Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I'm surprised we haven't seen more violent attacks on police already.

I'm not, really. The fact remains that peaceful demonstrations for police reform are, by far and away, the status quo. There are many of them, large and small, happening all across the country on any given day. Most people will never hear about them, though, because they're not covered by their media outlet of choice.

However... if we see tactics like those being used in Portland deployed on a mass scale, you can absolutely expect to see more radicalization happening, at a much faster pace. And that will inevitably lead to some violent counter-measures.

Nothing about this is new. This is how it has played out through the entire history of civil unrest. That's why our government has a manual on the subject. I'd like to learn from that history, and not let things go too far.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I think that is mostly due to the fact there are still other avenues to take. The press is picking up the story, the mayor of Portland, and the Governor of Oregon is telling them to stop it.

When people feel all civil avenues have been exhausted then we will start seeing more violence. Right now, not enough people feel we are there yet.

I'm not merely talking about Portland - I mean across the country. There are cities where the police and other city agencies ran roughshod over the population for years, doing worse than the British ever did to the colonists. I'm surprised that we haven't seen at least a handful of organized assassination squads pop up, targeting police and other civic leaders who've engaged in and profited off of this kind of abuse.

This is why I find it confusing when said individuals talk about the "leftist boogeymen" wanting to erode their rights. They can't seem to see that they are supporting the erosion of rights themselves.

These days, I find very little of right wing ideology and rhetoric to be grounded in anything close to reality. The whole movement is fueled on blind dogma that only falters when forced to face something like COVID that's immediate and undeniable.

 

[whatbogsends]

Miranda rights are for interrogations, not arrests. Don't believe what you see in TV shows and movies as they get that stuff completely wrong.

Miranda rights are generally supposed to be read at the time of arrest.

 

[pitabread]

Miranda rights are generally supposed to be read at the time of arrest.

No, that's movie fiction. Miranda rights need to be read only if an officer is conducting an interrogation of a suspect in custody.

 

[Paulos23]

I'm not merely talking about Portland - I mean across the country. There are cities where the police and other city agencies ran roughshod over the population for years, doing worse than the British ever did to the colonists. I'm surprised that we haven't seen at least a handful of organized assassination squads pop up, targeting police and other civic leaders who've engaged in and profited off of this kind of abuse.

Yes, and most people know that attacking the police outright is going to bring more oppression.

I agree with you, the amount of people frustrated enough with the police to attack them is rising. But as long at the local or state government keeps lines of communication open and do some changes, the chance of open attacks is low.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Miranda rights are for interrogations, not arrests. Don't believe what you see in TV shows and movies as they get that stuff completely wrong.

They're for both arrests and interrogations. From Wikipedia:

Circumstances triggering the Miranda requisites
The circumstances triggering the Miranda safeguards, i.e. Miranda warnings, are "custody" and "interrogation". Custody means formal arrest or the deprivation of freedom to an extent associated with formal arrest. Interrogation means explicit questioning or actions that are reasonably likely to elicit an incriminating response.

Miranda warning - Wikipedia
Edit:Ooops I was wrong about that.

The Constitution does not require that a defendant be advised of the Miranda rights as part of the arrest procedure

 

[pitabread]

They're for both arrests and interrogations. From Wikipedia: Miranda warning - Wikipedia

To clarify this context, both is inclusive (as opposed to either/or). IOW, if someone was arrested and going to be interrogated, they would need to be read their rights.

An arrest by itself doesn't trigger the need for the warning.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

To clarify this context, both is inclusive (as opposed to either/or). IOW, if someone was arrested and going to be interrogated, they would need to be read their rights.

An arrest by itself doesn't trigger the need for the warning.

Yes. And the correct term is indeed "Miranda Warning". It's not a right. You already have those rights, per the constitution.

I advise everyone reading along, who lives in the US, to watch this video.

 

[Sparagmos]

Antifa and BLM want the cops to stop and the feds out.

Yes, we do. And the people who live downtown also want them out.

 

[cow451]

NM....Not worth the trouble....

 

[LostMarbels]

It's interesting watching people who claim to believe in the Constitution cheer on as civil rights are being violated in broad daylight.

What do you want people to do? Sit around and calmly talk to ANTIFA?

I believe in stand your ground, and in such cases, I believe the rights of the victim always superseded that of the aggressor. I also believe it is the federal governments job to protect the people, as much as I believe it is the peoples job to govern.

 

[Speedwell]

What do you want people to do? Sit around and calmly talk to ANTIFA?

I believe in stand your ground, and in such cases, I believe the rights of the victim always superseded that of the aggressor. I also believe it is the federal governments job to protect the people, as much as I believe it is the peoples job to govern.

Right now neither the city nor state governments with jurisdiction want the federal secret police involved.

 

[LostMarbels]

Right now neither the city nor state governments with jurisdiction want the federal secret police involved.

Do you expect them to be allowed to do as they wish? What do you think insurrection laws are about? Granted, he is doing it in a round about manner but I have said Trump will get federal LEO's out on those streets. I promise you, this won't be allowed to continue.

