Female Pastors?

[concretecamper]

Still no resolution? Holy Spirit has to be clear on the matter.

 

[All Glory To God]

If you don't want to familiarise yourself with the breadth of the scholarly field, that's ultimately up to you. But you'd be better off not making claims from ignorance.

You would do well to work out what a ''scholar'' is in this era. As for me, Iread the Bible and research on the Protestants that come before me.

Speaking of ignorance you girls can be a good example of that. Between the two female pastor/preachers in this tread we have established between the two of you, you don't understand Sola Scriptura, Thwarting Gods will, Jesus' identity (one said he claimed himself God verbatim), Can't translate Greek after a failed attempt. I have been the one correcting you two on these issue's, which is fine it's the mans place to correct and teach the woman. And we have only scratched the surface. I mean really, are you going to try and call me ignorant?

Here's an interesting thing. I started, initially, not agreeing with women in ordained ministry. It was Scripture (amongst other things) which changed my mind.

No-one can tell me that scripture informs them that women have a licence to be Pastors, because the scripture does not. If they come to that conclusion it has been done by engineering a false view out of the scriptures. Why did really change your mind or perhaps deep down it was like that all along?

Modern Greek is not the language of the Scriptures.

I know it isn't but translating seem's to be your only way of justification. You say ''The English translation is incompatible with my views, so we change it through a new translation or going back to the Greek''. It's the favoured methoud of people seeking to change Gods words to obtain their own agenda. Has it ever occurred to you that all the theologians, translators and pastors had it right and you are just dead wrong?

I have a problem with people who are, by their own admission, not educated in a particular matter, trying to judge the competence of people who are qualified in their field.

Oh please! Learning Greek does not help you understand the Scripture. You actually need to read and learn the Bible to understand the Bible, not the Greek language. But this is where the whole idea of being educated leads. The scripture gets abandoned for language studies, a PHD from a heathen Professor is more desirable than studying from books written by Protestant reformers. This is the reality of progressive churches. There's nothing Godly about them. You just get built up in your own mind by your own self righteousness.

It sets boundaries. But it also has limits. It is not coercive in the way you seem to be advocating for.

This is another reason why I don't think women should have any power: They simply do not have any consistency, because they are not created good for problem solving.

You think it's ''spiritual abuse'' to ban women from being pastors but you seem to be fine exercising authority,power, over people in the form of church authority who do not accept it. Blatant contradiction. Unless you want to admit you are abusing the excommunicated? Then that would be consistent.

It's not my church. It's Christ's church. And I am content with the status quo, where in the church in which I serve, marriage is between a man and a woman.

First of all ''My church does not solemnise same-sex marriages and is extremely unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future...'' but then ''It's not my church'' so again, just trying to dodge around to be right. The other member, a man, answered plainly he does not support it, why can't you be brave enough to give a direct answer?

Another reason why I do not think God gave women a licence to be pastor-they are people pleasers and bend to the popular view easily. Men will not do this, they stand their ground and put a fight for what's theirs.

 

[All Glory To God]

This is funny. My level of Greek pales in comparison to Paidiske's

Congratulations, neither of you can translate Greek. Does it matter?

There are Greek tools available for the layperson. Why you don't use them is beyond me

Because I don't think I can do a better job at translating than the people who come before me. Also, I am not seeking to substantiate a novel ungodly doctrine like women Pastors, which can only be justified by corrupted retranslations or going back to the Greek, with the goal of changing the text from it's true form.

especially given that you are continuing to not budge on your faulty assertion that Paul prescribed male elders in 1 Timothy 3:1, based on your translation's use of "any man."

According to you male only Pastors is faulty, according to the vast majority of Christendom, past and present it is correct and woman are excluded from being Pastors.

No. That would be scripturally indefensible.

Thank you for the straight answer, which our female church leader is unable to do, for some reason.

 

[Paidiske]

Between the two female pastor/preachers in this tread we have established between the two of you, you don't understand Sola Scriptura, Thwarting Gods will, Jesus' identity (one said he claimed himself God verbatim), Can't translate Greek after a failed attempt. I have been the one correcting you two on these issue's, which is fine it's the mans place to correct and teach the woman. And we have only scratched the surface. I mean really, are you going to try and call me ignorant?

