Fighting Christians

[Tellyontellyon]

From what I can tell from the words of Jesus, you are not following Him if you resort to violence, even to save a life.
The soul is everything.

How come it's so common for Christians to contradict the basic pacifist position? Don't Christians have to repent and not willingly continue to hold sinful views?

 

[Hammster]

I’m not sure where you get that viewpoint.

 

[RileyG]

Can you elaborate a bit more?

 

[Tellyontellyon]

I’m not sure where you get that viewpoint.

Jesus speaking in the four gospels.

 

[d taylor]

-​

A believer has to do nothing, they as The Bible states many time, should do etc...

 

[eleos1954]

From what I can tell from the words of Jesus, you are not following Him if you resort to violence, even to save a life.
The soul is everything.

How come it's so common for Christians to contradict the basic pacifist position? Don't Christians have to repent and not willingly continue to hold sinful views?

The Bible extends the idea of violence from the physical to include violence of the mind.

See how God lumps hate, vengeance, and even holding a grudge together here in Leviticus 19:17–18: "You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Jesus echoes this when He says that hating someone is equivalent to murder (Matthew 5:21–22).

There is much in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, about war and killing. One of the ten commandments, usually inadequately translated "Do not kill," more accurately prohibits murder (Exodus 20:13).

Throughout the Old Testament, God leads His people into war to claim what is rightfully theirs, to protect His people, or as an instrument of punishment for wrongdoing. It appears God does not prohibit "just war."

In Romans 13:1–7, we are told to submit ourselves to the officials in the government—which can, among other things, wield the sword against those internally and externally who do not do good. Certainly, though, much violence has been done that would fail to meet God's requirements of societal justice.

 

[eleos1954]

From what I can tell from the words of Jesus, you are not following Him if you resort to violence, even to save a life.
The soul is everything.

How come it's so common for Christians to contradict the basic pacifist position? Don't Christians have to repent and not willingly continue to hold sinful views?

The Bible extends the idea of violence from the physical to include violence of the mind.

See how God lumps hate, vengeance, and even holding a grudge together here in Leviticus 19:17–18: "You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Jesus echoes this when He says that hating someone is equivalent to murder (Matthew 5:21–22).

There is much in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, about war and killing. One of the ten commandments, usually inadequately translated "Do not kill," more accurately prohibits murder (Exodus 20:13).

Throughout the Old Testament, God leads His people into war to claim what is rightfully theirs, to protect His people, or as an instrument of judgement for wrongdoing. It appears God does not prohibit "just war."

Violence comes in different forms.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus speaking in the four gospels.

Could you be more specific?

 

[Blade]

From what I can tell from the words of Jesus, you are not following Him if you resort to violence, even to save a life.
The soul is everything.

How come it's so common for Christians to contradict the basic pacifist position? Don't Christians have to repent and not willingly continue to hold sinful views?

Before He went up told them to take a sword. lets me very clear here "Don't Christians have to repent and not willingly continue to hold sinful views?" you said that God did not.

 

[Clare73]

From what I can tell from the words of Jesus, you are not following Him if you resort to violence, even to save a life.

The words of Jesus are to be understood in the light of all the Scriptures, which show your understanding above to be incorrect.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Simple pacifism is not the message of the New Testament. If Christians accept the legitimacy of earthly governments, earthly governments which rely on violence in the end to enforce their policies and laws, then Christianity cannot be purely pacifistic.

Taking this to a more localized level of say a family. What does the husband owe his wife and children? Should he be willing to tolerate violence or evil done against them in order to do no violence? What does someone owe their best friend when they are in need of a defender? Someone who will sell them to the violent person to do whatever with the friend? When Jesus speaks about turning the other cheek I do not believe this involves our loyalty to our friends and family and those we hold most dear. I would go so far to insist it even means the stranger who we see a wrong being done to.

