Fentanyl pours into U.S. while Democrats search for "root causes"

[Valletta]

Southern border surge not letting up, as Mexico becomes dominant source of fentanyl in US
Excerpt:
Rep. Abagail Spanberger, D-Va., spoke about some of the challenges and suggested more work looking into the root causes of migration, which she listed as," Instability, violence, threats to the rule of law and a lack of economic opportunity."

 

[Nithavela]

If you meant to post a link, you forgot to do so.

 

[Desk trauma]

Root cause: prohibition.

 

[Petros2015]

Root cause: prohibition.

Root cause: People don't like how they feel.

 

[Nithavela]

Root cause: People don't like how they feel.

Root cause: no escape allowed from the brutal reality that is modern life.

 

[dqhall]

Southern border surge not letting up, as Mexico becomes dominant source of fentanyl in US
Excerpt:
Rep. Abagail Spanberger, D-Va., spoke about some of the challenges and suggested more work looking into the root causes of migration, which she listed as," Instability, violence, threats to the rule of law and a lack of economic opportunity."

Fentanyl overdose is the leading cause of death among Americans 18-45.
https://www.kxxv.com/cdc-fentanyl-overdoses-now-leading-cause-of-death-for-americans-aged-18-to-45

The fentanyl death toll has been worsening since 2016. I read fentanyl comes from China. They shipped the raw ingredients to labs outside of China.
'We Are Shipping To The U.S.': Inside China's Online Synthetic Drug Networks

Alcohol and tobacco also killed many people. Obesity is a bad habit; it increased risk of heart disease, disability and early death.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There's a couple different elements with regards to substance abuse (of any kind).

There's not one clean approach that makes sense for all drug types.

1 - there is the supply/demand aspect (IE: if there's a demand for a certain drug, someone will find a way to supply it)
2 - there is the element of "prohibition creates black markets", which is certainly true
3 - there's the aspect of evaluating what the damage of each drug does

Sound policy exists in the area of balancing all 3, and making an educated and prudent decision (on a drug by drug basis) to determine if the effects of said drugs are more dangerous than the outcome of trying to prohibit it (the black markets and violence that goes with the underground drug trade).

For things like marijuana, it's a no brainer, the prohibition (and black markets that go with it) are far more dangerous than any effect the marijuana is going to have. I even think you could make the same case for certain psychedelics.

For the harder drugs, I'm not so sure that's the same. For instance, I don't think we'd see a drastic reduction in the number of heroin-related deaths and hospitalizations by opening up a legal heroin dispensary.

I think there's a simple question that can be asked that somewhat accurately identifies which drugs should be legalized and which one should remain illegal:

"Is the most dangerous thing about the drug in question the fact that you could be arrested for it or have to drive to a sketchy place to get it?" If the answer is yes, the drug should be legal.

As someone who has (and still does on occasion) enjoy a little toke from time to time, I can say for certain that the most dangerous part about weed was having to go the weird guy's house (who always had guns & such laying around) in order to buy it, and the fact I could get arrested for it if I got caught.

For a drug like Oxy or Heroin, I would say the risks associated with using the drug itself is the most dangerous part about it. Never used either of those two, but I know I've never seen a person going into convulsions and stop breathing from too much weed...however, that seems to be a pretty common outcome for some of the harder drugs.

 

[trunks2k]

For the harder drugs, I'm not so sure that's the same. For instance, I don't think we'd see a drastic reduction in the number of heroin-related deaths and hospitalizations by opening up a legal heroin dispensary.

A dispensary? Probably not. But places where they can use the drug with clean needles and under the supervision of someone with proper training of handling an overdose? That's a different question.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

A dispensary? Probably not. But places where they can use the drug with clean needles and under the supervision of someone with proper training of handling an overdose? That's a different question.

There are already places that have things like a "clean needle exchange" sort of deal.

But even those places are sort of a "last ditch effort" sort of thing to mitigate some harm, but I don't know that it changes the outcome for many who use hard drugs.

This is another aspect that highlights what I was saying about "each drug is different"

For instance, with heroin...the initial use may be for the purposes of getting high, but the long term use becomes less and less about the high, and more and more about dodging the withdraw symptoms.

There are other hard drugs that don't follow that same pattern.

For instance, someone using ecstasy isn't trying to dodge withdraw symptoms, they're looking to party.

Crack users tend to still be "chasing the high" they felt early on in their use which leads to increased dosages, but they're not really dodging the same kind of severe physical withdraw effects associated with heroin use.

A lot of things classified "party drugs" are actually to quit than nicotine in terms of physical withdraw effects.

So that's why each drug needs to be evaluated individually.

 

[public hermit]

Whatever root cause we might consider, we can't ignore the fact that certain drugs are highly addictive. It goes beyond having an addictive personality. I don't care who you are, if you start shooting heroine, the probability of becoming a junkie is almost certain. Lots of folks die who truly wanted to quit.

All that to say, we have to shift our thinking from criminality to rehabilitation and recovery. Quit putting folks in jail. Help them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"Is the most dangerous thing about the drug in question the fact that you could be arrested for it or have to drive to a sketchy place to get it?" If the answer is yes, the drug should be legal.

And if the answer is no?

Like...you know....alcohol.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Whatever root cause we might consider, we can't ignore the fact that certain drugs are highly addictive. It goes beyond having an addictive personality. I don't care who you are, if you start shooting heroine, the probability of becoming a junkie is almost certain. Lots of folks die who truly wanted to quit.

