Finally!

[OldWiseGuy]

Because robbing the place wouldn´t have worked without a threat.
What´s hard to understand about "Either you give me money or I´ll shoot"?

Have you ever heard of criminals (mostly young black men) using a 'robbery' as an excuse to shoot someone. Happens all the time. Also Jacksonville, Fl has a major crime problem. That's why this guy was armed. He walked in on the robbery and was told by the clerk what was happening. I'm guessing (got that JGG?) that he said to himself, "I'm not going to die today."

 

[quatona]

Have you ever heard of criminals (mostly young black men) using a 'robbery' as an excuse to shoot someone.

No. I neither see how it would be an excuse, nor what advantage you´d get from pretending a robbery and then kill your victim over killing him right away. Please explain.

Happens all the time.

All the time? Give me data. Out of 100 robberies how many are performed as an excuse to kill the victim?

Also Jacksonville, Fl has a major crime problem.

Yes, the robbery was a crime, quite obviously.

That's why this guy was armed.

I´m not discussing why he was armed. I am disputing your assertion that he likely saved lives. He saved the store owner´s property.

 

[Git]

If it were only a matter of money or other property, using deadly force might be inappropriate; it's the threat to innocent life that brings deadly force into the defense.

And if you think a criminal holding a knife across the room is no threat, you don't know much about weapons or fighting.

Don't count on appealing to a criminal's better nature; he may not have one.

I know about fighting so much that usually when someone points a guy armed with a knife with a pistol, they will most likely open fire if the knife wielder makes a wrong move out of instinct.

 

[Git]

According the sheriff's report there were two men armed with handguns.

You'd better be careful with that 'vivid imagination' of yours of JGG will be on your case.

I did not read the sheriff's report. It is just that here when a market gets robbed, it is by someone with a knife. Here handguns and guns generally are actually regulated (Since more guns will usually just make the situation bloody worse). Also, the guy who had a concealed gun and opened fire ASAP would go to court here from severe usage of excessive force. In my opinion he is just as guilty to a crime as the robbers were.

Also, I wish that we will never meet. Just by seeing your opinions I am scared of you and your distorted view on life.

 

[hollyda]

I worked for a bank for two years. We discussed robbery scenarios all the time. The most prevalent factor that kept coming up was most average robbers wanted to be in and out, and the few armed robberies that occur around town (and we do get quite a few) have done nothing but support that hypothesis.

I'd like to see some data supporting this, "Robbery used as an excuse for killing" thing. And how it justifies ending the life of another human being, regardless of his/her crimes.

 

[morningstar2651]

Resisting against an armed robber was a TERRIBLE decision that put everyone's lives in danger and resulted in the unnecessary death of a criminal.

 

[Tnmusicman]

It's in Aramaic, another version of my username.

Thanks for the info. I was unfamiliar with Shemjaza until today.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

All the time? Give me data. Out of 100 robberies how many are performed as an excuse to kill the victim?

Here's some examples:

blog.al.com/spotnews/2007/05/2_bank_workers_killed_in_robbe.html

www.norwalkcitizenonline.com/...chosen-for-murder-trial-3811010.php

articles.latimes.com/1997-04-29/news/mn-53623_1_thousand-oaks

www.nytimes.com/1990/01/05/nyregion/man-is-charged-in-fatal-attack

host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/woman-convicted-for

www.hcpros.org/.../2011/...penalty-indictment-aggravated-robbery-cas

articles.cnn.com/2011-06...robbery-raymond-ferguson-arrest?_s=PM:CRIME

www.semissourian.com/story/64630.html

ca.news.yahoo.com/accused-killer-serving-time-robbery-090356146.html

www.ktbs.com/news/Guilty-Verdict-In-Slaying-Of-Pawn-Shop-Clerk/...

www.contracostatimes.com/california/ci_20573683/suspect-identified...


I could fill pages with these accounts. Hope this helps you and others understand what might have been in this hero's mind.

 

[quatona]

Here's some examples:

blog.al.com/spotnews/2007/05/2_bank_workers_killed_in_robbe.html

www.norwalkcitizenonline.com/...chosen-for-murder-trial-3811010.php

articles.latimes.com/1997-04-29/news/mn-53623_1_thousand-oaks

www.nytimes.com/1990/01/05/nyregion/man-is-charged-in-fatal-attack

host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/woman-convicted-for

www.hcpros.org/.../2011/...penalty-indictment-aggravated-robbery-cas

articles.cnn.com/2011-06...robbery-raymond-ferguson-arrest?_s=PM:CRIME

www.semissourian.com/story/64630.html

ca.news.yahoo.com/accused-killer-serving-time-robbery-090356146.html

www.ktbs.com/news/Guilty-Verdict-In-Slaying-Of-Pawn-Shop-Clerk/...

www.contracostatimes.com/california/ci_20573683/suspect-identified...


I could fill pages with these accounts. Hope this helps you and others understand what might have been in this hero's mind.

Looked at some of those links (many 404s), and most of them were not helpful in supporting your claim that people pretend a robbery just to murder.
Anyway, I didn´t ask for anecdotes, I asked for data that supported your claim that it happens "all the time".
I also asked you to explain the logic behind pretending a robbery while actually you want to commit a murder.

