Father is "True God" in Scripture, though Son is God also

[younglite]

you're a mormon please correct me if I'm wrong?

Nope. I am a Trinitarian. Raised Baptist. Bible college and seminary trained. Baptist minister for 30+ years. I believed the modern belief of the Trinity for decades until I came across 2 Cor. 4:4 one day in my devotion time. It really bothered me that Jesus was called the "image of God." I've read it thousands of times, but this time it gnawed at me. We are the image of God, right? Why is Jesus called this? He IS God. (And He is.) This led me on a years-long study of Scripture, and subsequent study of the early church fathers - the disciples of the Apostles and their writings. I discovered a whole new meaning to the Trinity, but it wasn't so new in the first 3 centuries. This early "True God" orthodoxy was later traded for a later "All are equal" orthodoxy. It was the earlier orthodoxy that made the confusing Scriptures suddenly make sense. Of course, it's rare to find early orthodox Trinitarians, which is why you probably never heard of it.

 

[younglite]

Again I did provide you with many scripture that state without a doubt that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God in three persons that always existed in eternity.

I provided verses, too. Did you read the first post on this thread? How do you explain Jesus called the Father the only God? Paul said it, too. This doesn't mean Jesus isn't God, it just means He isn't the Unbegotten, True, Immutable God. He is God because He was begotten of the Father.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Nope. I am a Trinitarian. Raised Baptist. Bible college and seminary trained. Baptist minister for 30+ years. I believed the modern belief of the Trinity for decades until I came across 2 Cor. 4:4 one day in my devotion time. It really bothered me that Jesus was called the "image of God." I've read it thousands of times, but this time it gnawed at me. We are the image of God, right? Why is Jesus called this? He IS God. (And He is.) This led me on a years-long study of Scripture, and subsequent study of the early church fathers - the disciples of the Apostles and their writings. I discovered a whole new meaning to the Trinity, but it wasn't so new in the first 3 centuries. This early "True God" orthodoxy was later traded for a later "All are equal" orthodoxy. It was the earlier orthodoxy that made the confusing Scriptures suddenly make sense. Of course, it's rare to find early orthodox Trinitarians, which is why you probably never heard of it.

I believe you misread the verse and the GOSPEL of Christ is not a reference to Christ but rather HIS word in which the infidels are blinded to..


2 Corinthians 4:4 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds, that is, of the infidels, that the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, which is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

What you did was jump to a false conclusion because the "infidels" are what's made in the image of God not Christ. The fact of the matter is all through out the bible we "infidels" are always referred to as being made in the image of God. What you need to do is take out what's between the commas to make sense of the sentence e.g . In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the infidels which is the image of God. I hope that helps you knowing you can't judge all scripture by one verse as I pointed out above.


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl ofthe air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Ask yourself who is the "our" that is mentioned in this verse?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I provided verses, too. Did you read the first post on this thread? How do you explain Jesus called the Father the only God? Paul said it, too. This doesn't mean Jesus isn't God, it just means He isn't the Unbegotten, True, Immutable God. He is God because He was begotten of the Father.

Yes Christ was born through Mary and was begotten through that human process by the Holy Spirit. So unless you can show me through scripture where Christ was created by God in another way you have no point.

 

[younglite]

You're going to have to stop trying to prove the Trinity to me - I already believe it. The "Our" in Genesis is the Father speaking to His Son and Spirit.

Regarding "image," you're going to have a hard time with Colossians 1:15. Not only does it call Jesus "God's image," but it also says He is the first-born of all creation. There are those who try to use Scriptural gymnastics to explain this, but I believe Jesus is born as the perfect image of an invisible Most High God.

 

[younglite]

Yes Christ was born through Mary and was begotten through that human process by the Holy Spirit. So unless you can show me through scripture where Christ was created by God in another way you have no point.

Do you believe in a pre-existent Logos/Word/Son before Mary? Just curious so I'll know how to respond.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

You're going to have to stop trying to prove the Trinity to me - I already believe it. The "Our" in Genesis is the Father speaking to His Son and Spirit.

Regarding "image," you're going to have a hard time with Colossians 1:15. Not only doesn't it called Jesus "God's image," but it also says He is the first-born of all creation. There are those who try to use Scriptural gymnastics to explain this, but I believe Jesus is the perfect image of an invisible Most High God.

Yes I see you like to move the goal posts but you left out the following verses that explain your error....