All that to say, we have to shift our thinking from criminality to rehabilitation and recovery. Quit putting folks in jail. Help them.

The problem is coming up with an effective system of treatment for any long term users...

It's not the withdrawal. It's the period after.

Faced with whatever is left of their lives, reputations, work and criminal records, relationships, etc...

The former addict must consider these things from a completely different perspective...typically, one deprived of any joy whatsoever.

Because the long term abuse of the drug changed thr neurochemical pathways of their brain. It's not a fixable problem. They may not be going through withdrawal...but in the light of their day to day circumstances...they almost never feel much joy. Life has lost its spark.

This can last for years. It can take years off a long term addiction to repair the damage done.

Any really difficult day....any above average amount of stress...any temptation from former associates...can become a reason to indulge. Then it's back down the road you go until you start over again.

Many who claim recovery...are actually in between relapses.

It's a tough road. If it were as simple as getting through withdrawal, it would be much much easier. We've learned to mitigate the withdrawal...but afterwards? We're telling someone to continue making the right choices, all the time, of their own will, with few tangible benefits.

We don't have much of a solution for that.

 

[Brihaha]

Whatever root cause we might consider, we can't ignore the fact that certain drugs are highly addictive. It goes beyond having an addictive personality. I don't care who you are, if you start shooting heroine, the probability of becoming a junkie is almost certain. Lots of folks die who truly wanted to quit.

All that to say, we have to shift our thinking from criminality to rehabilitation and recovery. Quit putting folks in jail. Help them.

I have a close friend from college in the 80s. We've kept in touch thru the years. He's even moved in with me a few times to clean up from his addiction to opiates. It is quite heartbreaking to see him struggle with his addiction. He's literally sick for a couple months while detoxing his body. Then when he returns to painting around all the other pill poppers he starts using again. It is truly a vicious cycle of pain, sickness and unhappiness. You have a valid point in that we could do more to help find more tools to fight addiction rather than criminal punishment. Their lives are already filled with punishment. Yet there comes a point where the addict has the tools to stay clean and still choose to abdicate their own responsibility to use again. I'm done letting my friend move in with me. Every time he gets clean he moves back to Kentucky to begin the process all over again. I deserve to have the sober version of my buddy. I've decided my house is not a treatment center any longer. I cannot continue to enable his vicious cycle.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Southern border surge not letting up, as Mexico becomes dominant source of fentanyl in US
Excerpt:
Rep. Abagail Spanberger, D-Va., spoke about some of the challenges and suggested more work looking into the root causes of migration, which she listed as," Instability, violence, threats to the rule of law and a lack of economic opportunity."

Actually, incidents of Fentanyl and Heroin overdoses spiked when the CDC instructed doctors to stop giving pain meds to chronic pain patients - ie, those who actually really need it. Therefore, they turned to illegal drugs for pain relief without guidance or oversight on what they were getting.

The CDC and FDA have changed their recommendations and have the changes open for public comment for the next 6 months. The intent is to prevent pain patients from looking elsewhere for the medication they need.

So, while there's border problems etc. Stopping treating pain patients adequately is a serious problem too and can't be overlooked.

 

[public hermit]

I have a close friend from college in the 80s. We've kept in touch thru the years. He's even moved in with me a few times to clean up from his addiction to opiates. It is quite heartbreaking to see him struggle with his addiction. He's literally sick for a couple months while detoxing his body. Then when he returns to painting around all the other pill poppers he starts using again. It is truly a vicious cycle of pain, sickness and unhappiness. You have a valid point in that we could do more to help find more tools to fight addiction rather than criminal punishment. Their lives are already filled with punishment. Yet there comes a point where the addict has the tools to stay clean and still choose to abdicate their own responsibility to use again. I'm done letting my friend move in with me. Every time he gets clean he moves back to Kentucky to begin the process all over again. I deserve to have the sober version of my buddy. I've decided my house is not a treatment center any longer. I cannot continue to enable his vicious cycle.

Yeah, it's brutal from what I've seen, too. I think you're making the right decision in that instance. I'm not exactly sure what needs to be done to help, but I do think criminalizing addiction has not been helpful.

 

[Brihaha]

Yeah, it's brutal from what I've seen, too. I think you're making the right decision in that instance. I'm not exactly sure what needs to be done to help, but I do think criminalizing addiction has not been helpful.

It is heartbreaking to watch loved ones clean up only to relapse in the near future. As a recovering alcoholic, I do everything in my power to avoid taking the first drink again in fear of the battle for sobriety again. It was plenty hard enough to get sober the first time. There is no guarantee a person can recover again once falling off the wagon. I've given my buddy from Kentucky three or four chances to recover and stay clean. It is his choice to start using again and I refuse to be a part of a destructive co-dependent relationship any longer. I spent years overcoming co-dependency myself. He will eventually die from his addiction because that is usually the outcome of opiate addicts who choose to keep living the life. I finally recognize his addiction is something I cannot change. The Serenity Prayer has helped me understand that fact. Thanks for the discussion. I think I needed to admit some things to myself. Peace

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And if the answer is no?

Like...you know....alcohol.

I'm talking about the drugs that are already in the status of criminalized.

Actually, when alcohol was illegal, it fell into the same category I'd place marijuana in today. Where there were dangers associated with procurement that exceeded the dangers of just having legal alcohol.

One can make an argument that certain drugs can be used safely and responsibly. I don't think I'd put things like crack or PCP on that list.

You don't really hear of just a "social crack user"

It's more like this: