Female Pastors?

[ARBITER01]

I am adamantly against woman holding the office of Pastor.

And just out of curiosity, is there anybody you believe should be excluded from being a Pastor? Or can anyone hold the office of a Pastor?

Going by the biblical examples we have in NT scripture, GOD can award any of the positions to women if He so chooses, but it is by faithfulness that they will receive anything from GOD.

There were a couple women who were Apostles in the NT.

 

[Strong in Him]

GOD still chooses men over women.

Not what the evidence suggests.
Dozens, if not hundreds, of women are being called by God, each year, to become Ministers in his church.

He able to do more through a man than He can through most women.

Evidence?
Are you really saying that God is somewhat restricted in what he can do if he only has women available?
Jesus didn't seem to think so when he chose Mary Magdalene to be the first witness to his resurrection. Where were all the men; those who "fight for what they want"? Oh yes, hiding, in fear, behind a locked door.

I do present the exception, that being Maria Woodworth Etter. GOD was able to do amazing miracles through her, but she does seem to be the exception nowadays. We don't see anyone like her out there.

There are, or have been, many such women.
Hilda of Witby, who founded a monastery
Catherine of Siena,
Julian of Norwich
Joyce Meyer
Kathryn Kulman
Anne Graham, who according to her father Billy, was the better preacher.
Then you've got women like Mother Teresa, who founded sisters of charity. Elizabeth Fry, the Quaker, who was instrumental in prison reform.
And so on.

God is able to do amazing things through anyone; male or female.
He is not at all restricted by the gender that he gave us.

 

[ARBITER01]

Not what the evidence suggests.

It is exactly what the biblical evidence affirms. I don't try to ignore it or rewrite it.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

leadership is about getting people to follow your will and your vision, willingly or by force if necessary. The military is about force, Christ is not.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Why are you being rude to me? All you have been doing in this thread so far is be a pest.

Put your degree to work and show us your expertise on this subject.

no one is being rude to you. you are the one being rude to everyone. you were the one who belittled the other posters qualifications. NOT ME, I simply responded to your post. That is all. You are not a victim, you are the problem, change your approach and your tactis and the problem goes away.

As far as using my degree. I have already posted multiple post about the Biblical bases for Women's ordination. you refused to address them. If you want to go and find them and respond to them feel free to do so. I will not do the work for you.

You have made it very clear that you will not change your views on this matter, you will not reconsider you views not matter what the evidence is, so what is the point of this conversation? What do you want out of this? you are just making yourself a nuisance. why?

I have noticed that the people you disagree with ALWAYS respond to your posts directly and in a straight forward manner. They put their cards on the table and you know exactly where they stand. You on the other hand are never straight, you never deal directly and you always act like you are a victim.

I have told you directly, I believe Christ work undoes the work of the curse and restores the woman to her rightful place that she had in the Garden of Eden. That is the promise made to Eve, "she would be saved through childbearing" well the Child, Christ, came, now she is to be restored to her rightful place in leadership Under Christ not under a human male. Not in spiritual matters.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

It is exactly what the biblical evidence affirms. I don't try to ignore it or rewrite it.

what evidence? no one tries to ignore it or rewrite it.

 

[Paidiske]

why bother to even dialogue with people?

I mostly engage in these discussions for the sake of people reading along, so that they can see that the kind of view you hold is not the only possible Christian view. And because I don't think it's a good thing for a forum like this to become an echo chamber for unchallenged misogyny and sexism.

The Bible talks about spiritually maturity. How can a degree increase spiritual growth?

That's a good question, and I'm glad you asked. I would say that my studies immersed me in the Biblical text far more than I had ever been before (particularly in learning the language of the NT); helped me to appreciate what I was reading (Paul's letters in particular); gave me a theological framework which was hopeful and a vision of the reign of God towards which I can be unreservedly committed. They exposed me to a range of Christian thinkers over the centuries and encouraged me to reflect on their insights. They also helped me become aware of some of my own weaknesses and flaws, and gave me some tools for growth. And gave me an ethical framework within which to hold myself accountable.

I'm not saying every person would have that experience, or even that I would recommend study at that level for everyone, but for me personally, it was a profoundly enriching, deepening, life-giving experience.

I mean, universities even give degrees away without the students having to complete the course.

I assure you I completed my course and did the work.

Sure, they may have some merit to them but not in the way you are proposing, that the higher ''educated'' person has superiority in their view regardless of the facts.

That's not what I'm suggesting. What I do see in this conversation is a lack of awareness of the breadth of scholarly work and dialogue. For example, you claiming that there is only one view held by the experts, when the experts are in fact fiercely contesting multiple views.

I have a serious question though. Are there any people who are excluded from being a Pastor in your belief system? Or can absolutely anybody be a Pastor?

No. My church turns away more applicants than it accepts, and this is right and proper. Being able to be a pastor rests on the call of God, the gifts to actually manage the role, the character to manage yourself in the role. Not everybody has these things. But it's not about biology.