 

[Paulos23]

Do you expect them to be allowed to do as they wish? What do you think insurrection laws are about? Granted, he is doing it in a round about manner but I have said Trump will get federal LEO's out on those streets. I promise you, this won't be allowed to continue.

Are you fine with unmarked federal agents going around and taking people off the street just because they think that person was doing vandalism?

Because right now, to me, that is very close to them pulling people off the street just because they are protesting. And that will cause way more violence in the long term than it prevents.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Where are the states' rights people when you need 'em?

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

What do you want people to do? Sit around and calmly talk to ANTIFA?

I'm not sure if you've ever taken a glance at the history of civil unrest, but bringing people together at the negotiating table is, in fact, a very common practice of de-escalation, and has been for millenia.

You'd have a hard time doing that with "antifa" though, since there is no such organization. The real people you'd want to bring to the table would be the individuals most responsible for organizing the demonstrations in Portland from the outset. They're not hard to find. Usually, they're the head of some local chapter of BLM, or some other police-reform organization.

If, that is, you actually care about de-escalating.

I also believe it is the federal governments job to protect the people

And in the case of Portland, they suck at it. The tactics they are using are known failures, according to the official field guide on the subject. They are escalating the situation, radicalizing people, and worsening the outcome for everyone.

So either they are stupid and incompetent enough to think these tactics will work - Trump absolutely is, but he's not the whole picture - or, de-escalation is not actually the goal at all.

 

[LostMarbels]

Are you fine with unmarked federal agents going around and taking people off the street just because they think that person was doing vandalism?

No, but unfortunately I am the only person on this forum that talks about the asinine amount power that has been enacted in the Executive branch. The power wasnt set up for Trump, but he is darn sure not scared to use it.

Because right now, to me, that is very close to them pulling people off the street just because they are protesting. And that will cause way more violence in the long term than it prevents.

I really don't care about it in that light. That is justifying violent crime because you do not want the criminals to get violent. These aren't protest. And I don't care about that point of view either.

 

[LostMarbels]

I'm not sure if you've ever taken a glance at the history of civil unrest, but bringing people together at the negotiating table is, in fact, a very common practice of de-escalation, and has been for millenia.

I understand where you're going. This crowd doesn't want compromise they want capitulation.

If, that is, you actually care about de-escalating.

No… Honestly, no, I don't. I want them stopped dead in their tracks without accomplishing a single one of their demands. Full stop. Complete denial, and banishment to the chronicles of history.

They have lost that respect with me. And honestly it is the wrong attitude for me to have. Im human, and they have pushed too far.

You'd have a hard time doing that with "antifa" though, since there is no such organization.

Antifa has been around since like the 1930's. And they most certainty are organized.

Trump absolutely is, but he's not the whole picture - or, de-escalation is not actually the goal at all.

I think the goal is to make stop. How that is achieved is unknown at this point.

 

[Paulos23]

No, but unfortunately I am the only person on this forum that talks about the asinine amount power that has been enacted in the Executive branch. The power wasnt set up for Trump, but he is darn sure not scared to use it.

Fair enough, but are you sure that power will not turn on you?

I am more afraid that what is going on in Portland is a test run, and it is going to get worse as they try to do this in other cities. And I don't think it will stop at 'protecting' federal property.

I really don't care about it in that light. That is justifying violent crime because you do not want the criminals to get violent. These aren't protest. And I don't care about that point of view either.

People are getting violent mostly because they don't feel like they are being heard. You start talking to them and the violence will go down.

I understand you don't like violence, but there is a reason for it in these protests. Justly or not, they think there are things the government is doing that warrant this. And cracking down with more violence and police is not going to calm things down. Nor is grabbing people off the streets in unmarked vans going to do it either.

This is not a comic book where if you get the bad guys violence will stop. The way the government is government is going at it will generate more violence.

I see this leading to open revolt within a generation if we don't address the base issues. Within a year if the DHS does this in other cities.

 

[LostMarbels]

Fair enough, but are you sure that power will not turn on you?

I am more afraid that what is going on in Portland is a test run, and it is going to get worse as they try to do this in other cities. And I don't think it will stop at 'protecting' federal property.

I see it more as a contest between egos. Who can push who the furthest... Democratic socialist on one side, Trump on the other. I don't see a positive outcome TBH. Do you see an out?

People are getting violent mostly because they don't feel like they are being heard. You start talking to them and the violence will go down.

They are not going to stop until they get their way. Trump isn't going to stop until he gets his way... not pretty.

I understand you don't like violence, but there is a reason for it in these protests. Justly or not, they think there are things the government is doing that warrant this.

But that can be flipped on its head. And the rioters aren't exactly winning hearts, and minds let me tell ya.

Nor is grabbing people off the streets in unmarked vans going to do it either.

Its the swat team from ICE. I cant think of the name right now. They regularly do that to remain undercover until they are actual making the arrest. Many of them are not speaking in public, so they cannot be identified. NOT saying it is all kosher.