Finally!

[JGG]

Do you know the difference between 'justice' and 'mercy'? You are convicting me of having no mercy because I"m applauding justice. Apple and oranges in this case.

That's not justice. Justice is supposed to be striving for a balance. Ask yourself: If the robber had been caught and convicted, would he have received the death sentence?

Also, part of justice, is that everyone deserves a trial before punishment is handed down. That was certainly not the case here.

Here, he received no trial, and was given a punishment that did not fit the crime.

God has overseen the death of millions of his 'loved' ones, i.e. the holocaust. Don't confuse agape with phileo. Knowledgable Christians don't. Jesus didn't abrogate the curses his Father laid on certain peoples. Jesus also warned of Gehenna fire, where the 'trash' was burned.

You can only tear out so many pages of the bible before all you have left is a nice leather cover flapping in the breeze.

I can't believe that Jesus Himself applauds this man's death, and advocated the killing of "human trash."

Actually, I'm not having a hard time believing that. Seems typical for Christianity nowadays.

 

[Glas Ridire]

That's not justice. Justice is supposed to be striving for a balance. Ask yourself: If the robber had been caught and convicted, would he have received the death sentence?

If he would have put the gun down when gramps asked him to, he'd get that fair trial. . .. but like hanging yourself from a bridge using razor wire, there is a point when terminally stupid is. .. . terminal.

Also, part of justice, is that everyone deserves a trial before punishment is handed down. That was certainly not the case here.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding you are having: Grandpa didn't shoot the robber to punish him. Grandpa shot the robber because the robber was presenting an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death to one or more non-criminals (a duty to protect, ethically, morally). When you shoot someone, they often loose interest in continuing their violent felony, which is what grampa was aiming for. It seems to have worked, the robber did indeed stop. Ya see, we who carry do not shoot to punish, we don't shoot to wound, and we don't shoot to kill. If we must shoot, we shoot to stop. As soon as the bad guy stops aggressing, there is no need to keep shooting them. If you find yourself being shot while committing a felony, consider stopping . .. give up. . . I bet ya, you will stop gathering holes.

Here, he received no trial, and was given a punishment that did not fit the crime.

If the robber had shot the clerk and caused that clerk a traumatic brain injury, paralyzing the clerk from the neck down and leaving them unable to speak or eat solid food . .. . If the robber had taken one of the kids hostage and accidentally shot them in the head, If the robber had gunned gramps down and taken the kids hostage, leading police on a chase resulting in a fatal accident, etc. etc. Yes, there is a penalty for robbery, which criminals caught after the fact can experience. When presenting an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death during a felony, being shot dead is something legally and ethically available.

I can't believe that Jesus Himself applauds this man's death, and advocated the killing of "human trash."

Jesus acknowledged that some people will refuse to accept salvation, some people will fail to repent . . . read the Book. Everybody doesn't get to go to the shiny place.

Actually, I'm not having a hard time believing that. Seems typical for Christianity nowadays.

You mean, there are people who have actually read the Bible and support what it says? Oh no, say it ain't so.

 

[Dave Ellis]

So your opinion is based on a very limited and preliminary news report. I'm constructing a reasonable scenario of the entire event based on what likely happened.

Correct, I'm basing my opinion on what was in the news report. You are basing your opinion on something you constructed (i.e. something in your head).

Crooks carry guns to protect themselves, not just to threaten or shoot their victims.

Um, ok? The ironic thing is that the crooks are the ones who didn't shoot anyone in this story.

The sad bottom line in all this is that you athiests are sympathizing with an armed criminal who was killed while threatening the lives of three innocent people, disregarding the plain fact that he knew the risks to himself in this misadventure.

I'm not sympathizing with him at all, I've said multiple times he deserves a few years behind bars.

Unless you're counting the opinion that death is overkill as a punishment for armed robbery as overly sympathetic....

The normal risks are getting caught and going to jail, not taking a bullet through the head. If the store owner had handed over the cash, it's very unlikely anybody would have been hurt at all.