 

[All Glory To God]

You are sounding as desperate as the women here with these examples. It's sad to see.

Going by the biblical examples we have in NT scripture, GOD can award any of the positions to women if He so chooses

Of course he can if he choices. I don't think anyone is disputing Gods right to call who he choices. The question is does he call women? If he doesn't desire to call them and the office of a Pastor is solely for men, they are sinning when they take that office.

There were a couple women who were Apostles in the NT.

As far as I am aware an Apostle is not a Pastor.

You say you were in the military right? Would you put a metal cooking pot on your head as a replacement for a bullet proof Kevlar helmet? You are doing the same things the Girls are, anything that sounds like it can be used as evidence, anything with a likeness, we will use it. Come on now.

 

[All Glory To God]

I have already posted multiple post about the Biblical bases for Women's ordination. you refused to address them.

Well I haven't seen these these and thought you were here to just be a pain in the neck. This is all the interaction I have reciceved from you.

If you have serious posts, direct me the number of the post and I will reply.

You have made it very clear that you will not change your views on this matter

True.

so what is the point of this conversation?

Exactly the same reason that @Paidiske has revealed in post #607: It is for the observers that are watching. For the people who have not made up their mind.

What do you want out of this?

To stop the churches that are running counter to traditional Christianity growing and teach traditional Protestant Christianity.

I have noticed that the people you disagree with ALWAYS respond to your posts directly and in a straight forward manner. They put their cards on the table and you know exactly where they stand. You on the other hand are never straight, you never deal directly and you always act like you are a victim.

Rubbish.

I always answer my opponents points.

I have told you directly, I believe Christ work undoes the work of the curse and restores the woman to her rightful place that she had in the Garden of Eden. That is the promise made to Eve, "she would be saved through childbearing" well the Child, Christ, came, now she is to be restored to her rightful place in leadership Under Christ not under a human male. Not in spiritual matters.

Paul wrote that ''she would be saved through childbearing'' and he also wrote ''Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.'' and ''I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man'' and this is in the context of the Church.

Peter calls them weaker vessels. Why is Peter calling them weaker if they have been ''restored to her rightful place in leadership'' according to you.

And the curse of eve was pain in childbearing. Has the pain in childbearing gone and the curse lifted? If not it is probably safe to safe women are still under the leadership of men.

 

[Strong in Him]

It is exactly what the biblical evidence affirms. I don't try to ignore it or rewrite it.

But you don't have an answer for the verses I posted about women, or the response I gave you in post #586.

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course he can if he choices. I don't think anyone is disputing Gods right to call who he choices. The question is does he call women?

So what do you suggest is the reason for all the female Pastors today? Women who have had their calls tested by the church, affirmed and accepted by men, who were trained by men, and who ARE serving God now, doing his work of preaching the Gospel, teaching, visiting the sick etc etc?

 

[All Glory To God]

I mostly engage in these discussions for the sake of people reading along

Same.

That's a good question, and I'm glad you asked. I would say that my studies immersed me in the Biblical text far more than I had ever been before (particularly in learning the language of the NT); helped me to appreciate what I was reading (Paul's letters in particular); gave me a theological framework which was hopeful and a vision of the reign of God towards which I can be unreservedly committed. They exposed me to a range of Christian thinkers over the centuries and encouraged me to reflect on their insights. They also helped me become aware of some of my own weaknesses and flaws, and gave me some tools for growth. And gave me an ethical framework within which to hold myself accountable.

That's not what I'm suggesting. What I do see in this conversation is a lack of awareness of the breadth of scholarly work and dialogue. For example, you claiming that there is only one view held by the experts, when the experts are in fact fiercely contesting multiple views.

Historically it is unanimous, 2022 it is diverse. But then again all kinds of insane views are coming about in general.

No. My church turns away more applicants than it accepts, and this is right and proper. Being able to be a pastor rests on the call of God, the gifts to actually manage the role, the character to manage yourself in the role. Not everybody has these things. But it's not about biology.

So polygamists,homosexuals, paedophiles,terrorists,Muslims,atheists, non-Trinitatrians......no one is excluded it ''rests on a call of God''? according to you and your church.

And how can you tell who is called and who is not? Just look at the above potential candidates I listed.

 

[Paidiske]

So polygamists,homosexuals, paedophiles,terrorists,Muslims,atheists, non-Trinitatrians......no one is excluded it ''rests on a call of God''? according to you and your church.

You will notice that I mentioned character alongside gift and call. For what it's worth, the interviews and screening I had before being accepted to prepare for ordination included:

- Police check and working with children check
- A number of interviews assessing vocation (or call from God)
- Full medical exam (including mental health)
- Psychological evaluation (focussing on my capacity for healthy relationships, but also looking at other aspects of personality, personal history, etc)
- Spirituality
- Intellectual capacity
- Leadership capacity

The vocational and relationship interviews had my husband present also.

