Female Pastors?

[ARBITER01]

I think I know what you're talking about, although I think leadership is also more than that.

But I just don't agree that what you describe here is a gendered trait.

Of course.

I did describe one woman having some of this trait, but overall it was more apparent through men while I was still in the military. GOD can use women in leadership positions, but as we see in the bible, He will normally use men more, and I think it is because of this natural trait that some will have.

 

[Paidiske]

While I disagree, I think one good thing about your position is that it is no reason to refuse to allow women who are gifted and called to ministry, to serve in that capacity.

 

[ARBITER01]

While I disagree, I think one good thing about your position is that it is no reason to refuse to allow women who are gifted and called to ministry, to serve in that capacity.

I want to be led by The Holy Spirit, so I have to pay attention to what He shows me. It is a communion/fellowship with Him that is important. We only know truth from what He teaches us.

I noticed how GOD had used women in the past in different things, some to great effect. One that I mentioned before, Maria Woodworth Etter was an Evangelist that GOD operated mightily in power through. I don't try to ignore such things when He opens them up to me.

Her writings are bathed in The Holy Spirit.

 

[Strong in Him]

Men do have a greater leadership capacity than women, and we can't just be blind to it.

Do they? Who says?

Can women fill in a leadership capacity? Yes,

Both men and women can, and should be allowed, to do whatever God calls them to do.

but GOD can use a man in that position to a much greater effect,

That sounds dangerously like, "God can't use a woman to lead".
Firstly, Deborah was judge over all Israel - God had no problem using her.
Secondly, God can work through anyone, and has - an 80 year old asylum seeker, a shepherd boy, a donkey, a disobedient prophet, an unmarried, possibly teenage, girl, a group of fishermen and tax collectors.
It's not the vessel that's important, it's God's call and power.

especially when we are talking about GOD working through us in His power.

Paul said that God's power is best seen in weakness.
God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called.

 

[ARBITER01]

That sounds dangerously like, "God can't use a woman to lead". Firstly, Deborah was judge over all Israel - God had no problem using her. Secondly, God can work through anyone, and has - an 80 year old asylum seeker, a shepherd boy, a donkey, a disobedient prophet, an unmarried, possibly teenage, girl, a group of fishermen and tax collectors. It's not the vessel that's important, it's God's call and power.

Oh my.

We don't ignore the biblical standards from GOD. In both the OT and the NT GOD chose particular men to fulfill His will. This is just how GOD did/does things.

For instance, GOD didn't replace Judas with a woman, He replaced him with another man. GOD had ample opportunity to chose a woman for that position once Judas hanged himself,..... but He didn't.

Does GOD chose women at times to fulfill positions? Why yes He does, but the biblical standard is that He will normally chose men more.

I know that goes against your worldly views of equality of outcomes, but it is how GOD does things, and we don't get to change His mind.

 

[Strong in Him]

Oh I upset the ideological one

You didn't upset me - you're just wrong.

We don't ignore the biblical standards from GOD. In both the OT and the NT GOD chose particular men to fulfill His will. This is just how GOD did/does things.

He also chose particular women to fulfil his will.
Miriam Mary, mother of Jesus Euodia
Deborah Elizabeth Syntyche
Huldah The Samaritan woman
Esther Mary Magdalene
Ruth Phoebe
Hannah Lydia
Naomi Priscilla
etc

For instance, GOD didn't replace Judas with a woman, He replaced him with another man. GOD had ample opportunity to chose a woman for that position once Judas hanged himself,..... but He didn't.

So?
God had ample opportunity to choose Gentiles to be his disciples - he didn't.
But no one is going to argue that Gentiles can't be leaders in the church.

Does GOD chose women at times to fulfill positions? Why yes He does, but the biblical standard is that He will normally chose men more.

In Bible times it was a more male centric world.
That doesn't mean that's how it is, or has to be, today. Times are different, culture is different - we don't wear robes and sandals, speak Koine Greek, walk or travel everywhere on donkeys. We aren't circumcised Jews who keep the law and are waiting for the Messiah.

I know that goes against your worldly views of equality of outcomes,

My "worldly view" of equality??
Oh, you mean my belief that our Creator God made men and women in his own image - that one?
Strange, I thought that's what the Bible says.

but it is how GOD does things,

Well he's clearly forgotten that that's how he "does things", because we have hundreds of female clergy, even Bishops, today.

and we don't get to change His mind.

I don't believe anyone here has the slightest intention of trying to change God's mind - even if that were possible.
Women don't just wake up with an idea that they fancy being ordained and then go to take over a vestry, you know. It takes several years of having their call tested by the church - by men.

