Jesusfreak5000,
Would "God's predestinating of certain men to be in Him" not be considered an event? Would "God's calling of certain men" not be an event?
However that is not what the whole context is saying. There are no individuals being predestinated to be beleivers. One must of necessity be a beleiver, thus become one of the elect, the chosen, and then those actions will be performed with the exclusion of calling. He calls all men to repentance not certain men.
God's foreordination cannot be overturned; it is an eternal decree.
this is true, but it is the actions that cannot be overturned. God decreed, forordained that THOSE IN CHRIST WILL BE ACTED UPON. But there is nothing there about individuals or an event being forordained.
In Eph 1:3 it is even more clearly stated. Vs 3 says those IN Him were chosen. It does not say that they were chosen to be IN HIm. One is already IN Him which makes that person of the chosen. They are members of His Body. The ONLY way to enter into Christ is by faith. There is no other avenue in Scripture that states it differently. That is why it is called justification by faith.
Verse 5 again uses the word predestined but what is being predestined is not believers but the fact that they as believers would be adopted as sons. But again, a believer can disinherit that sonship. ONe is not being saved as an unbeliever. When we lose faith, we have also lost the justification, the privilege to be IN Christ. Confession reconciles us back to God.
Huh? Tell me, those who "obey and are faithful" are descriptions of what? Believers.
but it is not the believers who are being predestinated, It is the action upon those who are believers already.
A poor analogy to say the least, but if you had an eternal car wash and you entered it, and the predestination is that being IN the carwash you will be washed in a ever ongoing, never ending action upon any car in that track. But you must remain in order to be continually washed, If you leave, the predestination of the wash goes on for others that are still on the track. That continual washing was forordained at the startup of that wash. But nothing about the car being forordained to go to the terminal end. Same for beleivers. We enter into Christ freely, we can leave freely and leave behind the synergistic work of God working upon us, to conform us, to make us holy, to make us blameless.
God does not compel man to remain faithful. See Adam for your first example. If Christ holds you to himself and you are not free to leave, then God already failed with Adam.
1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jo 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
How synergistic can one get with these texts. There is a lot of action on the part of man in these verses. It is speaking to believers. So if a believer does not keep His commandments he has become a liar and the Truth is not in Him. If he remains in Him he will be perfected. There you have those predestined actions being performed, IF a believer desires to obey, to keep his word, his committment, his promise upon entering by faith, Justification.
Therefore, anyone who is "In Christ" is obedient. That is how you know you are a true believer; you keep His word. If you do not keep His word, you are not a believer, and never were.
Correct, but that is also how we know we are no longer in Christ when we become disobedient, Especially when we willingly disobey and then do not confess those sins to be reconciled back to God. It never says you never were. Just look around, friend. How many believers can you see being disobedient, some for quite a long time. Some holding hate to another brother for example. If we hate our brother, we CANNOT LOVE GOD. Your neighbor is the second most important person in the trinitarian communal understanding of the Great Commandment. Love God, Love your fellow man, (especially your enemies) as much as you love yourself. You remove any one of those legs, you are no longer in Christ.
1. One who is in Christ obeys His word.
2. One who is not in Christ does not obey His word.
Those would be accurate descriptions as per 1 John 2. Now, if these are what categorize each of the distinct individuals (those in Christ vs. those not in Christ), then how can they deviate from their course of action? Surely, the inverse is true:
But that is not even close to what John is even saying. He is speaking OF believers only. It would be absolutely absurd to even make these statments if a believer actually could not hate his brother. If he could not murder his brother, or commit all the other sins. Greed, avarice, lust, envy. I would like to see this perfect believer. Especially in America.
1. One who is in Christ cannot (continually, 1 Jn 5:18) disobey His word.
2. One who is not in Christ cannot obey His word (Rom. 3:12).
Now that word "continually" changes the whole complexion. All it proves is that the believer is a liar. Repentance of those sins, and a repentance, a discontinuation of them is necessary to be reconciled back to God.
I would not be so quick to say that those in Christ cannot keep His commandments, but they are minus the faith. This is why faith and works in the NT go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other.
Given that all of this is true, then necessarily, one who is a believer simply cannot and will not "abandon" Christ. Their character as a believer dictates this.
Right, and it contradicts most of NT scripture. Which is why it cannot be true. Luke point blank states a beleiver will be consigned with the unbelievers. Unless you think unbelievers are being saved, I would say that this person is eternally separated from Christ.
Luke 12:46,47, The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master's will and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
But this speaks directly opposed to your view. These are people who were believers but are leaving and making it quite manifest that they are. You cannot leave anything unless you were a part of it. These are not unbelievers leaving the fold of unbelievers. They are those hidden tares that the parable of the sower also mentions. We are to leave them alone. Ripping them out, might cause others to leave. We should not contribute to anothers condemnation. So leave them be, they also might repent before it is to late. This is the same as the 10 Virgins who did not come prepared. There is nothing in scripture anywhere that upholds the view that a believer is cast in stone as per salvation of his soul on a one-time mental ascent of faith. It is a life journey. It is a life of being faithful.
If one claims to be in Christ, but then shows signs that He is not, then He never was:
LIke if I was a baseball player and wore a uniform, but now retired I don't wear the uniform therefore it means I never was a baseball player. How illogical is that? Because you fell from the tree, and now are lying on the ground, does not mean you were never in the tree.