Then, during the six years I spent preparing, I was constantly interviewed, observed, and reported on, in terms of everything from my prayer life, to my academic studies, to my progress in practical placements. I had feedback on everything from how I dressed, to how I preached, how I handled a pastoral conversation, how I interacted with a hugely diverse range of people in settings from the incredibly personal to a state funeral.

And within my ministry I bind myself on oath to conform to the doctrines, canons, and structures (including relevant codes of conduct) of the church. I am not free to be a "loose cannon" in what I teach or how I lead, or indeed how I conduct my private life. And I can be held accountable should I stray from the boundaries set for me.

It is not a matter of someone rocking up one day saying, "I have a call," and the church rubber-stamping that. That person, and that call, are scrutinised carefully over years, and any reason which might exclude that person is taken deeply seriously.

To give you one example, one matter which I know was weighed very seriously in my case, was that my husband (while a devout and committed Christian) belonged to a different denomination. Note; was not an atheist, or a Muslim, or a non-Trinitarian, or anything else on your list; but simply happened to choose to worship in a different community. But the concern that that might "undermine your ability to set a good example of Christian family life" was taken seriously enough that it was a real question mark over my ordination at one point. And it wasn't even some shortcoming of mine, but a question of how my household functioned!

And how can you tell who is called and who is not?

You know, this is not actually my area of expertise. I am not sure, to this day, what the examiners were looking for when they interviewed me, or what they might not have seen in other people who seemed to me excellent candidates who were turned away. But the feedback I had, consistently, at every step of the way, was that my call was clear and unambiguous.

 

[ARBITER01]

Of course he can if he choices. I don't think anyone is disputing Gods right to call who he choices. The question is does he call women?

That was my point you missed.

In NT scripture GOD called a couple women to the Apostleship position,.... and if He calls them to that high end position, He certainly can call them to any of the offices,... prophet, teacher, evangelist, even pastor.

My only objection in any of this was how GOD normally chose men more. That is spelled out in scripture also.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Well I haven't seen these these and thought you were here to just be a pain in the neck. This is all the interaction I have reciceved from you.

If you have serious posts, direct me the number of the post and I will reply.

that is your fault for the interaction. you make the effort. you can do it. try using the search feature and scrolling through my posts. they are there.

True.

Exactly the same reason that @Paidiske has revealed in post #607: It is for the observers that are watching. For the people who have not made up their mind.



To stop the churches that are running counter to traditional Christianity growing and teach traditional Protestant Christianity.

Wow what a major waste of time. I quess you are a person with a lot of time on your hands.. since this this is a place for discussion you probally should be banned since you have stated you are not here to talk about the subject.

Rubbish.

I always answer my opponents points.

no you don't

Paul wrote that ''she would be saved through childbearing'' and he also wrote

''Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.'' and ''I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man'' and this is in the context of the Church.

you ignored the genesis text.
If you had read my earlier posts you would know the answer to both text. but let me recap, slience is about the orderllness of the service, don't interrupt the service. the context is clear. Authority over men is in the context of temple prostitution and the church receiving a bad reputation

Peter calls them weaker vessels. Why is Peter calling them weaker if they have been ''restored to her rightful place in leadership'' according to you.

weaker is referring to phsyical make up not authority. you are implying that she is a lesser or less valuable member.

And the curse of eve was pain in childbearing. Has the pain in childbearing gone and the curse lifted? If not it is probably safe to safe women are still under the leadership of men.[/Quote][/Quote]

 

[Strong in Him]

My only objection in any of this was how GOD normally chose men more. That is spelled out in scripture also.

God chose Jews more too.
That doesn't mean that Gentiles can't be saved nor that we can't serve him.

 

[ARBITER01]

God chose Jews more too.
That doesn't mean that Gentiles can't be saved nor that we can't serve him.

Lol,.... still wanting a different outcome.

You should be more concerned about if you are actually one of those few chosen. Too many people nowadays, male of female, have built there ministry themselves instead of GOD.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

God chose Jews more too.
That doesn't mean that Gentiles can't be saved nor that we can't serve him.

you mean the OT

 

[Strong in Him]

Lol,.... still wanting a different outcome.

No, I'm stating a fact that gets glossed over.
In debates on this subject, it's not too long before someone says "Jesus chose 12 men. If he wanted women, he'd have had them", as if that settles the matter.
Well Jesus chose 12 Jews; if he'd wanted Gentile disciples he'd have had them. Point that out, and people go quiet or change the subject.

You should be more concerned about if you are actually one of those few chosen.

Chosen for what?
I've been born again and serving God for over 40 years.

Too many people nowadays, male of female, have built there ministry themselves instead of GOD.

That may be true for some - I'm not one of them.

 

[Strong in Him]

you mean the OT

Yes, probably.
Although salvation came from the Jews - Jesus was Jewish, and the early church were Jewish.