Or are you saying that women who testify that God has called them to this ministry are lying? What are men doing then; collaborating in the lie? Or are they just not clever enough to be able to see what women are doing?

 

[concretecamper]

based on this answer, it is apparent you have no idea what the Holy Spirit is telling us about whether there should be women pastors.

that is the word of God. so you you clearly are not in touch with the Holy Spirit.

That would be applying that verse incorrectly

Seems like I'm not the only one who questions your use of scripture. Seems like the Holy Spirit is leading people in different directions, or maybe not.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

That would be applying that verse incorrectly.

In GOD's eyes He only see Jesus and His work in us, but down here in time, we have our differences. Men and women each have capacities that the other doesn't.

Men do have a greater leadership capacity than women, and we can't just be blind to it. Can women fill in a leadership capacity? Yes, but GOD can use a man in that position to a much greater effect, especialleey when we are talking about GOD working through us in His power.

men have greater leadership capacity then women, what kinds of answer it that? on what is that based? that logic is foolish. it is circular reasoning.

 

[ARBITER01]

You didn't upset me - you're just wrong.

You can quote war it all you want, the biblical examples for the OT and NT are there for every one to see.

GOD is not going to change now.

 

[ARBITER01]

men have greater leadership capacity then women, what kinds of answer it that? on what is that based? that logic is foolish. it is circular reasoning.

I already explained it in posts. GOD uses men more than women,..... why is that?

I submit that men have a greater leadership capacity than women do. It's just what our makeup is between the two genders.

 

[Strong in Him]

You can quote war it all you want, the biblical examples for the OT and NT are there for every one to see.

GOD is not going to change now.

The Biblical examples of women are there for all to see, as well.

God doesn't change; the way he works sometimes does.
He told Isaiah that he was doing a NEW thing and Jeremiah that he would make a NEW Covenant.

 

[ARBITER01]

The Biblical examples of women are there for all to see, as well.

God doesn't change; the way he works sometimes does.
He told Isaiah that he was doing a NEW thing and Jeremiah that he would make a NEW Covenant.

GOD still chooses men over women.

He able to do more through a man than He can through most women. I do present the exception, that being Maria Woodworth Etter. GOD was able to do amazing miracles through her, but she does seem to be the exception nowadays. We don't see anyone like her out there.

 

[All Glory To God]

No, I'm making a statement of fact, and establishing my background for this conversation.. . . I bring it up because you keep suggesting I don't actually know what I'm talking about.

What difference does it make? Just because you have a degree does not automatically means you do know what you are talking about. If you think your view is superior because you have a degree why bother to even dialogue with people? The Bible talks about spiritually maturity. How can a degree increase spiritual growth?

There's never been a time when further education was of little value. I mean, universities even give degrees away without the students having to complete the course. Example: There is a popular anti-Calvinist heretic who calls himself ''Dr'' but never actually finished his course and earnt his Phd, because the university just gave him the degree without his completion. Sorry, these Theology degrees are not as weighty as you are making them out to be. Sure, they may have some merit to them but not in the way you are proposing, that the higher ''educated'' person has superiority in their view regardless of the facts. That being the case, the theologians I quoted are more educated than you but you just dismissed them. No consistency.

I have a serious question though. Are there any people who are excluded from being a Pastor in your belief system? Or can absolutely anybody be a Pastor?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Nothing bizarre about it at all.

I did 20 years in the military, I seen a few men that had a leadership capacity where men would of followed them into death for, simply because they were inspired by them to do so.

It's a natural talent that some have.

I seen some aspects of leadership in one woman over those 20 years, and this wasn't because she was an officer wearing a uniform, she had some of that natural talent, but it paled in comparison to those men who demonstrated it. They had it in spades.

see there is the problem you are using military leadership as the basis of your decision making, not spiritual leadership. you are not using Christ, you are using government. Christ's way is different then man way. "You know how the gentiles lord power over you,but not so shall it be among you, he who would be greatest among you, must be servant of all and he who would be chief among you must be slave of all" there is your qualifications for leadership right there, from the mouth of the Lord Jesus himself.

no male for female requirement at all.

Should be fairly obvious, but it needs to be said

When you do not have the well being of others in mind, don't expect them to listen to you or follow you, expect them to resit you an fight you.

 

[ARBITER01]

see there is the problem you are using military leadership as the basis of your decision making, not spiritual leadership. you are not using Christ, you are using government. Christ's way is different then man way. "You know how the gentiles lord power over you,but not so shall it be among you, he who would be greatest among you, must be servant of all and he who would be chief among you must be slave of all" there is your qualifications for leadership right there, from the mouth of the Lord Jesus himself.

no male for female requirement at all.