The real sad bottom line is that you're overjoyed and reveling at the fact that someone was killed. Keep in mind, we know nothing about the man who was killed... He may very well have been knocking off the store for beer money, however, he could have also been out of work and knocking off the store to put food on the table or make his rent to keep a roof over his head. We have no idea as it stands, however, if it's the second option, then his death is a real tragedy.

In this case "the right people got shot" (Dirty Harry quote) and you people are having a fit over it.

In an ideal world, nobody would get shot. It's too bad you appear to think otherwise.

Also if you had read other reports about this incident you'll discover that the very reason this man was 'carrying' at the time was because he had to stop at a convenience store late in the evening (the shooting occured about 9:30 PM). He obviouly considered an event like this a possibility, remote as it might be.

This was Jackonville, FL, a high-crime city, not Canada.

Sure, obviously if the man lives in a high crime area, he's not out of line in carrying a weapon to protect himself. This isn't really relevant to the topic though.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If he would have put the gun down when gramps asked him to, he'd get that fair trial. . .. but like hanging yourself from a bridge using razor wire, there is a point when terminally stupid is. .. . terminal.

Did Gramps ask him to put the gun down?

There is a fundamental misunderstanding you are having: Grandpa didn't shoot the robber to punish him. Grandpa shot the robber because the robber was presenting an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death to one or more non-criminals (a duty to protect, ethically, morally). When you shoot someone, they often loose interest in continuing their violent felony, which is what grampa was aiming for. It seems to have worked, the robber did indeed stop. Ya see, we who carry do not shoot to punish, we don't shoot to wound, and we don't shoot to kill. If we must shoot, we shoot to stop. As soon as the bad guy stops aggressing, there is no need to keep shooting them. If you find yourself being shot while committing a felony, consider stopping . .. give up. . . I bet ya, you will stop gathering holes.

Gramps is very lucky he didn't get shot himself. When you're up against two gunmen, and you only have one gun and open fire, you're likely to be on the receiving end of a bullet.

And again, the point is, if Gramps didn't open fire, it's likely nobody would have been full of holes at all.

If the robber had shot the clerk and caused that clerk a traumatic brain injury, paralyzing the clerk from the neck down and leaving them unable to speak or eat solid food . .. . If the robber had taken one of the kids hostage and accidentally shot them in the head, If the robber had gunned gramps down and taken the kids hostage, leading police on a chase resulting in a fatal accident, etc. etc. Yes, there is a penalty for robbery, which criminals caught after the fact can experience. When presenting an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death during a felony, being shot dead is something legally and ethically available.

That's true, however none of those scenarios happened, so it's irrelevant. Odds are extremely high in a robbery, that if you give the robbers what they want, they'll leave without harming you.

Jesus acknowledged that some people will refuse to accept salvation, some people will fail to repent . . . read the Book. Everybody doesn't get to go to the shiny place.

That's irrelevant... if the robber who was killed accepted Jesus as his personal saviour, then going by your theology, he is up in the shiny place right now.

Likewise, the shooter broke one of the commandments (depending on what translation you use).

Great moral system, eh?

You mean, there are people who have actually read the Bible and support what it says? Oh no, say it ain't so.

Of course there are.... Fred Phelps is an example of someone who has read and actively supports and promotes the messages in the Bible.

 

[Glas Ridire]

Um, ok? The ironic thing is that the crooks are the ones who didn't shoot anyone in this story.

It would have been better had grandpa waited til one clerk was dead and then shot? Waited for two store employees to be shot and then shot . .. or not had a gun at all and been victim #3. . .. it reminds me of something . . .

I'm not sympathizing with him at all, I've said multiple times he deserves a few years behind bars.

Unless you're counting the opinion that death is overkill as a punishment for armed robbery as overly sympathetic....

It is not about punishment. People who carry handguns do so, because it strikes the best balance of portability and stopping power against violent felons.

The normal risks are getting caught and going to jail, not taking a bullet through the head. If the store owner had handed over the cash, it's very unlikely anybody would have been hurt at all.

