible, but is rather a compilation of stories that are meant to guide you in the right direction. Meaning that the it's the meaning that counts as opposed to a word for word interpretion. I think that literalists are very dangerous. I don't believe that anything is wrong with homosexuality or premarital sex. I believe that the problem lies with whoring around and disrespecting yourself and/or other people. I do not believe that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus, or that Jesus remained unmarried. The latter is mostly because in his day a Jewish man who was unmarried would not be respected or even viewed as a full man, which is why all Rabbi's of that time were married.

It is a very human thing, but Jesus tends to get lost in religion. It would be easy to dismiss all of this as evil, or at least venal, but most of the folks who promote these dogmas are sincere. Jesus taught a way of life, he armed us with a Philosophy of holiness. It is simple, pure and perfect. The problem for many is that it is not very detailed. For example Jesus taught us that all the Law and Prophets hang on the proposition that we are to Love God and Love our neighbor. So which of these is promoted or enacted by refraining from wearing cloths with multiple fabrics? To live only in the teachings of Jesus requires a lifetime of study and devotion, and we will make mistakes, sin. In love for the people each of the churches seeks to give a guide for living that they hope will ensure the piety of the faithful. The fact that this has lead to some pretty wacky results shouldn's surprise us, we're a pretty wacky bunch.

I just did a riff on sin over on the Sola Christos thread, if you care it may be useful in your thinking about the triad of God, Man and church.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=19110704#post19110704

I am very drawn to Catholocism. The main reasons are that I find the concept of saints very comforting. I am very attracted (in a spiritual sense) to the history and tradition of Catholocism. I also appreciate that Mary is seen as divine.... to me, that leaves a lot of room to teach a very powerful respect for women to my son something that I don't believe is as available in the denominations that teach all about Eve and little about Mary. The Rosary reads to me as a great form of meditation, something that I find very helpful in my daily life... more helpful than I ever found quite prayer. (I know that sounds weird, but that's how it is :) ) I believe that I can talk to God directly, but also like the concept of confession because of the extra guidance that it allows you.

Based on all of that, I've determined that I would like to join the Catholic church, if I go back, but I am also very, very liberal and am unsure if they would have me. I spent a long time in a church were I had to think and look and act like everyone else in order to feel comfortable and I will not join another one. I think that God made us all different because he appreciates our differences, even when those views mean that we see him differantly.

I love the Cathoic church in all her wonderful variations. She is conservative and liberal, generious and miserly, steeped in tradition and forward looking. There are over a billion of us, and our churchs run from very conservative (some of our priests denounce the liberal moderninity of the Evangelicals) to very liberal (Hans Kung is one of ours). Find one that is comfortable, but remember you are there for Jesus, not the Church.

Now, the only thing I can say to you that matters, because all the rest is my opinion.

All that being said... I miss God. I just miss him. Logically, I would tend to think he doesn't exist, but my heart misses him.

The only proof of God I have ever offered the atheist is this: Listen.
 
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LittleGirlLost

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PaladinValer said:
Reminds me a bit of my childhood experience, but not exactly.

:)

Well, you've contradicted yourself here. You read the OT in a Jewish context for trying to understand Jesus, but not to understand God. Jews do not believe in a bloodthirsty God. Out of curiosity, why did you renig?

I didn't contradict myself. I read the messianic scripture in the Tanakh because that would be what is most accurrate for what Jews of the time would have understood. I think it is closer to the truth than the OT, which was edited for the sake of Christianity. Also, I compared the two and didn't base my final thought on only one, but what the two said when put side by side.

Jews might not believe in a bloodthirsty God, but it doesn't take a lot of reading to determine that that is what they have.

I can see why you got to this point, but because of my above, I can see why your next section is the way it is. You really weren't honest with yourself in trying to understand God.

At the time, I was begging and pleading with God to make any of it make sense to me. I wasn't looking to get rid of Him, but to find him. Although, I don't believe people are ever really 100% honest with themselves, I tried really hard and got as close as I could.


1. You "miss" God because you want to believe and because deep down, you know you missed something. See my above for more.
2. Let me make this quite clear: anyone who is going to tell you that you are going to hell is not a Christian. People who are playing God are blasphemous and cruel; ignore such people.