Sorry, I'm using human nature, whether it be in the church or outside of it, the evidence is the same.

Men have an inherit greater capacity for leadership then women do. That's not being sexist just acknowledging what is evident in life.

People can desire a lot of things, but it is GOD who rewards faithfulness.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

What difference does it make? Just because you have a degree does not automatically means you do know what you are talking about. If you think your view is superior because you have a degree why bother to even dialogue with people? The Bible talks about spiritually maturity. How can a degree increase spiritual growth?

There's never been a time when further education was of little value. I mean, universities even give degrees away without the students having to complete the course. Example: There is a popular anti-Calvinist heretic who calls himself ''Dr'' but never actually finished his course and earnt his Phd, because the university just gave him the degree without his completion. Sorry, these Theology degrees are not as weighty as you are making them out to be. Sure, they may have some merit to them butt not in the way you are proposing, that the higher ''educated'' person has superiority in their view regardless of the facts. That being the case, the theologians I quoted are more educated than you but you just dismissed them. No consistency.

I have a serious question though. Are there any people who are excluded from being a Pastor in your belief system? Or can absolutely anybody be a Pastor?

so you think being ignorant on the subject matter is a virture. Your arrogance in thinking you know better then someone who has put in the time to study things out, show you are not trust worthy.

Listen to me folks, I don't know what I am talking about, I don't know where I am going & I don't have your well being in mind, but follow me and let me have say over your life.

 

[All Glory To God]

How do you know what the original Greek said unless you learn it, or trust the translators who tell you?

How do you know what books should be in the Bible/cannon?

He does - you just don't agree with what he is doing.

Is there anybody who is excluded in your view? Or can absolutely anybody become a pastor?

And if you want Biblical examples; what about Deborah, who led Israel for 40 years? Or Esther who stood up to a pagan king and saved the nation from destruction? Or Zipporah, who acted quickly and prevented Moses from being killed? Or Hannah, who stood up to her husband, and to Eli who thought she was drunk?

I don't see any of these examples giving women a licence to Pastor a church. And let's not forget that the Jews and people before the incarnation had not received the full wisdom and revelation of God (2 Corinthians 3:14) that was to be received that is in Christ. So when the Jews in the old testament are doing things like Polygamy, Unlicensed divorce, murdering prophets, Pagan idolatry, child sacrifice and many other things that we know are sinful....are you really going to follow their lead by looking to thier people for guidance or role models? We know the truth in the new testament that rectifies the Jews errors. The new testament commands us to have male leadership only in the church.

From what I've seen, women have to fight . . .

Women fight nothing. Men have given up power. They have been giving up power for several generations now. Women have earnt nothing from fighting, it has been handed to them on a plate by weak men. And yes, this demonstrates that not all men are good leaders but hopefully the tide is turning and we shall see a rise in support for male dominated societies. These feminised nations don't seem to be functioning very well.

 

[ARBITER01]

What difference does it make? Just because you have a degree does not automatically means you do know what you are talking about. If you think your view is superior because you have a degree why bother to even dialogue with people? The Bible talks about spiritually maturity. How can a degree increase spiritual growth?

I talked about this a bit.

GOD rewards faithfulness, he doesn't rewards offices. Just because a person did a lot academically to fit the position they wanted doesn't automatically mean it was awarded by GOD. In fact, there is no example of such a person in our bibles. People might have had an education prior to being born again, like Paul, but the current requirements in churches nowadays are devoid of GOD's power.

Look at Stephen and Phillip. They started out in the ministry of helps and over time were rewarded with offices in the power of GOD due to their faithfulness.

 

[All Glory To God]

so you think being ignorant on the subject matter is a virture. Your arrogance in thinking you know better then someone who has put in the time to study things out, show you are not trust worthy.

Listen to me folks, I don't know what I am talking about, I don't know where I am going & I don't have your well being in mind, but follow me and let me have say over your life.

Why are you being rude to me? All you have been doing in this thread so far is be a pest.

Put your degree to work and show us your expertise on this subject.

 

[All Glory To God]

I talked about this a bit.

GOD rewards faithfulness, he doesn't rewards offices. . .

But we disagree on who the office of a Pastor is designed for and you said earlier you did not want to debate. Which is fine.

I am adamantly against woman holding the office of Pastor.

And just out of curiosity, is there anybody you believe should be excluded from being a Pastor? Or can anyone hold the office of a Pastor?