What would the world be like if we took that teaching to it's extreme reading that some pacifists take it to? No evildoer is resisted, ever. The violent, the corrupt and the powerful would have complete control and there would be no recourse to address grievances because violence as a means of resistance is forbidden to you. If someone demanded your life, you must give it to them. If someone demanded your family's lives in slavery, you must submit them to slavery. Evil would have unlimited sway over the world under such a system because there will always be those who abuse others who take what is not theirs.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

The words of Jesus are to be understood in the light of all the Scriptures, which show your understanding above to be incorrect.

But there is a clear change from the Old to the New testament. Now you are to love your enemies, Peter is forbidden to use his sword.
I'm just looking at the words spoken by Jesus in the four gospels... There is none of the instructions to wage war that is found in the old testament... There is a shift, and Jesus makes it clear that there had been a change. This is a new stage, s new covenant.

He certainly doesn't support a death penalty... And although there are instructions from Paul to follow the laws of the land... that doesn't extend to doing wrong.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Evil would have unlimited sway over the world under such a system because there will always be those who abuse others who take what is not theirs.

God's will shall be done. Can you put yourself in God's hands?

 

[Sketcher]

But there is a clear change from the Old to the New testament. Now you are to love your enemies, Peter is forbidden to use his sword.

Very true, but Jesus was giving up his own life. There's no instructions in the NT to give up the life or the safety of another person in your care. It's one thing to not retaliate to someone who wants to harm me, but if someone wants to harm children in my care, I have no obligation to let them.

I'm just looking at the words spoken by Jesus in the four gospels... There is none of the instructions to wage war that is found in the old testament... There is a shift, and Jesus makes it clear that there had been a change. This is a new stage, s new covenant.

Very true.

He certainly doesn't support a death penalty... And although there are instructions from Paul to follow the laws of the land... that doesn't extend to doing wrong.

That's a controversial interpretation. Of course, the death penalty is different from a self-defense situation, and also from a war situation.

 

[Clare73]

But there is a clear change from the Old to the New testament. Now you are to love your enemies, Peter is forbidden to use his sword.

Peter is told not to use his sword because it is against the law to kill, and if he does so he will executed.

I'm just looking at the words spoken by Jesus in the four gospels... There is none of the instructions to wage war that is found in the old testament... There is a shift, and Jesus makes it clear that there had been a change. This is a new stage, s new covenant.

On what basis do you think it overturns capital punishment, when the word of God shows otherwise?

He certainly doesn't support a death penalty...

Contraire. . .
Jesus was born, raised, lived, preached, and died under the old covenant, whose laws he kept perfectly and endorsed, which included the death penalty under the old covenant.

And although there are instructions from Paul to follow the laws of the land... that doesn't extend to doing wrong.

But who knows the mind of God regarding what is "wrong?"
We. . .or the apostle who received his teaching from Jesus Christ personally (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Nowhere is it stated that the death penalty is abrogated.

The commandment is, "Thou shalt not murder."

The death penalty is not murder, self-defense is not murder, defense of another is murder. . .not all killing is murder.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

The death penalty is not murder

Then go ahead and cast the first stone.

 

[Clare73]

Then go ahead and cast the first stone.

????

I'm not the law. . .nor the judge. . .nor the jury. . .I simply live under the law, which does not allow me to "cast the first stone."

That is the function of our legal system.

????

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

God's will shall be done. Can you put yourself in God's hands?

It isn't God's will we be utterly passive in the face of unjustified violence.

 

[Hammster]

But there is a clear change from the Old to the New testament. Now you are to love your enemies, Peter is forbidden to use his sword.
I'm just looking at the words spoken by Jesus in the four gospels... There is none of the instructions to wage war that is found in the old testament... There is a shift, and Jesus makes it clear that there had been a change. This is a new stage, s new covenant.

He certainly doesn't support a death penalty... And although there are instructions from Paul to follow the laws of the land... that doesn't extend to doing wrong.

Where does Jesus say that He doesn’t support a death penalty?

 

[Tellyontellyon]

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

— Matthew 5:38–39
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

— Matthew 5:43–48, Luke 6:27–28
Put your sword back in its place… for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

— Matthew 26:52
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

— Matthew 5:9