Col 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.
16 For by him were all things created which are in heaven, and which are in earth, things visible and invisible: whether they be Thrones, or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

So again you have to show me where the Father created the Son and/or Holy Spirit.


Micah 5:21599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
2 And thou Bethlehem Ephrathah art little to be among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me, that shall be the ruler in Israel: whose goings forth have been from the beginning and from everlasting.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Do you believe in a pre-existent Logos/Word/Son before Mary? Just curious so I'll know how to respond.

Yes I do and that fact is found in John 1

 

[Hoghead1]

The Trinity, BornAgain, is strongly implied in Scripture, but that's it. It is never really worked out. That came later through extra-biblical sources, specifically Hellenic metaphysics. You have to remember that both the early Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians used Scripture. So there is an ambiguity in Scripture. Also early Christians were often called ditheists, not tritheists. The reason what that the Holy Spirit was left way off in the wings. One of the early fathers, Gregory of Nazinzus remarked that there was a great confusion about the Spirit that some called it God, others energy, and that there were still others who didn't say anything, "our of reverence for Scripture, which makes no clear statement." So again, the Trinity is implied in Scripture, but not clearly spelled out. AS to the Spirit, it finally found its way into the Nicene Creed circa 500 AD. Of interest is the fact the Creed never says the Spirit is Deity, or "one essence" with the Father or the very God of very God.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The Trinity, BornAgain, is strongly implied in Scripture, but that's it. It is never really worked out. That came later through extra-biblical sources, specifically Hellenic metaphysics. You have to remember that both the early Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians used Scripture. So there is an ambiguity in Scripture. Also early Christians were often called ditheists, not tritheists. The reason what that the Holy Spirit was left way off in the wings. One of the early fathers, Gregory of Nazinzus remarked that there was a great confusion about the Spirit that some called it God, others energy, and that there were still others who didn't say anything, "our of reverence for Scripture, which makes no clear statement." So again, the Trinity is implied in Scripture, but not clearly spelled out. AS to the Spirit, it finally found its way into the Nicene Creed circa 500 AD. Of interest is the fact the Creed never says the Spirit is Deity, or "one essence" with the Father or the very God of very God.

Sorry you think that the scripture isn't sufficient for you and you choose not to believe God's word but that's your problem not mine.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Do you believe in a pre-existent Logos/Word/Son before Mary? Just curious so I'll know how to respond.

Good night brother I'm turning in for the night. Old people need our beauty rest ;-)

 

[sonofedward]

by tertullian

 

[younglite]

Yes I see you like to move the goal posts...

Hmmm...we were talking about the image of God in 1 Cor 4:4, of which you stated was referencing infidels. So I stay on topic and show you another verse also calling Jesus the image of God. This is hardly moving goal posts, bud. In the debate world, it's called counterpoint.

Let's see if I can explain "my errors..."

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.

I believe what it says. Jesus is born/birthed of God before every other creature. As God's Son, He is the visible image of the Invisible God, the Father.

16 For by him were all things created which are in heaven, and which are in earth, things visible and invisible: whether they be Thrones, or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him.

After Jesus was born of God, the Father made everything through Him. Consistent with John 1:3.

17 And he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Yep, Jesus was born before all things, as stated above - the first-born. And afterwards, all things were made.

But this isn't my first rodeo, BAC1. I know better than to build a doctrine on one verse or passage. Let's see what else is out there...

Romans 8:29 - For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Jesus is once again called first-born, in this case He is called the firstborn among other brothers. Consistent with Hebrews 2:10-12

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Let's see. The Father begets a Son. The quote comes from Psalm 2, of which the early church fathers write speaks of Christ being born of the Father before all time. Since it was before time, it is known as the "eternally begotten" Son.

Rev 3:14 - And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

In this verse Jesus calls Himself the beginning (firstborn) of the creation of God. Consistent with John 1:1. He is indeed the Beginning, and will also be the End.

And I could give you a host of quotes from the early church fathers who taught how Christ was within the Father for eternity past, but later (in eternity) begotten as His Reason [Word], then all else was created from there. Again, consistent with Scripture. Let me know if you care to see any of those quotes. I started this thread with "True God" quotes in Scripture from Jesus and Paul. On top of this, Clement (Philippians 4:3), Ignatius and Polycarp - the direct disciples of Paul, Peter and John - taught that the Father was True God . See the OP.