I hold a master's degree and an advanced diploma in the field, as well as eight years of experience in ordained ministry (five of those "in charge" of a parish). I read and can translate Koine Greek, have fairly wide knowledge of Biblical studies, theology, church history, ethics, spirituality, liturgy, and pastoral theory and practice. What are your qualifications and experience?

You haven't corrected me on anything, although you have shown the gaps in your own knowledge.

Why did really change your mind or perhaps deep down it was like that all along?

Not at all. If you're interested in my personal story, I wasn't raised going to church. Both of my parents were very lapsed Catholics by the time I came along, and although my mother in particular did share her faith with me - teaching me to pray and to read (and believe) the Bible) - church wasn't part of the landscape of my young life. To the extent that I gave the issue any thought at all, my own fairly conservative personality saw no problem with a male priesthood, and no reason to change that. The first time I saw a woman in a clerical collar (I must have been in my early teens) my reaction was pretty negative.

My thinking on that was challenged as I started to go to church for myself as a young adult. Not that the church I first went to was very supportive of women in ministry (I later had to leave there when I discerned my own vocation) but it did better equip me to engage with the Scriptures, to read more widely and challenge my own thinking. It encouraged me to take seriously the idea that God gives each of us gifts to be used in the service of the church, and that particular people are called to exercise those gifts in roles which carry authority. And I became aware of the debates around women's ordination.

Well before I had any sense of vocation for myself (or any desire for it; I used to say I was a very content lay person and grateful to leave what looked like a very difficult job to others!), I had learned that the Scriptural witness was richer, the history of the church more complex, and the experience of women more challenging, than a flat "no" to women in ministry, and I had come to a place that said that our duty, as Christians, is to be radically obedient to God. If God calls, our response is to be "yes," just as it was for Mary, mother of our Lord; just as it was for the first followers of Jesus; just as it has been for all the faithful through the centuries. And I reached a point where I could not deny the evidence that God has called and continues to call women to serve in these roles.

But that was a position arrived at slowly, over time, taking a lot of work and reading and thinking and praying. It certainly wasn't an instinctive starting point.

I know it isn't but translating seem's to be your only way of justification. You say ''The English translation is incompatible with my views, so we change it through a new translation or going back to the Greek''. It's the favoured methoud of people seeking to change Gods words to obtain their own agenda. Has it ever occurred to you that all the theologians, translators and pastors had it right and you are just dead wrong?

When people support bad theology by pointing to poor translations, it's hard not to have to point out that those translations are, indeed, not doing justice to the original language.

It's not a matter of changing God's word, and it's not a matter of my agenda; rather I'd say that it's about being faithful and accurate in dealing with God's word, and recognising that sometimes translators have had (consciously or unconsciously) some fairly significant biases.

And it's not "all." If you take nothing else away from this, realise that outside your bubble there's a much broader world of theological discourse where the discussion is not nearly so narrow.

Oh please! Learning Greek does not help you understand the Scripture.

It helped me a very great deal. Perhaps you should try it and get back to me about whether you found it helpful?

The scripture gets abandoned for language studies, a PHD from a heathen Professor is more desirable than studying from books written by Protestant reformers.

None of my lecturers were "heathens." They weren't all Protestants (I went to an ecumenical college and studied alongside students and from lecturers of a range of denominations), but I studied in an environment where the person lecturing also knelt alongside you in chapel, morning and evening; and our learning was integrated into a life of prayer. And I studied Luther and Calvin and Cranmer, and others. Really, this sort of statement bears no relation to me, or anything relevant to this discussion.

This is another reason why I don't think women should have any power: They simply do not have any consistency, because they are not created good for problem solving.

This is a flat-out flame.

You think it's ''spiritual abuse'' to ban women from being pastors but you seem to be fine exercising authority,power, over people in the form of church authority who do not accept it.

I didn't say that not allowing women to be ordained was spiritual abuse. I said that using someone's faith to control or coerce them was spiritual abuse.

The other member, a man, answered plainly he does not support it, why can't you be brave enough to give a direct answer?

I did. I told you that the church to which I belong does not solemnise same-sex marriages; does not seem likely to solemnise same-sex marriages in the foreseeable future; and that I have no problem with this.

You made the false accusation that this church does so in an attempt to discredit me. Why should I give this any more time than that?

