Finally, Some Common Sense.

[steen]

I feel that public policy plays no part in the operation of the Church. The Church is a seperate entity. We can vote, participate in the system as we wish, but it shouldn't be a factor that influences doctrine or how the Church operates - it should operate according to sound doctrine, internally. No politics, just scripturally sound administration.

Exactly. It seems like so many of the churches of today are not churches for Christ, but rather anti-abortion churches or anti-homosexual churches. They have become divisive, political machines, leaving God somewhere to merely be used as just another tool in their political warfare. God as a political weapon. It should make us weep.

When that Church somewhere in the Carolinas had the pastor tell people a couple of years ago that they should leave if they were Democrats, then God had left that Church.

 

[imind]

cheers.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
-1 Timothy 4:3-4

Enough said.

And the peasants rejoiced and praised God for giving you wisdom.

 

[lilymarie]

Exactly. It seems like so many of the churches of today are not churches for Christ, but rather anti-abortion churches or anti-homosexual churches. They have become divisive, political machines, leaving God somewhere to merely be used as just another tool in their political warfare. God as a political weapon. It should make us weep.

When that Church somewhere in the Carolinas had the pastor tell people a couple of years ago that they should leave if they were Democrats, then God had left that Church.

So true, and it does make me weep because many Christians are going on blind faith with their political one or two issue electing.

Simply because a presidential candidate says he doesn't "believe" in this or that, does NOT mean the candidate has the power to change anything.

Prayer is our best defense. And also, I think churches could be doing more, such as offering free counseling to unwed pregnant mothers or SOMETHING, other than relying on empty promises which cannot be instantly obtained simply because that is what a candidate "believes".

And not only do we have separation of church and state, this country works on separation from state to state as well. Most issues should be voted on through each individual state, as that is how our government works.

A pastor is a spokesman for God, not a politician's "beliefs", as a president is not all-powerful to suddenly change a country to his or her "beliefs". That is like believing in the Fairy Godmother granting wishes or something. That is far from how our government works.

 

[intricatic]

Exactly. It seems like so many of the churches of today are not churches for Christ, but rather anti-abortion churches or anti-homosexual churches. They have become divisive, political machines, leaving God somewhere to merely be used as just another tool in their political warfare. God as a political weapon. It should make us weep.

When that Church somewhere in the Carolinas had the pastor tell people a couple of years ago that they should leave if they were Democrats, then God had left that Church.

Yep. Exactly like the pastors leading their congregations down postmodern doctrines and not tollerating dissent. I think this is a growing problem on the other end of the spectrum.

 

[catlover]

Exactly. It seems like so many of the churches of today are not churches for Christ, but rather anti-abortion churches or anti-homosexual churches. They have become divisive, political machines, leaving God somewhere to merely be used as just another tool in their political warfare. God as a political weapon. It should make us weep.

.

I wonder what God thinks of people who use Him as a political tool. Is that blasphemy?

 

[ReformedChapin]

No, no, you misunderstand me. I feel that public policy plays no part in the operation of the Church. The Church is a seperate entity. We can vote, participate in the system as we wish, but it shouldn't be a factor that influences doctrine or how the Church operates - it should operate according to sound doctrine, internally. No politics, just scripturally sound administration.

I actually think the church should get involved more, but not be involved with a specific canadiate or party. Both major parties here in the US repulse me, but I rather have conservatives in power than some nutty liberal. I think if the church doesn't get involved the sinners are going to go nuts and come up with some wacked up ideas.

 

[GordonUSC]

I don't think he's saying that Christians shouldn't take a stand on certain issues. Rather, I think he's saying that we shouldn't write our positions into law. The law cannot save. It may keep men from murdering, but it cannot keep them from murdering their brothers in their hearts. Only grace can do that. Additionally, he seems to think that there is an overemphasis on taking a stand with respect to certain issues and not others.

Please bear with me as I am going to disagree with you a bit here.

Christians are still citizens of the political entitity in which they reside are have an equal responsibility to participate in policy debate. I agree that the law can't save anyone's soul but the law can cause or prevent plenty of misery and pain.

Christians should not take the position that gay marriage should not be legally recognized because the Bible calls it a sin, this reasoning would indeed be writing spirituality into law. However, every sin (and I mean every sin) has real life consequences to it. God does not want us to sin in part because he loves us and does not want us hurting ourselves and others. I firmly believe that it is the responsibility of Christians to identify the real life consequences of sin and fight for public policy that appropriately takes those consequences into account.

As far as there being an overemphasis on certain issues and not others I agree that that is the case. However, a serious amount of scholarship has provided some pretty strong evidence that the public sphere can only deal with a limited amount of issue conflicts at any given time, so this will always be the case (see for example E.E. Schattsneider's "Semi Soveriegn People").

Before the sexual revolution the issues that are being overemphasized today were practically ignored, even by churches. At the turn of the 20th century the big issues were all about economic equality and many churches and ministers were actively involved policy fights (William Jennings Brian was their champion then).

The struggle in many churches is that there is a natural tendency to be used as community centers. This is problematic becuase although it seems so positive for the church to benifit the community as part of its witness, the church inevitably becomes embrioled in affairs of the community, which has a tendency to distract from its primary mission to share the good news of Christ and support spiritual growth. This is quite evident in urban chruches that get involved with ministries to the poor, which is a good thing and a good ministry, then end up embroiled in welfare and economic justice public policy issues.

This post was longer then I anticipated it was going to be and for that I apologize.

 

[Blank123]

In order to be a good Christian one does not need to worship George W. Bush.

what? I'm glad someone finally told me!

meh... I have some serious problems with Boyd (if he's the same guy I'm thinking of) but I guess he can't be wrong all the tme

IMHO ascribing your loyalty to any political party is just silliness

 

[artybloke]

From an English perspective: we all have a political affiliation of some kind (I vote Liberal Democrat these days, though if the Labour party were actually socialist rather than ****-licking Bush, who knows...) and there's nothing wrong with that.

The Gospel itself has political implications - especially regarding one's treatment of the poor, the outsider, the widows and orphans that the OT prophets are always complaining are being neglected (no change there then...) but...

Political ideology is nothing more than a form of idolatry: putting one's faith in "princes" as Psalm 119 puts it. Christianity is not about a set of policies to be imposed on people, it's about following Christ. That might include things that your political ideology doesn't want you to do.

Example: the English Quaker poet Basil Bunting was a pacifist conscientious objector during the 1st World War, even went to prison for it. In the 2nd, he saw that the only way to get rid of Hitler was, horribly, to use the violence that he didn't believe in. So he rushed from California to England to join up quick as he could.

Was he doing the right thing? I don't know. But he got involved. That's why I don't think Christians should be absolved from getting political, as long as they are doing it for Christ's sake, not the sake of the political ideology. Is what you do or how you vote a way of loving your neighbour as you love your self? If it isn't, why isn't it?

 

[intricatic]

I subscribe to the theories of the guy This Article is about.