Unless the criminals were like that guy I saw using a knife to mug a bloke at the Piccadilly Circus tube station. . . guy handed over his wallet and still got gut stabbed. It is an assumption that the criminal won't hurt you if you comply, a dice roll . . . with someone who obviously has no regard for pain and trauma they may inflict on the victim even if they just traumatize them out of the job, into years of therapy. How is that smart? Statistics right? Problem is. . . someone has to volunteer to be part of whatever percent don't get the kind robber.

Keep in mind, we know nothing about the man who was killed... He may very well have been knocking off the store for beer money, however, he could have also been out of work and knocking off the store to put food on the table or make his rent to keep a roof over his head.

Wait. Cue dream sequence: Okay, I realize this is the internet, so . . . please PM me all the info I need to borrow from your bank account. I need money for beer and peanuts and a plastic rocket. I promise not to take more than I feel I need. The welfare office says I have too much of my own money and they wouldn't let me buy beer with food stamps, so I need your cash. Toys for tots says I am too old for a plastic rocket, so, um yeah. . . if this wasn't the internet and I said the same things while holding you at gunpoint, it'd be okay because I am just a misunderstood guy who needs stuff You should work to give me. Okay, snap back to reality . . . why does this sound ludicrous? Because it IS!

In an ideal world, nobody would get shot. It's too bad you appear to think otherwise.

Nah, indeed in an ideal world some citizens would carry guns around for absolutely no reason. . . it wouldn't matter how permissive the carry laws are, because no criminal would ever give a citizen a need to defend against a threat of great bodily harm or death to themselves or others. The citizens would quietly carry, the criminals would stick to . . . non-violent felonies. In an ideal world. Next best thing would be if the criminals always surrendered when confronted by a citizen. Third, would be only violent felons being shot when they demand it.

Sure, obviously if the man lives in a high crime area, he's not out of line in carrying a weapon to protect himself. This isn't really relevant to the topic though.

Surely a citizen should be able to carry wherever, because as far as I know . . . criminals aren't restricted from traveling outside these "high crime areas". Maybe if we could get the criminals to all stay in a neighborhood together, with no citizens . .. But . . . why doesn't that seem palitable? Something about that makes my hope for rehabilitation of criminals feel, icky. Nah, it just wouldn't be right would it?

 

[JGG]

If he would have put the gun down when gramps asked him to, he'd get that fair trial. . .. but like hanging yourself from a bridge using razor wire, there is a point when terminally stupid is. .. . terminal.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding you are having: Grandpa didn't shoot the robber to punish him. Grandpa shot the robber because the robber was presenting an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death to one or more non-criminals (a duty to protect, ethically, morally). When you shoot someone, they often loose interest in continuing their violent felony, which is what grampa was aiming for. It seems to have worked, the robber did indeed stop. Ya see, we who carry do not shoot to punish, we don't shoot to wound, and we don't shoot to kill. If we must shoot, we shoot to stop. As soon as the bad guy stops aggressing, there is no need to keep shooting them. If you find yourself being shot while committing a felony, consider stopping . .. give up. . . I bet ya, you will stop gathering holes.

I don't disagree. The robber died because he was stupid. I'm not going to condemn "grandpa" for shooting him. However, let us not pretend that this is justice, and let us not celebrate his death. I hate stupid people too. I don't know this guy who died, but I still don't celebrate his death.

If the robber had shot the clerk and caused that clerk a traumatic brain injury, paralyzing the clerk from the neck down and leaving them unable to speak or eat solid food . .. . If the robber had taken one of the kids hostage and accidentally shot them in the head, If the robber had gunned gramps down and taken the kids hostage, leading police on a chase resulting in a fatal accident, etc. etc. Yes, there is a penalty for robbery, which criminals caught after the fact can experience. When presenting an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death during a felony, being shot dead is something legally and ethically available.

There is a penalty for robbery. It is not death. Again, I'm not condemning "grandpa", as he was in a bad situation, and had to make a choice. He probably made the right one. However, we shouldn't be celebrating this man's death, we certainly shouldn't be calling it justice.