And the fact that twenty-nine pages into this misogynist thread I'm still here, standing my ground and making my case, really ought to say something.

 

[Strong in Him]

Speaking of ignorance you girls can be a good example of that. Between the two female pastor/preachers in this tread we have established between the two of you, you don't understand Sola Scriptura, Thwarting Gods will, Jesus' identity (one said he claimed himself God verbatim), Can't translate Greek after a failed attempt. I have been the one correcting you two on these issue's, which is fine it's the mans place to correct and teach the woman. And we have only scratched the surface. I mean really, are you going to try and call me ignorant?

Don't know about that, but you're very rude.
Have a look at your user name and ask yourself how your attitude illustrates that.

Oh please! Learning Greek does not help you understand the Scripture. You actually need to read and learn the Bible to understand the Bible, not the Greek language.

The NT was written in Greek - Koine Greek, which is not the same as modern Greek and which you have to study to understand.
It was not written in English. You don't think that learning the language in which the NT was written may help you to understand it?

But this is where the whole idea of being educated leads. The scripture gets abandoned for language studies,

The NT was translated from the Greek into Latin, and later into English so that others may understand it - otherwise, everyone would have to learn Latin before they could read it.
You can only read the Bible in English because a scholar/scholars translated it.

How do you know what the original Greek said unless you learn it, or trust the translators who tell you?

This is another reason why I don't think women should have any power: They simply do not have any consistency, because they are not created good for problem solving.

Nonsense.

Another reason why I do not think God gave women a licence to be pastor

He does - you just don't agree with what he is doing.
The problem is yours.

they are people pleasers and bend to the popular view easily. Men will not do this, they stand their ground and put a fight for what's theirs.

Generalisation and nonsense.
Tell me, was the UK's first female PM a people pleaser?
Were Joan of Arc, Florence Nightingale, Elizabeth Fry, Marie Curie people pleasers? Have women who sail round the world, climb mountains play football, cricket, lift weights and do other sports, and have no doubt endured years of "women can't do that" taunts, bent to public opinion?
What about Edward VIII; did he put up a fight for what was his - the crown - or give up so that he could please himself and marry whom he wished?

And if you want Biblical examples; what about Deborah, who led Israel for 40 years? Or Esther who stood up to a pagan king and saved the nation from destruction? Or Zipporah, who acted quickly and prevented Moses from being killed? Or Hannah, who stood up to her husband, and to Eli who thought she was drunk? Or the woman with the issue of blood, when she defied the law, went out in public though she was unclean and pushed through the crowd - making them all unclean too - just to touch Jesus? She certainly didn't bow to other people's opinions.
What about the 400 male prophets who all gave Ahab a favourable prophecy - were they trying to please him and bend to popular will?

From what I've seen, women have to fight harder than men to be recognised/accepted simply because they are women and no one expects, or thinks we should be allowed, to do things.

 

[All Glory To God]

I hold a . . . What are your qualifications and experience?

You have a degree and you are self praising yourself. This is not Christs Teaching. He taught his people to take the lower seat (humility) and let others move you up to higher seats (recognition). What you are doing is putting yourself in the higher seat (pride) and I am bringing you down by highlighting your contradictions and disharmony with the ancient church, traditional Protestantism, scripture and even logic itself.

The display you and others have shown us is exactly the reason I do not pursue degree's. It just creates a sense of self righteousness without the fruit/production.

You haven't corrected me on anything.

Actually, I have. You don't even understand what thwarting Gods will looks like. You belive everything that happens is pleasing to God. I corrected this in post #549. Perhaps you will not take the correction but that will just be another error you are holding on to going forward.

When people support bad theology by pointing to poor translations . . .

The traditional translations is poor because you say it is poor. Not because these men lacked education. They spoke more languages and had more university and church training than you do. And studied theology and church history far more than you....but their wrong because you say they are. Right.

And it's not "all." If you take nothing else away from this, realise that outside your bubble there's a much broader world of theological discourse where the discussion is not nearly so narrow.

Historically it is unanimous. In the last few decades, things have changed. Should I go with what the old church and traditional Protestantism teaches, or a progressive Christianity that is younger than my parents? I think I will go with the way it has always been. You take a chance on the novelty by all means. But it seems high risk to me.

It helped me a very great deal. Perhaps you should try it and get back to me about whether you found it helpful?