This isn't some whimsical theory. It was taught for the first three centuries up to the Nicean Creed (curious if you believe the creed as it is stated). It was only later that "your" version of the Trinity was taught. I often wonder why the earliest teachings are mostly ignored today.

 

[younglite]

Good night brother I'm turning in for the night. Old people need our beauty rest ;-)

Ha! Good night.

 

[Hoghead1]

Wait a second, BornAgain, I didn't say I didn't believe the Bible. I said the Trinity is only implied in the Bible. That is a historic fact. The Trinity was largely worked out in extra-biblical terms. For example, "essence" or "substance" is not a biblical concept. That is from Hellenic philosophy. I am simply telling you the facts of the matter. So I definitely do not appreciate your rather insulting remarks. That's a no-no here.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Wait a second, BornAgain, I didn't say I didn't believe the Bible. I said the Trinity is only implied in the Bible. That is a historic fact. The Trinity was largely worked out in extra-biblical terms. For example, "essence" or "substance" is not a biblical concept. That is from Hellenic philosophy. I am simply telling you the facts of the matter. So I definitely do not appreciate your rather insulting remarks. That's a no-no here.

Only according to you is is in any way "implied". As for me I see the triune God without a doubt.


Isaiah 44:61599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and without me is there no God.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Hmmm...we were talking about the image of God in 1 Cor 4:4, of which you stated was referencing infidels. So I stay on topic and show you another verse also calling Jesus the image of God. This is hardly moving goal posts, bud. In the debate world, it's called counterpoint.

Let's see if I can explain "my errors..."

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.

I believe what it says. Jesus is born/birthed of God before every other creature. As God's Son, He is the visible image of the Invisible God, the Father.

16 For by him were all things created which are in heaven, and which are in earth, things visible and invisible: whether they be Thrones, or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him.

After Jesus was born of God, the Father made everything through Him. Consistent with John 1:3.

17 And he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Yep, Jesus was born before all things, as stated above - the first-born. And afterwards, all things were made.

But this isn't my first rodeo, BAC1. I know better than to build a doctrine on one verse or passage. Let's see what else is out there...

Romans 8:29 - For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Jesus is once again called first-born, in this case He is called the firstborn among other brothers. Consistent with Hebrews 2:10-12

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Let's see. The Father begets a Son. The quote comes from Psalm 2, of which the early church fathers write speaks of Christ being born of the Father before all time. Since it was before time, it is known as the "eternally begotten" Son.

Rev 3:14 - And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

In this verse Jesus calls Himself the beginning (firstborn) of the creation of God. Consistent with John 1:1. He is indeed the Beginning, and will also be the End.

And I could give you a host of quotes from the early church fathers who taught how Christ was within the Father for eternity past, but later (in eternity) begotten as His Reason [Word], then all else was created from there. Again, consistent with Scripture. Let me know if you care to see any of those quotes. I started this thread with "True God" quotes in Scripture from Jesus and Paul. On top of this, Clement (Philippians 4:3), Ignatius and Polycarp - the direct disciples of Paul, Peter and John - taught that the Father was True God . See the OP.

This isn't some whimsical theory. It was taught for the first three centuries up to the Nicean Creed (curious if you believe the creed as it is stated). It was only later that "your" version of the Trinity was taught. I often wonder why the earliest teachings are mostly ignored today.

So then there is only one God and yes the bible, Gods word states that fact your claim is God recreated Himself.


Isaiah 44:61599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and without me is there no God.

Revelation 22:131599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

 

[JLB777]

I Tim 1:17 and Jude 25 – The Father is the only God.

When you write your opinion, and "tag" it with a scripture reference, rather than writing out the scripture and referring to what the scripture actually says, it will make you a more believable writer.

Example:

I Tim 1:17 and Jude 25 – The Father is the only God.

To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen. Jude 25

The Father is not mentioned.

You "assume" that "God our Savior" is referring to God the Father.

and again -

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17

God the Father is not mentioned in this verse either.


Jesus is our God and Savior. Jesus is our King.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


and again


11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14




Jude says this in verse 14 -

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints...


This is a reference to YHWH, who is the Lord Jesus Christ, coming with the saints on the Day of the Lord.


Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled,
And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord— Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light. Zechariah 14:1-7


It was Jesus who taught His disciples on the mount of Olives, from Zechariah, as he answered their question:

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3


In Zechariah 12:10 we see clearly that YHWH, who was speaking through the mouth of Zechariah, spoke these words...

