Finally, Some Common Sense.

[catlover]

In order to be a good Christian one does not need to worship George W. Bush. Thank-God this pastor had the guts to tell it like it is.


Updated: 10:11 PM EDT
IM This E-mail This

Disowning Conservative Politics Is Costly for Pastor

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN, The New York Times

MAPLEWOOD, Minn. (July 30) -- Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing -- and the church's -- to conservative political candidates and causes.



Bill Alkofer, The New York Times
The Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, Minn., lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members after Rev. Gregory Boyd urged an end to sexual moralizing and military glorification and said America should not be proclaimed a "Christian nation," in June.

Talk About It: Post Thoughts


The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.

“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”

Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”

He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

“I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.

Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/disowning-conservative-politics-is/20060729195809990004


I will certainly send this pastor a letter of support. Nationlism is not Christianity.

 

[wcwred]

After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.


AMEN AMEN

 

[Harlan Norris]

In order to be a good Christian one does not need to worship George W. Bush. Thank-God this pastor had the guts to tell it like it is.


Updated: 10:11 PM EDT
IM This E-mail This

Disowning Conservative Politics Is Costly for Pastor

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN, The New York Times

MAPLEWOOD, Minn. (July 30) -- Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing -- and the church's -- to conservative political candidates and causes.



Bill Alkofer, The New York Times
The Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, Minn., lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members after Rev. Gregory Boyd urged an end to sexual moralizing and military glorification and said America should not be proclaimed a "Christian nation," in June.

Talk About It: Post Thoughts


The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.

“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”

Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”

He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

“I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.

Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/disowning-conservative-politics-is/20060729195809990004


I will certainly send this pastor a letter of support. Nationlism is not Christianity.

I just answered a similar thread.It's good to see that at least some have been able to separate politics from the Gospel.As I said in the other thread If his church was in the Denver area.I would attend it.I'm on my third church now,and as of the last service where WMD and Fox news were brought up,I'm still looking

 

[Key]

it is getting harder and harder to wipe the smell of harlot off the pews in the churchs these days.

God Bless

Key

 

[Tomoz]

He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

Oh man, that is unbelievable.

 

[Jipsah]

My thoughts, a piece at a time:

urged an end to sexual moralizing

Why's that? In a time when illegitimacy is more common than not, when abortion is seemingly pandemic, when sexually transmitted diseases kill people in their millions, then it seems to me that the Church would pronounce its insistence on sexual morality, and insist on its practice amongst its members, with ever increasing energy. As it is, we make feeble protests against the zeitgeist while tacitly surrendering to it except in the case of homosexual behavior; and some, like the good reverend, would have us abandon that as well.

military glorification

Agreed. When the Church starts cozying up to Caesar, then the Church loses and the only one who profits is Caesar.

America should not be proclaimed a "Christian nation," in June.

Would that it were a Christian nation, in a Christian world! But that won't happen until our Lord returns.

Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services?

What, protest the legal recognition of a particular sexual sin? How untrendy! Of course, when you have a congregation packed with adulterers, fornicators, and various other sorts of people who scoff at Christian morality it does sound a trifle hypocritical. So rather than clouding up and raining on all those who practice sexual sin, and risk losing members and income, just drop the whole thing and say nothing.

Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit?

God v Caesar again. Caesar should be left outside.

Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work?

Should Christians work to prevent homicide in any form?

Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates?

God v Caesar. See above.

And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

Whose house is it? God's, or Caesar's? If it's Caesar's, put up the flag.

 

[lilymarie]

In order to be a good Christian one does not need to worship George W. Bush. Thank-God this pastor had the guts to tell it like it is.


Updated: 10:11 PM EDT
IM This E-mail This

Disowning Conservative Politics Is Costly for Pastor

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN, The New York Times

MAPLEWOOD, Minn. (July 30) -- Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing -- and the church's -- to conservative political candidates and causes.



Bill Alkofer, The New York Times
The Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, Minn., lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members after Rev. Gregory Boyd urged an end to sexual moralizing and military glorification and said America should not be proclaimed a "Christian nation," in June.