I'm not interested in learning Greek. I don't think I can do a better job than all the people who come before me. Maybe you just need to humble yourself.

my lecturers. . .Really, this sort of statement bears no relation to me, or anything relevant to this discussion.

Well you are the one who keeps bringing up you degree and qualifications. If you don't want to talk about it, just stop it and we won't talk about it.

This is a flat-out flame.

Take it like a man. Don't run off to get someone to bail you out, just deal with it. You say you can stand your ground, well this shouldn't even bother you.

I did. I told you that the church to which I belong does not solemnise same-sex marriages; does not seem likely to solemnise same-sex marriages in the foreseeable future; and that I have no problem with this.

I asked you do you support homosexuals being married in your church, the church your pastor, yes or no? And you dodged it completely by giving a indecisive answer But it doesn't matter.

You made the false accusation that this church does so in an attempt to discredit me.

How is this a false accusation? The Episcopalian church ''marries gays'' and you are an Episcopalian. Okay, you make a distinction between countries but I gave you the opportunity to clarify your own personal position. There's nothing accusatory about it. Again, it doesn't matter.

Why should I give this any more time than that?

It's your choice. If you don't want to talk, don't talk.

And the fact that twenty-nine pages into this misogynist thread I'm still here, standing my ground and making my case, really ought to say something.

You have had assistance from moderators as well. Some of my posts have been removed and you keep appealing to them for help in your complaints, by calling my comments ''flames'' so you need help.

If you truly want to stand up for yourself stop running off to the authorities to bail you out.

 

[Paidiske]

You have a degree and you are self praising yourself.

No, I'm making a statement of fact, and establishing my background for this conversation.

It just creates a sense of self righteousness without the fruit/production.

It also provides the necessary equipping for actually doing the work of ministry.

You don't even understand what thatwing Gods will looks like. You belive everything that happens is pleasing to God.

No, I don't. Nor have I said that. I think you have quite misunderstood me.

The traditional translations is poor because you say it is poor.

In one case, a simple copy and paste from an interlinear was enough to show you.

Well you are the one who keeps bringing up you degree and qualifications. If you don't want to talk about it, just stop it and we won't talk about it.

I bring it up because you keep suggesting I don't actually know what I'm talking about.

I asked you do you support homosexuals being married in your church, the church your pastor, yes or no? And you dodged it completely.

No, I didn't dodge it at all. I made my position, and the position of this church, very clear.

But it doesn't matter.

Then why keep bringing up things that don't matter? Is it, perhaps, that establishing your position on grounds which do matter is a tenuous thing?

How is this a false accusation?

The church in which I serve does not solemnise same-sex marriages. It really can't be any more simple than that.

As for reports, moderation, and the rest, my general practice is to first point out to people how their posts break the rules. And only if they persist after that to report. But I am not the only one in this thread, and you cannot know how many people might have reported a post.

But in that vein, let me also point out to you the rules around disruptive posts, which are also likely to get you into trouble.

 

[All Glory To God]

Don't know about that, but you're very rude.
. . .

Don't talk to me than if you think I am very rude. Because if you are going to be hostile to me you should find someone else to dialogue with. I'm not a doormat. Decision is yours.

 

[Strong in Him]

Don't talk to me than if you think I am very rude. Because if you are going to be hostile to me you should find someone else to dialogue with. I'm not a doormat. Decision is yours.

I'm not being hostile; I am stating a fact.

That you haven't quoted any of the rest of my posts suggests that you maybe don't want to dialogue either - either that, or you have no answer for it.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Still no resolution? Holy Spirit has to be clear on the matter.

yes he has, "In Christ we are a new creation, former things have passed away"

"In Christ there is neither male nor female,"

 

[concretecamper]

yes he has, "In Christ we are a new creation, former things have passed away"

"In Christ there is neither male nor female,"

based on this answer, it is apparent you have no idea what the Holy Spirit is telling us about whether there should be women pastors.

All this conversation and still we have division. Say it ain't so.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

based on this answer, it is apparent you have no idea what the Holy Spirit is telling us about whether there should be women pastors.

All this conversation and still we have division. Say it ain't so.

that is the word of God. so you you clearly are not in touch with the Holy Spirit.

not really supersized though. since you don't uses the scripture.