1. That's what I was thinking. That's why I'm here.
2. They are very hard to ignore when they are all you find anywhere.


That's a...part of it, but works-alone won't get you anywhere. It may be comforting, but Christianity isn't about comfort; it is about a struggle.

...


Literalism can be dangerous, but to simply exclude all literal interpretations is simply illogical. One needs to be educated in multiple fields to be able to interpret the Bible in a way that makes logical sense. Anyone can simply claim to have the "Holy Spirit," but if their interpretations make no logical sense, then they are not being truthful.

Excluding all literal interpretations is the most logical way to read the Bible, IMHO.

The first is, at best, a hot button issue that I'm not going to give opinion on here.

The second, however, is not permitted even in the very liberal branches of Christianity.



That too is condemned, but premarital sex has always been condemned.

Premarital sex is not something that is an issue with me, as I am married. I'm not looking for a place that agrees with everything and I know what the general Christian belief on the subject is.




The first is up to debate in a number of Christian circles.

The second, however, is not. He remained celibate.



Not true. Marriage was considered a cultural icon, but celibacy was also considered noble too by Jews.

Be very careful when reading "Dan Brown"-type books.

I didn't know who Dan Brown was until you wrote that and I looked him up. I really appreciate the assumption that I am basing any of my ideas on what is written by a novelist. There are real history books out there and quite a few Christians who believe he was married. Either way I'm not here to debate the issue. I don't think that Jesus being married really changes anything at all.

While the Vatican Church is a true and noble church, one of your reasons for your attraction is unfortunately baseless:

The Vatican Church rejects the notion of St. Mary being divine. She is called "Theotokos," or "God-bearer," but she herself is not divine in the slightest.

I used the wrong word there, my fault. I don't mean divine in the sense that Jesus is divine, however, I can't think of a better way to word it... blame my public school education for that one! ;)


Based on what you've described, you would not be a good Vatican Catholic. Your beliefs are contrary to a great number of their doctrines and dogmas to the point that it is not an option for you unless you changed you mind on a great deal of topics.

Right, which is why I came here and posed the question of where I should go to people who know more about it than I do.

Well, we have a problem. Christianity does teach that God loves us no matter what we do, He does expect us to live in a certain way. Sinning is, of course, inescapable, but we must repent and do not do it again. So long as we keep up the struggle, God will realize we truly do wish to follow His Will, and will forgive us no matter how many times we fall. However, He will not allow unrepentent sinners into heaven, because He is not going to force them to love Him back.

K... I don't see the problem.

There is a certain moral code we must follow as Christians.

My moral code has not changed at all since I left the church and I see no reason why it would suddenly change because I went back.

The UUA is not truly a Christian denomination, but more like Eclecticism. While it is possible according to what few central beliefs they have to participate in their faith and still call yourself a Christian, that is becoming increasingly more rare.

I have a full understanding of the UU church. The closest one to me is about 40 minutes away and their members are mostly Christian.


Well...

If you want to embrace Christianity, you are going to have to give up on some of your opinions (and perhaps more) that you've given here. Even the liberal denominations like the United Church of Christ are not going to accept such concepts like premarital sex. Even to them, that is too special and sacred an act.

Once again, this is not a real issue with me because I'm married. Thanks for the imput, though.

If your desire is however to take up your cross, I would suggest the Anglican Church.

  1. It is a Sacramental, Traditional church just like the Vatican Church
  2. It has more subjects that are open to debate (homosexuality, etc)

That is my current understanding. (Sorry about the 1's below. I cant' get rid of them for some reason. lol)
Now, I'm going to warn you right now: we may be considered more "liberal," and even in a general case that is true when compared with the Vatican Church. However, even the liberal members of it will not accept some of your opinions as viable and we have conservative members too...quite a few.

I'm not looking for people to accept anything... If I'm wrong, I will happily change my mind. I just don't want to go somewhere where people will immediately look down on me because I'm not them...

My advice to you is to reflect on not what you want, but on what God wants. Christianity is about a struggle to accept His Will, not your will. It is the struggle to make God's Will, your will. And it is the struggle to follow God's Will, not simply accept it.

If you think you can do this, then enter into the Christian faith. If not, do not act rashly. God is patient. He will and can wait. He can tell that you are trying and He's probably pleased. Contemplate, ask, and question, and then, after you've gathered enough information, make your decision.