Jesus acknowledged that some people will refuse to accept salvation, some people will fail to repent . . . read the Book. Everybody doesn't get to go to the shiny place.

So, you, like wiseguy, feel that you are fit to judge who "human trash" is and execute them? You're also claiming that people who are not followers of Jesus are "Human Trash?"

You mean, there are people who have actually read the Bible and support what it says? Oh no, say it ain't so.

Honestly? Jesus advocated killing people for being "human trash"? Jesus celebrated people's death?

 

[Glas Ridire]

However, let us not pretend that this is justice, and let us not celebrate his death. I hate stupid people too. I don't know this guy who died, but I still don't celebrate his death.

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and everybody has sinned (Romans 3:23) and it also says that his followers should be prepared for self defense (Luke 22:36) . . . I don't think anybody is celebrating the robbers death, the wife of grandpa was quoted as saying she thought he would have a hard time dealing with it emotionally. It is sad when a violent felon demands through action to be put down as a rabid dog is put down.

There is a penalty for robbery. It is not death.

Without a doubt, the criminal could have put his gun down on the counter and surrendered . . . faced that penalty and gotten on with life. . . but he chose to demand death in much the same way a suicide by cop individual chooses death over getting help. I am sure, based on the news reports, that grandpa would have preferred the robber surrender. He didn't and the robber got shot, it is sad, but not as sad as a non-criminal being shot.

So, you, like wiseguy, feel that you are fit to judge who "human trash" is and execute them?

No, I think you are reading something in that isn't there. Correct me if I am wrong Oldwiseguy, but I thought we were talking about Jesus doing the judging. As a matter of fact you said "Jesus also warned of Gehenna fire, where the 'trash' was burned" which I am guessing you got from reading the original languages, because that is how the Greek reads in like Mark 9:47-48 . .. Anyway, Biblical imagery is not subject to my whim or an old wise guy's it has been around, for centuries. In short, I think my judge will judge us all one day (a reference to a Montgomery Gentry song I am fond of). I have grace, maybe the robber did too, what he didn't have was enough common sense to avoid putting potentially armed people in fear of imminent great bodily harm or death, 'cause that can get a person shot.

Honestly? Jesus advocated killing people for being "human trash"? Jesus celebrated people's death?

Jesus suggested buying a sword (the personal defense weapon of choice in that day) if ya didn't already have one. Jesus said, "the first and greatest commandment is this: that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength and the second is like unto it, that you love your neighbor as yourself". Kind of hard to go on loving Him and spreading the Gospel if you become a corpsified statistic in a forgotten robbery. Hard to take care of your family and loved ones. Hard to think that a person loving their neighbor as themselves would watch as a violent felon robbed and maybe even killed them. The loving thing to do would be to stop the robber. It'd be great if the robber would put down his gun, but if he doesn't you have to think about the two clerks that may have children to feed, you have to think about making it home to your own loved ones as opposed to maybe being killed because you saw them and could identify them. Jesus never said, "become a pacifist and die in a way that shames me". Some people cherish the thought of a martyrs robe too much, and forget about actually living to serve.

 

[JGG]

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and everybody has sinned (Romans 3:23) and it also says that his followers should be prepared for self defense (Luke 22:36) . . .

So, you're saying that sinners should be killed by followers of Jesus?

I don't think anybody is celebrating the robbers death

That's actually what the thread is about.

Without a doubt, the criminal could have put his gun down on the counter and surrendered . . . faced that penalty and gotten on with life. . . but he chose to demand death in much the same way a suicide by cop individual chooses death over getting help. I am sure, based on the news reports, that grandpa would have preferred the robber surrender. He didn't and the robber got shot, it is sad, but not as sad as a non-criminal being shot.

Right. But you're taking joy in the death of another human being, and calling it justice. I'm not. This is not good, this is not justice. Stop pretending that it is.