Talk About It: Post Thoughts


The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.

“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”

Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”

He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

“I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.

Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/disowning-conservative-politics-is/20060729195809990004


I will certainly send this pastor a letter of support. Nationlism is not Christianity.

Good for Pastor Boyd! The Lord is leading him in the correct way, not "the right" way. lol

Praise Jesus!

 

[Key]

Whose house is it? God's, or Caesar's?

What a great question, as it seems, that "Line" keeps getting muddier and muddier as 'the Church' seems to deal in politics more and more.

What injury dose it to you, if your neighbor sins?

Who cares if a bunch of Homosexuals want to get state married, does it make invalid the word of God if the Government says “That’s ok”?

If it does, then you really need to ask whose “House” it is, truly.

Do you jump to the forefront and demand reprimand of a Politician that lies, like say, George Bush Jr. Saying that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?

And yet in NJ, the Governor was asked to step down, because he was Gay.

Out of the same mouth we hear “All sins are the same” but yet we do not see that at all in practice.

We see no problem with the church supporting the war, which is, Sending people over to another country to kill the people in that country till they all give up, they self same people stand out side abortion clinics saying abortion is murder, but war is ok.


We see Church members that do not blink at eye at a billion dollar a day war, and yet gawk if they have to pay 1 cent more to help the homeless.

Maybe the problem is, the Church has lost it’s coherency and needs stats laws now to make it feel secure. Has faith in God gotten so pathetic that this is what the church now needs. The secular government to say “Ok, your right in your belief, it’s ok”

What, protest the legal recognition of a particular sexual sin? How untrendy! Of course, when you have a congregation packed with adulterers, fornicators, and various other sorts of people who scoff at Christian morality it does sound a trifle hypocritical. So rather than clouding up and raining on all those who practice sexual sin, and risk losing members and income, just drop the whole thing and say nothing.

No wonder Churches have Whored out.

I see people speak of sexual sins, like they are the Mack daddy of all sins, when they are bottom barrel sins.

Not Putting God FIRST in your life.
Not Loving Your Fellow neighbor
Lying!
Unjustly Killing another Human
Stealing!
Obsessing about what other people have a Do.

Those are SINS, The Top ten, Mack daddy of all of them. And yet, the church and the people in it, are fussing about some Gay people who want some stats rights to protect each other, and provide for each other.

If the Church is so instable, that if Gays marry the church will collapse, then, by God, Please, let the Gays marry.

Why's that? In a time when illegitimacy is more common than not, when abortion is seemingly pandemic, when sexually transmitted diseases kill people in their millions, then it seems to me that the Church would pronounce its insistence on sexual morality, and insist on its practice amongst its members, with ever increasing energy. As it is, we make feeble protests against the zeitgeist while tacitly surrendering to it except in the case of homosexual behavior; and some, like the good reverend, would have us abandon that as well.

Even with abortions as high as they might “Seem” more children are boren today then ever, thanks to technology advances. The children that would have died because of infections, and maternal problems are being saved, thus driving up the number of born children. Unless this is some warped ideal of “How many children can we pump out at max capacity” I see no differential to the abortion rate, as opposed to the number of children being born. It’s not like we don’t have enough people as it is, it’s not like we are pushing father and farther into overpopulating the world with humans as it is. We can afford to lower the birth rate with no losses and no worries about eliminating the Human race.

As for gay people, well, I for one think that it is a great Idea for a couple that can’t have children (Homosexual) to take care of all the unwanted children that are produced by the heterosexual immorality and then the poor misguided and used ladies (because, :: GASP: God forbid we give our Children Proper sexual education) who are now forced to carry to delivery thanks to religious zealot right wing views of some warped idea of sanctity of life and thus banning abortions.

Sorry, I would rather see the church throw all that junk to the curb, and let the state deal with state matters, and have the church deal with church matters.

If not for the misguided power hungry warped views of some religious zealots that want everyone to hold their view of what a utopian society under the despot ruler ship of the church should be, we would not even have these issues.

But I guess, every day we seek to legislate our “Morality” the truly less moral we look to the world. After all, we are supposed to be light of the world, and yet, who sees the Church as little more then just angry hate fuelled people that need to force their views on others. I guess, the reason why the church is dwindling, is because as we legislate our morality, the less people feel a need to find it tough the church when the sate will do just fine, and besides, those “Christians” are not that great anyway, I mean, they are just like everyone else, which is exactly what we never wanted to start with, we wanted to be separate, above, something, shall I say, Higher.

Bah, I am rambling, no point in carrying on really.

God Bless

Key

 

[lilymarie]

What a great question, as it seems, that "Line" keeps getting muddier and muddier as 'the Church' seems to deal in politics more and more.

What injury dose it to you, if your neighbor sins?

Who cares if a bunch of Homosexuals want to get state married, does it make invalid the word of God if the Government says “That’s ok”?

If it does, then you really need to ask whose “House” it is, truly.

Do you jump to the forefront and demand reprimand of a Politician that lies, like say, George Bush Jr. Saying that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?

And yet in NJ, the Governor was asked to step down, because he was Gay.

Out of the same mouth we hear “All sins are the same” but yet we do not see that at all in practice.

We see no problem with the church supporting the war, which is, Sending people over to another country to kill the people in that country till they all give up, they self same people stand out side abortion clinics saying abortion is murder, but war is ok.


We see Church members that do not blink at eye at a billion dollar a day war, and yet gawk if they have to pay 1 cent more to help the homeless.

Maybe the problem is, the Church has lost it’s coherency and needs stats laws now to make it feel secure. Has faith in God gotten so pathetic that this is what the church now needs. The secular government to say “Ok, your right in your belief, it’s ok”





No wonder Churches have Whored out.

I see people speak of sexual sins, like they are the Mack daddy of all sins, when they are bottom barrel sins.

Not Putting God FIRST in your life.
Not Loving Your Fellow neighbor
Lying!
Unjustly Killing another Human
Stealing!
Obsessing about what other people have a Do.

Those are SINS, The Top ten, Mack daddy of all of them. And yet, the church and the people in it, are fussing about some Gay people who want some stats rights to protect each other, and provide for each other.

If the Church is so instable, that if Gays marry the church will collapse, then, by God, Please, let the Gays marry.



Even with abortions as high as they might “Seem” more children are boren today then ever, thanks to technology advances. The children that would have died because of infections, and maternal problems are being saved, thus driving up the number of born children. Unless this is some warped ideal of “How many children can we pump out at max capacity” I see no differential to the abortion rate, as opposed to the number of children being born. It’s not like we don’t have enough people as it is, it’s not like we are pushing father and farther into overpopulating the world with humans as it is. We can afford to lower the birth rate with no losses and no worries about eliminating the Human race.

As for gay people, well, I for one think that it is a great Idea for a couple that can’t have children (Homosexual) to take care of all the unwanted children that are produced by the heterosexual immorality and then the poor misguided and used ladies (because, :: GASP: God forbid we give our Children Proper sexual education) who are now forced to carry to delivery thanks to religious zealot right wing views of some warped idea of sanctity of life and thus banning abortions.

Sorry, I would rather see the church throw all that junk to the curb, and let the state deal with state matters, and have the church deal with church matters.

If not for the misguided power hungry warped views of some religious zealots that want everyone to hold their view of what a utopian society under the despot ruler ship of the church should be, we would not even have these issues.

But I guess, every day we seek to legislate our “Morality” the truly less moral we look to the world. After all, we are supposed to be light of the world, and yet, who sees the Church as little more then just angry hate fuelled people that need to force their views on others. I guess, the reason why the church is dwindling, is because as we legislate our morality, the less people feel a need to find it tough the church when the sate will do just fine, and besides, those “Christians” are not that great anyway, I mean, they are just like everyone else, which is exactly what we never wanted to start with, we wanted to be separate, above, something, shall I say, Higher.

Bah, I am rambling, no point in carrying on really.