:thumbsup: Thanks for the advice.


Now, a few quick other corrections:

To you (the OP), Tradition to both the Vatican Church and the Anglican Church is doctrine and dogma as well as discipline and devotion. Discipline and devotions are optional, but everyone must follow the doctrines and dogmas of these churches to be considered good members of them.



Thanks for the correction, although, I'm not sure what you were correcting... still, good info.
 
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LittleGirlLost

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LittleGirlLost, your looking for a group who shares your like values, as you say on the liberal side of things. Being Cathlic, I didn't want you to have the false idea we believe Mary is divine. We believe Mary is all human and many have a relationship with her as their Mother.

That was not what I meant. I corrected myself (sort of) up there. The confusion is totally my fault. :)

Personally, I thank God for his Mother that he has given to us as our Mother, for those who will take her into their hearts & lives like John took her into his intimate dwelling of existence, nothing but a blessing for me.

That was more the attitude I was refering to. Thanks for giving it the words that I couldn't.

Second, the Catholic Church does teach on many subjects to lead people closer to God. Whatever group you're going to choose, you have to be comfortable with they're leading me to God, they're helping me on my journey to get to Heaven.

That is what I'm looking for... assuming, of course, that I really am feeling a need for God and that it isn't something else. That is what I'm exploring now.

Not to start a debate here on Churches but for me the Catholic Church is the one that claims Peter as their first Pope. I take comfort the Church of Peter and the early Christians is and always has been intacked and visible throughout history to this day. For me, being a Catholic connects me to the Church of the Apostles but like I said, not a point of debate for me here, but my happy conclusion. As we know, there are many hearts and minds in the world that have reached many different conclusions for whatever reasons. Is God liberal, is God conservative, is God all things for all peoples, many cultures in history even made their God with their own hands. One thing is for sure, God is unchangeable, perfect. Us on the otherhand, as we grow closer to the one who is Perfect can expect change. Best wishes.

Thanks. I appreciate you're input.
 
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LittleGirlLost

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Rev. Smith said:
I'm going to adress some of your statements, because it is good to look at old things in a new way. At the end I'll share my thoughts on your real question... what should I do?

I've seen you in other threads... so glad to see you here. :thumbsup:

Each church seeks to find holiness. While it is certainly true that much of the UPC's doctrine laks scriptural authority in the sense that each rule has a Levitical Law that can be pointed to in its support, I have always felt (without the slightest temptation to join them :wave: ) that like their Puritin forbears they simply dug deeply into the auterity of Paul. St. Paul often extols sobriety, modesty and simplicity as Christian qualitys. These things are certainly good, but when form replaces function holiness gets lost in strricture. The Puritan replaces the love of God with obdeidence to mandate. Living in this manner will help us avoid sin, but does it lead us to love our neighbor?

I am sort of of the opinion that some people just need those rules and those people are drawn to that kind of church. It got me through my teen years almost completely unscarred... Other than, of course, the bad effects the church itself had on me ;)

Ah.... you have hit upon one of the great problems with the dogma of most Christian churches (not, as we shall discuss, with the Christ himself or his divinity but rather with our triumphalism.)

You see, you are right. Jesus bar Joseph was not the Messiah the Jews awaited, he was not a King of the line of David who drew all the Jews back to the holy land, restored the temple (it was standing for his entire life) and lead all Jews to be observent. Yet he was promised of God. Read Isaiah's promises on the suffering servent. Many of us believe (an idea we got from the Essaines) that God promised two different things, a Messiah - a MAN who is yet to come to fulfill His promises to the Choosen people and the Teacher - to fulfill his promise to reconcile the Gentiles. We believe that Jesus is the latter, the suffering servent of Isaiah.

Church dogma demands that Jesus be the totality, that he be the Messiah - so that we Christians become the "one true" religion. Jesus himself tells us that he has other sheep about which the apostles know nothing. I for one do not believe that God would suddenly decide to break faith with the Jews. I fully expect a King of the line of David to one day sit in Isreal (hopefully my country won't decide to depose him in the name of spreading democracy to the middle east - I'd hate it if it turns out that Armagedden will be our fault)

If Jusus is the suffering servent, the Incarantion of God to make a New Covenant why does that require that all others be wiped away? How is it that we get to limit God?