No, I think you are reading something in that isn't there. Correct me if I am wrong Oldwiseguy, but I thought we were talking about Jesus doing the judging.

No, you and oldwiseguy are judging. You are celebrating the death of human being because you have judged him to be human trash. You are telling us that his death was the execution of justice, and that he deserved to die for being a "bad guy." While you hold yourselves up as the righteous "good guys."

As a matter of fact you said "Jesus also warned of Gehenna fire, where the 'trash' was burned" which I am guessing you got from reading the original languages, because that is how the Greek reads in like Mark 9:47-48 . .. Anyway, Biblical imagery is not subject to my whim or an old wise guy's it has been around, for centuries. In short, I think my judge will judge us all one day (a reference to a Montgomery Gentry song I am fond of). I have grace, maybe the robber did too, what he didn't have was enough common sense to avoid putting potentially armed people in fear of imminent great bodily harm or death, 'cause that can get a person shot.

Sometimes people die because they are stupid. That doesn't mean they deserved to die. This guy died because under the circumstaces his death was inevitable. He didn't die because it was justice, or because he deserved to. He died because that's how things go sometimes. Don't confuse the two.

Jesus suggested buying a sword (the personal defense weapon of choice in that day) if ya didn't already have one. Jesus said, "the first and greatest commandment is this: that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength and the second is like unto it, that you love your neighbor as yourself". Kind of hard to go on loving Him and spreading the Gospel if you become a corpsified statistic in a forgotten robbery. Hard to take care of your family and loved ones. Hard to think that a person loving their neighbor as themselves would watch as a violent felon robbed and maybe even killed them. The loving thing to do would be to stop the robber. It'd be great if the robber would put down his gun, but if he doesn't you have to think about the two clerks that may have children to feed, you have to think about making it home to your own loved ones as opposed to maybe being killed because you saw them and could identify them. Jesus never said, "become a pacifist and die in a way that shames me". Some people cherish the thought of a martyrs robe too much, and forget about actually living to serve.

One more time, the question is: Did Jesus advocate killing people determined to be Human Trash? Does Jesus applaud when "Bad Guys" die. Or, to be more precise, which people does Jesus say we should kill with glee?

 

[morningstar2651]

Re-derailment in progress.

Have some Dee Snider.

We're Not Gonna Take It [Extended Version] - YouTube

 

[Dave Ellis]

It would have been better had grandpa waited til one clerk was dead and then shot? Waited for two store employees to be shot and then shot . .. or not had a gun at all and been victim #3. . .. it reminds me of something . . .

You're missing the point entirely, the point is if Gramps didn't open fire, then it's extremely likely nobody would have.

It is not about punishment. People who carry handguns do so, because it strikes the best balance of portability and stopping power against violent felons.

Perhaps, however it might be wiser to follow the lead of other countries where the murder and violent crime rates are far lower than the U.S....

Just saying...

Unless the criminals were like that guy I saw using a knife to mug a bloke at the Piccadilly Circus tube station. . . guy handed over his wallet and still got gut stabbed. It is an assumption that the criminal won't hurt you if you comply, a dice roll . . . with someone who obviously has no regard for pain and trauma they may inflict on the victim even if they just traumatize them out of the job, into years of therapy. How is that smart? Statistics right? Problem is. . . someone has to volunteer to be part of whatever percent don't get the kind robber.

No question, however, again, you're missing the point.... the odds of someone getting hurt in an armed robbery are extremely small when you comply. Is that rate 100%? No, but it's over 95%.

Once the robbers get their cash, they're usually far more interested in escaping before the cops show up than sticking around and drawing attention to themselves, to needlessly hurt someone and risk further jail time.

Wait. Cue dream sequence: Okay, I realize this is the internet, so . . . please PM me all the info I need to borrow from your bank account. I need money for beer and peanuts and a plastic rocket. I promise not to take more than I feel I need. The welfare office says I have too much of my own money and they wouldn't let me buy beer with food stamps, so I need your cash. Toys for tots says I am too old for a plastic rocket, so, um yeah. . . if this wasn't the internet and I said the same things while holding you at gunpoint, it'd be okay because I am just a misunderstood guy who needs stuff You should work to give me. Okay, snap back to reality . . . why does this sound ludicrous? Because it IS!