God Bless

Key

Nah, we all have a right to ramble once in a while.

It reminds me of Jesus over-turning the peddlers in the temple.

This is a house of prayer, not a political party convention!

I don't think Jesus would be proud of the churches of today.

I'd like to see if I can email Pastor Boyd for standing up for what is correct.

The church is the Lord's house of prayer.

 

[xtothecore]

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
-1 Timothy 4:3-4

Enough said.

 

[catlover]

Nah, we all have a right to ramble once in a while.

It reminds me of Jesus over-turning the peddlers in the temple.

This is a house of prayer, not a political party convention!



The church is the Lord's house of prayer.

Amen!

I will do what I can to get his e-mail.

 

[xtothecore]

To add on to my previous reply, the basis of what this pastor did is not Biblical in any way. Sharing Jesus Christ with others is the mission of the Church on this Earth. Neither acceptance of sin as harmless, nor a good PR campaign fit in with the Gospel.

 

[catlover]

To add on to my previous reply, the basis of what this pastor did is not Biblical in any way. Sharing Jesus Christ with others is the mission of the Church on this Earth. Neither acceptance of sin as harmless, nor a good PR campaign fit in with the Gospel.

If he were on a PR campaign he would hang a picture of Bush in the sanctuary.

The man is 100% on the money, Biblically and every other way. The nationalism mixed with Christianity in this country is repulsive lately. Where does it say in The Bible, one needs to be a Republican?

 

[illudium_phosdex]

I Corinthians5 12 & 13 NIV

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." (emphasis mine).

I honestly need to make this my signature to remind myself that I have no business judgeing the things of this world. In other words, I'm saying I agree with this pastor.

 

[intricatic]

To be a good Christian, one does not need to worship an abstract form of government in general.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Good for him. The Gospel should not be made subservient to Worldly concerns like Politics.

 

[intricatic]

This is why I look for Churches that simply don't care about politics, one way or the other.

 

[xtothecore]

This is why I look for Churches that simply don't care about politics, one way or the other.

While I do not agree that one should have to be a part of the Republican Party (I am not), I do not agree with his saying that the church should not take a stand on issues such as homosexuality, etc. While I associate with people who sin, as I am a sinner, I do not condone their actions in any way. I am firmly against homosexuality and abortion (except in extreme cases, such as rape and health of the mother), but I feel through love of those who know Christ that those who practice the above mentioned can be forgiven for what the Bible dictates as sins as I have been forgiven.

 

[intricatic]

While I do not agree that one should have to be a part of the Republican Party (I am not), I do not agree with his saying that the church should not take a stand on issues such as homosexuality, etc. While I associate with people who sin, as I am a sinner, I do not condone their actions in any way. I am firmly against homosexuality and abortion (except in extreme cases, such as rape and health of the mother), but I feel through love of those who know Christ that those who practice the above mentioned can be forgiven for what the Bible dictates as sins as I have been forgiven.

No, no, you misunderstand me. I feel that public policy plays no part in the operation of the Church. The Church is a seperate entity. We can vote, participate in the system as we wish, but it shouldn't be a factor that influences doctrine or how the Church operates - it should operate according to sound doctrine, internally. No politics, just scripturally sound administration.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

While I do not agree that one should have to be a part of the Republican Party (I am not), I do not agree with his saying that the church should not take a stand on issues such as homosexuality, etc. While I associate with people who sin, as I am a sinner, I do not condone their actions in any way. I am firmly against homosexuality and abortion (except in extreme cases, such as rape and health of the mother), but I feel through love of those who know Christ that those who practice the above mentioned can be forgiven for what the Bible dictates as sins as I have been forgiven.

I don't think he's saying that Christians shouldn't take a stand on certain issues. Rather, I think he's saying that we shouldn't write our positions into law. The law cannot save. It may keep men from murdering, but it cannot keep them from murdering their brothers in their hearts. Only grace can do that. Additionally, he seems to think that there is an overemphasis on taking a stand with respect to certain issues and not others.