Giving this "hero" all benefits of the doubt the most charitable explanation was that he was scared and didn´t think before acting. While that´s understandable in this situation it doesn´t make him a hero.

 

[morningstar2651]

...If my intent is to murder someone, then why disguise it as a murder AND a robbery?

Why would I need an excuse? That's just dumb.

 

[Darkhorse]

Giving this "hero" all benefits of the doubt the most charitable explanation was that he was scared and didn´t think before acting. While that´s understandable in this situation it doesn´t make him a hero.

I agree; it doesn't.

What makes him a hero is risking his life to help other innocent people.

 

[morningstar2651]

I agree; it doesn't.

What makes him a hero is risking his life to help other innocent people.

What makes him an idiot is that he endangered the lives of the clerks and all bystanders by resisting the criminals and ended up killing someone because of his actions.

This isn't an action movie. If someone pulls a weapon, you give them the money. The lives of the people present are worth far more than anything that's in that register.

 

[quatona]

I agree; it doesn't.

What makes him a hero is risking his life to help other innocent people.

I give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven´t read the entire thread: The point I disputed was that he "saved lives".

Anyway: So pulling the gun and shooting put him at risk? The guy I was discussing with (and who called him a "hero") would me believe that his life was at risk, anyway, and that he wanted to eliminate this risk.

I´m not a mind-reader, and I don´t know what exactly motivated him to shoot. What I do know is the result: two people killed, compared to the most likely outcome of some money being robbed - had nobody played "hero". I can´t seem to manage to frame that as a success - not to mention celebrate it.

 

[Darkhorse]

What makes him an idiot is that he endangered the lives of the clerks and all bystanders by resisting the criminals and ended up killing someone because of his actions.

This isn't an action movie. If someone pulls a weapon, you give them the money. The lives of the people present are worth far more than anything that's in that register.

If he could be sure that the crook would take the money and leave without hurting anyone, you are correct. Human life is worth more than cash in the register. The good guys know that; the problem is that too often the crooks don't.

If you can't trust the intentions of a good guy, how can you trust the intentions of a crook?

 

[quatona]

If he could be sure that the crook would take the money and leave without hurting anyone, you are correct. Human life is worth more than cash in the register. The good guys know that; the problem is that too often the crooks don't.

If you can't trust the intentions of a good guy, how can you trust the intentions of a crook?

Actually, it doesn´t require me much trust in their intentions to believe people when they tell me they want to rob me. They seem to be pretty straightforward in revealing their sinister intentions.

 

[HitchSlap]

Armed customer shoots dollar store robber, killing him


By NBC News staff
A Jacksonville, Fla., dollar store customer shot and killed a robber Monday night, ActionNewsJax.com reported.

Follow @NBCNewsUS
According to the report, the customer -- a 57-year-old grandfather -- and two store employees were inside the Dollar General store Monday around 9 p.m. when two armed men entered the store with the intention to rob it.
"One of them had the clerk and one of them was at the front cash register,” Lt. Rob Schoonover of the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office told Jacksonville.com.
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The customer, who has a concealed weapon permit, shot and killed one of the intruders, FirstCoastNews.com reported.
"There was a citizen who had a concealed firearms permit that was inside the store as a customer," Lt. Schoonover told WOKV.com. "He fired at the suspect, striking him and killing him."

The man was found dead when police arrived at the scene. No charges are pending against the shooter, WOKV.com said.

“He’s always been a marksman,” the man's wife told Jacksonville.com. “He shoots in competitions, but this is the first time he’s ever killed anyone and I don’t know how he’ll handle that.”


This man may have saved the lives of all three of them. Bully I say, BULLY! That said we should also pray for him as well.

"It's a helluva thing, killin' a man. You take all he has and all he's gonna have." (Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven.)

"Finally!"

Really? Ok.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...If my intent is to murder someone, then why disguise it as a murder AND a robbery?

Why would I need an excuse? That's just dumb.

Have you ever heard of "Pick 'em out, knock 'em out?" Same mentality.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Looked at some of those links (many 404s), and most of them were not helpful in supporting your claim that people pretend a robbery just to murder.
Anyway, I didn´t ask for anecdotes, I asked for data that supported your claim that it happens "all the time".
I also asked you to explain the logic behind pretending a robbery while actually you want to commit a murder.

Giving this "hero" all benefits of the doubt the most charitable explanation was that he was scared and didn´t think before acting. While that´s understandable in this situation it doesn´t make him a hero.

It would be helpful if you would consider what I actually said rather than reinterpreting my comments into a strawman arguement.

The main thrust of my comment was the frequent unprovoked and thus unpredictable deadly violence inflicted on robbery victims. Note that my 'excuse' comment was in parenthesis and aimed at young black men. That this happens 'all the time', refers to the frequency, not the number of such incidents.

 

[morningstar2651]

Have you ever heard of "Pick 'em out, knock 'em out?" Same mentality.

How is that even related?

You want something that's related? You're probably old enough to remember the New York subway shooting.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I worked for a bank for two years. We discussed robbery scenarios all the time. The most prevalent factor that kept coming up was most average robbers wanted to be in and out, and the few armed robberies that occur around town (and we do get quite a few) have done nothing but support that hypothesis.

So bank employees are never killed by robbers?