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

He says the same thing in Matthew 24:30

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Jesus is Lord. YHWH the Lord God, who created all things.



JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

For the first several centuries, the New Testament writers and early writers declared the unveiling of the Son from His Father, the one true God. They also declared that the Son was God, too, for what is begotten of God, is God. But in later centuries, there was a overreaction to heresy, so the Son began to be elevated to be co-equal with God, the Father.

I am curious as to why we haven't gone back to the teachings before this overreaction? Why are Christians, theologians, professors, etc. afraid to just let Scripture and the early writings speak for themselves? Is it because there is something that doesn't feel right about making Jesus "less?"

You don't get much closer to the original source than the disciples of the apostles. These writings have been copied in Latin, Syriac, Greek and other languages. They clearly distinguish themselves in their writings from the heretical arguments of the gnostics, and many are referenced/endorsed by the later church fathers. They are reliable and should be considered heavily when determining what the writers of the NT were trying to say.

What did the disciples of the apostles believe?

Clement of Rome (disciple of Paul and Peter, died in 99AD). Origen says he is the Clement of Phil 4:3 [Commentary, John 1:29]. His writing is the earliest outside of the NT writings (80-140 AD). Note that he prays to God the Father directly, through the Son. He tells God that He is God alone and is the Highest, and does His work through his Son, Jesus Christ.

1Clem 59:3
[Grant unto us, Lord,] that we may set our hope on Thy Name which is the primal source of all creation, and open the eyes of our hearts, that we may know Thee, who alone abidest Highest in the lofty... and hast chosen out from all men those that love Thee through Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son...

verse 4 (next verse)
Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son...


Ignatius (disciple of Peter and John, died 108 AD)

I long after the Lord, the Son of the true God and Father, even Jesus Christ.
(Ignatius to the Romans, chapter VI)

But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son.
(Ignatius to the Ephesians, chapter VII)

He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens...
(Ignatius to the Romans, chapter VI)

Polycarp (disciple of John, died 155 AD)
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest (I Tim 2:5 makes a similar statement) himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...
(Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians, 12:2)

Before we even get out of the gate to later disciples, the direct disciples of the Apostles teach that the Father is true God. They also state that Jesus is God, too, but only the Father is true God and/or Most High God. This theme is carried on in the writings for the next few hundred years right up to the formation of the Nicean Creed. If you truly consider their teachings, then it helps when you are reading Scripture...

John 3:33-35 and John 5:43-44: Jesus refers to the Father as the “only God.”

John 17:3 – Only true God is Whom Jesus is talking to. (see also John 5:44)

1 Thess 1:9-10 – True God and His Son (also see John 3:33, 5:44 and John 17:3)

1 John 5:20 – God is the true God, depicted in the Son – very clear Who is truly God and Who is Son

I Tim 1:17 and Jude 25 – The Father is the only God.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6, Eph4:6, Gal 3:20, 1 Tim 2:5, 1 John 5:20 – One God, the Father

Col 3:10 – Jesus is the image, created by God (see 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15, 1 John 5:20)

Rev 3:14 – Jesus is the beginning of creation

Of course, this goes against what we are taught about the Trinity today, so we outright disregard the evidence of their writings. Sad. We should believe what we read, not read what we believe.

It is so refreshing to read your posts on this subject. Few on the internet stand on the plainest of scripture on this subject, nor the earliest christians, only the theologies that developed over time. Most in the churches themselves would agree with you. However, this is the internet. Beware of shark infested waters!

 

[2 know him]

The Bible teaches that the Son is equal to the Father. See Jn. 1:1, etc.

I would argue that Jesus is equal in character, but not in size, and that Jesus clearly is not the Father. While there is the statement ``before Abraham was I am`` that can be meant only to state that Jesus is the reason for creation and that he is the beginning of creation (the purpose of creation) not Abraham.

I think the real problem is that people have exalted ideology and its importance, over how we live and thus we are more concerned with what we think about Christ, rather than whether we walk in the teachings of Christ and thus people think that how they embrace Christ intellectually is more important than how we embrace Christ spiritually, in the way we live, and this, to me, is the cause of all the real problems we should be focused on, not on what people`s beliefs are intellectually so much, but only intellectually to the degree that it affects how they live.