Also sounds like a Straw-Man Fallacy... But nice try.

Nah, indeed in an ideal world some citizens would carry guns around for absolutely no reason. . . it wouldn't matter how permissive the carry laws are, because no criminal would ever give a citizen a need to defend against a threat of great bodily harm or death to themselves or others. The citizens would quietly carry, the criminals would stick to . . . non-violent felonies. In an ideal world. Next best thing would be if the criminals always surrendered when confronted by a citizen. Third, would be only violent felons being shot when they demand it.

Yeah, the best way to prevent violence is to arm everyone. We've seen how well that one worked out.

Surely a citizen should be able to carry wherever, because as far as I know . . . criminals aren't restricted from traveling outside these "high crime areas". Maybe if we could get the criminals to all stay in a neighborhood together, with no citizens . .. But . . . why doesn't that seem palitable? Something about that makes my hope for rehabilitation of criminals feel, icky. Nah, it just wouldn't be right would it?

How does this address my point?

 

[Dave Ellis]

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and everybody has sinned (Romans 3:23)

Then why don't you kill yourself?

and it also says that his followers should be prepared for self defense (Luke 22:36) . . . I don't think anybody is celebrating the robbers death, the wife of grandpa was quoted as saying she thought he would have a hard time dealing with it emotionally. It is sad when a violent felon demands through action to be put down as a rabid dog is put down.

Oldwiseguy was celebrating it. And we have no idea that the robber was demanding it... if he's simply demanding money and he'd leave afterwards, then he's certainly not deserving of being shot. He's deserving of Jail time.

Without a doubt, the criminal could have put his gun down on the counter and surrendered . . . faced that penalty and gotten on with life. . . but he chose to demand death in much the same way a suicide by cop individual chooses death over getting help. I am sure, based on the news reports, that grandpa would have preferred the robber surrender. He didn't and the robber got shot, it is sad, but not as sad as a non-criminal being shot.

I'm not aware that the robber demanded death....

No, I think you are reading something in that isn't there. Correct me if I am wrong Oldwiseguy, but I thought we were talking about Jesus doing the judging. As a matter of fact you said "Jesus also warned of Gehenna fire, where the 'trash' was burned" which I am guessing you got from reading the original languages, because that is how the Greek reads in like Mark 9:47-48 . .. Anyway, Biblical imagery is not subject to my whim or an old wise guy's it has been around, for centuries. In short, I think my judge will judge us all one day (a reference to a Montgomery Gentry song I am fond of). I have grace, maybe the robber did too, what he didn't have was enough common sense to avoid putting potentially armed people in fear of imminent great bodily harm or death, 'cause that can get a person shot.

What the robber needed to see was a judge... preferably in a courtroom.

Jesus suggested buying a sword (the personal defense weapon of choice in that day) if ya didn't already have one. Jesus said, "the first and greatest commandment is this: that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength and the second is like unto it, that you love your neighbor as yourself". Kind of hard to go on loving Him and spreading the Gospel if you become a corpsified statistic in a forgotten robbery. Hard to take care of your family and loved ones. Hard to think that a person loving their neighbor as themselves would watch as a violent felon robbed and maybe even killed them. The loving thing to do would be to stop the robber. It'd be great if the robber would put down his gun, but if he doesn't you have to think about the two clerks that may have children to feed, you have to think about making it home to your own loved ones as opposed to maybe being killed because you saw them and could identify them. Jesus never said, "become a pacifist and die in a way that shames me". Some people cherish the thought of a martyrs robe too much, and forget about actually living to serve.

*snore*

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oldwiseguy was celebrating it.
*snore*

Actually I was applauding it, not celebrating it.

 

[selfinflikted]

Actually I was applauding it, not celebrating it.

Doesn't make it any less disturbing.