 

[ARBITER01]

yes he has, "In Christ we are a new creation, former things have passed away"

"In Christ there is neither male nor female,"

That would be applying that verse incorrectly.

In GOD's eyes He only see Jesus and His work in us, but down here in time, we have our differences. Men and women each have capacities that the other doesn't.

Men do have a greater leadership capacity than women, and we can't just be blind to it. Can women fill in a leadership capacity? Yes, but GOD can use a man in that position to a much greater effect, especially when we are talking about GOD working through us in His power.

 

[Paidiske]

Men do have a greater leadership capacity than women

What a bizarre statement. What is your evidence for this claim? Starting, perhaps, with a definition of leadership capacity.

 

[ARBITER01]

What a bizarre statement. What is your evidence for this claim? Starting, perhaps, with a definition of leadership capacity.

Nothing bizarre about it at all.

I did 20 years in the military, I seen a few men that had a leadership capacity where men would of followed them into death for, simply because they were inspired by them to do so.

It's a natural talent that some have.

I seen some aspects of leadership in one woman over those 20 years, and this wasn't because she was an officer wearing a uniform, she had some of that natural talent, but it paled in comparison to those men who demonstrated it. They had it in spades.

 

[Paidiske]

I wonder whether the military attracts (or encourages) relatively few capable women leaders relative to other fields.

I would say, in the church, I have seen just as many excellent women leaders as men. Although there are many (of both sexes) in leadership roles who are not great leaders.

 

[ARBITER01]

I wonder whether the military attracts (or encourages) relatively few capable women leaders relative to other fields.

I would say, in the church, I have seen just as many excellent women leaders as men. Although there are many (of both sexes) in leadership roles who are not great leaders.

All the military branches go out of their way to encourage women to join now. The Navy started it back in the 90's.

Do you view leadership as something of the mind?

 

[Paidiske]

Do you view leadership as something of the mind?

That's part of it, but only part. I view leadership as having the vision (knowing where we need to go), the skill to plan (how we are going to get there), and the ability to inspire, encourage and equip others (actually getting people moving). So there's an intellectual aspect, and a relational aspect, and a heck of a lot of practical skill/knowledge/wisdom.

Inspiration is important, but in parish life, it's not enough on its own, to inspire people. You need a whole lot of other skills (like conflict management, and strategic planning, and administration) besides a compelling vision of the reign of God and what it calls us to in this time and place.

I suspect that one significant difference between the military and the church is that in church life, the minister is often the only person who is being paid to do their part, and the rest of the people are there voluntarily. You have to work with whoever's willing to show up, no matter their level of personal maturity, capacity, skills and life experience, or buy-in to the vision. There's no such thing as giving orders, and often the flock moves at the pace of the slowest sheep.

 

[ARBITER01]

That's part of it, but only part. I view leadership as having the vision (knowing where we need to go), the skill to plan (how we are going to get there), and the ability to inspire, encourage and equip others (actually getting people moving). So there's an intellectual aspect, and a relational aspect, and a heck of a lot of practical skill/knowledge/wisdom.

Inspiration is important, but in parish life, it's not enough on its own, to inspire people. You need a whole lot of other skills (like conflict management, and strategic planning, and administration) besides a compelling vision of the reign of God and what it calls us to in this time and place.

I suspect that one significant difference between the military and the church is that in church life, the minister is often the only person who is being paid to do their part, and the rest of the people are there voluntarily. You have to work with whoever's willing to show up, no matter their level of personal maturity, capacity, skills and life experience, or buy-in to the vision. There's no such thing as giving orders, and often the flock moves at the pace of the slowest sheep.

Good post.

You could have all those abilities you mentioned, but not inspire folks to greater heights with you.

This is why I view leadership as a thing of our human spirit. It's a capacity that can sort of ooze out of a person naturally, where it changes your disposition in that person's presence. It can automatically command a respect out of you that would not be found in another.

This is why I call it a leadership capacity. Not everyone will have it, but those that do are very noticeable.

 

[Paidiske]

This is why I view leadership as a thing of our human spirit. It's a capacity that can sort of ooze out of a person naturally, where it changes your disposition in that person's presence. It can automatically command a respect out of you that would not be found in another.

I think I know what you're talking about, although I think leadership is also more than that.

But I just don't agree that what you describe here is a gendered trait.