I would really like to talk to you further about this. Please PM me.

It is a very human thing, but Jesus tends to get lost in religion. It would be easy to dismiss all of this as evil, or at least venal, but most of the folks who promote these dogmas are sincere. Jesus taught a way of life, he armed us with a Philosophy of holiness. It is simple, pure and perfect. The problem for many is that it is not very detailed. For example Jesus taught us that all the Law and Prophets hang on the proposition that we are to Love God and Love our neighbor. So which of these is promoted or enacted by refraining from wearing cloths with multiple fabrics? To live only in the teachings of Jesus requires a lifetime of study and devotion, and we will make mistakes, sin. In love for the people each of the churches seeks to give a guide for living that they hope will ensure the piety of the faithful. The fact that this has lead to some pretty wacky results shouldn's surprise us, we're a pretty wacky bunch.

I just did a riff on sin over on the Sola Christos thread, if you care it may be useful in your thinking about the triad of God, Man and church.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=19110704#post19110704

:)


The only proof of God I have ever offered the atheist is this: Listen.

Sometimes it's hard to determine what your listening to. It took me a long time to get passed the damage that was done by the UPC and I don't know if what I'm feeling now is God or just something that has been beaten into me, figuratively speaking of course.
 
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LittleGirlLost

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AtheistPerson said:
Are you sure your an Atheist? It sounds like your a Diest or an Agnostic. Maybe you should research other religions before calling yourself an Atheist

Up until relatively recently I am sure I was an atheist... now, I am a bit confused.
 
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LittleGirlLost

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:wave: Sorry to scream your name like that, but I needed your attention!

Are all Episcopal churches of the same beliefs? I looked for a local parish on an Episcopalian website and couldn't find one, but I found one listed in the phone book... the last place I ever look these days! LOL

Anyway, I know w/ the UPC you have to go specifically to a United Pentecostal Church, because if it doesn't say 'United', it's a different religion practically.

I was thinking of visiting that church that is nearby because I loved what the site you sent me to said about your church. Especially the program that teaches about other religions because I think that is very, very important. In my opinion, education kills racism and I have children to rear. Anyway, I don't want to go there without talking w/ someone first if there is a chance that what I read on the internet will be drastically different than what I find while I'm there. Of course, I realize that all churches are different because the Pastors or Priests are different, but is it the same basic deal?

It's called St. Annes Episcopal... not that that matters, but it fits w/ what you described.

Thanks.
 
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JesusOfNazareth

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LittleGirlLost, don't worry about it. When I became an atheist, I was sort of lost for a little while. It's a major change in your life, and of course it's going to make you feel empty for a while!

I've been an atheist for about six years now. When I first converted, my life felt miserable for a while, and I wasn't sure what to do. Now...? Well, ever since I accepted my own atheism, I've had the happiest years of my life.
 
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LittleGirlLost

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JesusOfNazareth said:
LittleGirlLost, don't worry about it. When I became an atheist, I was sort of lost for a little while. It's a major change in your life, and of course it's going to make you feel empty for a while!

I've been an atheist for about six years now. When I first converted, my life felt miserable for a while, and I wasn't sure what to do. Now...? Well, ever since I accepted my own atheism, I've had the happiest years of my life.

I expected that to be the case at first, and it was. But a year later? And it's fresh, as opposed to being this way the whole time.

Your icon says you are Christian... what's the deal there?
 
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Fish and Bread

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LittleGirlLost said:
Are all Episcopal churches of the same beliefs? I looked for a local parish on an Episcopalian website and couldn't find one, but I found one listed in the phone book... the last place I ever look these days! LOL

Anyway, I know w/ the UPC you have to go specifically to a United Pentecostal Church, because if it doesn't say 'United', it's a different religion practically.

It's possible that the website may be out of date. One thing I'd check for are any modifiers on the name Episcopal. The "Reformed Episcopal Church" and the "Charasmatic Episcopal Church" are definitely examples of different denominations with different beliefs. If it's just "Episcopal", "Episcopalian", or "Episcopal Church USA", it's probably the right place, though. If you want to be sure, I'd suggest finding the website for the diocese (A diocese is a grouping of a bunch of parishes, often centered around a major city or state, and led by a bishop) and seeing if they list the parish that's in the phone book. The other thing might be to simply try calling the number and asking the parish secretary. I'd imagine if they are one of these other churches, they probably get calls from people who are confused all the time. :)

The Episcopal Church I've been talking about is by far the largest one that carries that name. The Presiding Bishop is Frank Griswold. If you're really brave, you could try calling and mentioning Bishop Gene Robinson of New Hampshire. :) He is the first homosexual bishop and quite a controversial figure. If you hear shouts of dismay on the other end of the line, it's not us (Or at least a very conservative example of an Episcopalian parish). ;) Also, if you can find out the name of your diocesean bishop, simply asking them who their bishop and seeing if it is the same person would let you know if they're part of the denomination we've been discussing. :)

If the parish is anything like the ones I've seen, I'm sure you'd receive a warm welcome if you dropped by for a Eucharist service one Sunday! :) I've gone to out of town parishes and almost been mobbed by people falling all over themselves inviting me to the coffee hour after the service (Though they were respectful when I declined... One nice thing about Episcopalians is that we're enthusiastic, but we also have a good sense of politeness and a quiet dignity about us as a group).

John
 
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LittleGirlLost

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Fish and Bread- Thanks for the info. I think I will visit next Sunday when my mom isn't in town anymore. I don't want her to know I have these questions because she'll get all weird on me and I don't feel like dealing with it. I was a closet atheist for the first few months, now I'm a closet seeker. I don't want to discuss it with people I know until I am somewhere stable. Anyway, being in TX, I would imagine that I won't find a very liberal version of your church... an unfortunate side effect of an otherwise wonderful state. However, they don't use a modifiers, so I think I'll check it out. Supposedly, there is also an Old Catholic church nearby, although not nearly as close as the Episcopalian one, that I can check out on a different day. I think they have service everyday so I will have ample opportunity to go there. If you would like, PM me because I'd love to keep talking with you.

Thank you to everyone for your very informative answers to my questions. I have a new thread to start now... :)
 
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Fish and Bread

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LittleGirlLost said:
Fish and Bread- Thanks for the info. I think I will visit next Sunday when my mom isn't in town anymore. I don't want her to know I have these questions because she'll get all weird on me and I don't feel like dealing with it. I was a closet atheist for the first few months, now I'm a closet seeker. I don't want to discuss it with people I know until I am somewhere stable.

That makes sense to me! A few years back, I had an experience jumping into a faith, telling everyone all about it, and then realizing it wasn't for me in a matter of maybe a month or two. It was kind of embarassing. :) So I took my time and did a pretty comprehensive search the next time and have been involved with the Episcopal Church for nearly two years now (And I anticipate being here for many more years!).

Anyway, being in TX, I would imagine that I won't find a very liberal version of your church... an unfortunate side effect of an otherwise wonderful state. However, they don't use a modifiers, so I think I'll check it out.

Texas Episcopalians do have a reputation for being conservative by Episcopalian standards. The diocese of Ft. Worth has yet to ordain a female to the priesthood (I think it may be the only Episcopal Church diocese left in the whole country that hasn't). Still, conservative by Episcopalian standards is still probably liberal or moderate by Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant standards. I've never met an Episcopalian who hasn't believed in some version of evolution, for example, and even a lot of the conservatives believe in things like female priests and so forth. And there are sometimes liberal parishes even in conservative dioceses. So you should be fine. :)

I'm excited for you! It can be nerve wracking stepping into a new church for the first time, but by doing so you'll be that much closer to finding an uplifting community for you and your child to be a part of, and that's true even if you don't like the Episcopal Church, and all that happens is that you get to cross it off your list. :)

Supposedly, there is also an Old Catholic church nearby, although not nearly as close as the Episcopalian one, that I can check out on a different day. I think they have service everyday so I will have ample opportunity to go there.

Let me know how that goes. I've never been to an Old Catholic Church before, but all the Old Catholics I've spoken to make it sound like an interesting faith community to visit or be a part of. :)

If you would like, PM me because I'd love to keep talking with you.

Thanks for the invitation. Please send me a message and let me know how your visit goes! I'd also be happy to answer any questions that way that you may not want to ask publicly. :)

John
 
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