Not true. Man has all the free will in the world, that is, he has free will as far as his volition can take him. The question is, can man's volition bring him to place true saving faith in the work of Christ? Paul seems to say no:
Where does Paul say that? Paul even says all men have been given sufficient knowledge of God, to know God and be held accountable for that knowledge. Rom 1:18-24. No man will be able to give an excuse that he did not have the necessary grace, means to be saved. Every man will give an account in the measure of Grace he was given at the judgement.
You have some being held by God, all others are never saved, redeemed in order to believe. They missed the predestination to be believers. Who is being judged for what? Surely not man. You have actually removed the Image of God in man, removed his rational soul which makes him that moral agent.
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Now is "NONE" really "NONE", or is it just "sort of none". Mostly none, except a few? According to you, Paul is writing needlessly here because it isn't really true.
Did you ever check to see where those quotes are being taken from. The subject generally of all them are describing those that have turned away from God, fools who have said: Obviously, if you turn away from God, you cannot possibly be seeking Him. Read Ps 14, then read Ps 15. It is just the opposite. David is speaking of those righteous souls to sought after God. It is actually called the Song of the Righteous.
The reason Paul employs the verse in Romans is to make a strong hyperbole to the Jews. The Judiaziers who Paul is having a hypothetical discourse here, thought that they were the privileged people because of blood lines to Abraham. Paul quickly dispels that but they continue to press Paul regarding the hated gentiles. Paul then uses this Ps to say that all men are as bad as you think the gentiles are, meaning even you (Isrealites).
God calls all men to repentance. man has always sought after God, he is by nature, because of the Divine Image of God in man. But man in his fallen state more often perverted that seeking. But many men found God and God recognized them in Scripture. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Rahab and many more. All were accounted righteous in God's sight.
And your are right, it is not true when taken in the context of the source and the purpose Paul is using them, then other scripture showing the calling of God. The work of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, to convict men of their sin and need for Christ. God loves mankind, in fact, He loved this world, so much that He gave His only Son to redeem this world, so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES. shall not perish. Nothing about only some believing or even being predestinated.
You mean "your church" (small "c").
No, actually the Church founded by Christ. The one He is preserving, the Gospel that He gave to that starting Church to disseminate over the world. It is still alive today and still proclaiming that same Gospel, unchanged. Truly an authentic witness of the work of the Holy Spirit. Can you show it is not?
Tell me, did not your own St. Augustine teach predestination?
Unfortunately for you it was never recognized as a true teaching of the Church. It was introduced 400 years after the Gospel was given. Even the RC does not recognize him in that regard. But he is still often called the Father of the Roman Catholic Church. Much of RC doctrine is also based on other Augustine teachings.
But the Church has given you Arius, Origen, Montanus, Apollinarius, Nestorius, Pelagius, many more individuals and several other false teachings. These were all believers, most were even bishops but all departed the Truth. Some repented, recanted but nevertheless for a time they too were not IN Christ.
So don't try to wave history around,
Maybe you aught to study history with much more care than you exhibit here. It matters not what man does, teaches or practices. It is what the Church believes, practices and corrects. Christ is Head of that Church, It is HIS Body, no less. Do you really believe Christ is a false teacher? Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit can actually preserve the Gospel once given? That ONE faith, of ONE Lord, ONE baptism, not many and asundry versions of same. Show that the Church from the Apostles to the present has ever changed that Gospel that was given in the beginning. I challenge you to try.
saying that because your church may have been mislead for 1700 years makes it impossible for me to be right.
'Well, so far you have not even begun to show it has been mislead. If you do succeed, we can all forget debating any theology because it would mean Christ cannot keep a promise. If He failed on one, what assurances do you have that He might fail on any other promises? The Holy Spirit is real. How can you account that the Gospel has not been changed, yet it is ironic that protestant claim they are led by the same Holy Spirit and arrive at a thousand different versions of a Book that does not contain the whole Gospel.
Holy Tradition, the first 35 to 40 years when nothing was written cannot be separated from the portion that was written. It is why you cannot make sense out of most of it. In most cases you reject the foundation from which the written text is derived from.
That is the weakest argument I have heard from you, and I hope that you cease from using it because it makes you look quite misinformed.
It is the ONLY valid argument that exists. Without the ONCE given Gospel, preseved by the Holy Spirit in His Body, we have nothing. On the other hand I am glad to be accounted with all the saints, the martyrs of the past who actually died for that Truth. The Truth was much more valuable than life itself.
Can you give any credible evidence to your assertion?
Ahhhh.... history. If you wish to talk about history, as if whoever has the oldest form of Christianity is the true church, then you can throw me out! lol.
Not just any form, the Original Gospel as it was given.
How can you give any evidence of being correct when it is based on your opinion, your own intellect. What is absurd is to say that the Holy Spirit is the author of all this confusion, ever growing plualism and diversity. Yet it says quite clearly that Christ and the Gospel He gave is Truth. He is Truth. He entrusted very specific authority to His Church. The individuals entrusted, specifically the bishops are going to be required to give an accounting of that trust and authority. False teaching and division, schism is serious sin and scripture is quite condemnatory regarding it.
For we are justified not by our works but the cross of Christ and Gods gift of salvation to those whom He has called and chosen.
