Fast & Furious

[Rion]

Fast and Furious: ATF Official Accused of Perjury, Receiving Taxpayer Salary, Pension Funds on Top of Bank Salary - Katie Pavlich

 

[Assuredcw]

Thanks, SharonL and Rion!

 

[Rion]

Hopefully Holder will be taken down next.

 

[Assuredcw]

Hopefully Holder will be taken down next.

That's contingent on whether they were acting on his orders at the time.

I'll put my money on their going their merry way without ASKING him. Where is the email where they said, "Here is a complete description of the program we have had to track straw gun purchases back to the cartels. OK to continue?" And then wait for an answer.

If they didn't do that, he shouldn't be penalized. He should be penalizing them for insubordination. I would like for him to be free to do just that.

This whole situation has me very upset, because I have seen this before and I know what it looks like. It's insubordination, and it just might ALSO be corruption.

 

[RETS]

Assured, do you remember how Obama invoked Executive Privilege in this matter?

 

[Assuredcw]

At Holder's request, of course. Do you not remember that it was at Holder's request?

Oh, and I just thought of a way to confirm that Holder had nothing to do with this. Ask the Mexican government (which supposedly was cooperating with the Fast & Furious gunwalking) who they have been dealing with, and if they say AG Holder, doublecheck telephone records or do a forensic investigation on Holder's computer. In other words, you need probable cause to look any further. But I'll bet the Inspector General asked them already, and it wasn't Holder they were dealing with. Someone is in a LOT of trouble, and I don't think it is Holder, or we would have heard about it, and I think the US Attorney of DC would have had a harder time refusing to at least get those forensics going.

 

[Assuredcw]

The gun smuggling network is breaking up. They caught someone in another border state -- Texas.

Wikileaks emails: El Paso restaurant manager part of arms-trafficking network - El Paso Times

Guess what?

Quoting from the link:

The Stratfor email, sent by Scott Stewart to various people with Stratfor email addresses, also said that a Mexican diplomat indicated he was unsure that the Fort Bliss meeting was secure. "He fear that cartels are everywhere and that they have penetrated both U.S. and Mexican law enforcement."

 

[RETS]

Except in the case of Nixon, Executive Privilege has NEVER been invoked to shield a government official from Congressional investigation when the President has not been involved; and it has NEVER BEFORE been invoked when the President was not in question.

In other words, there is more than enough action on the part of Holder and the President to stir up suspicion and concern; furthermore, it is more than enough to warrant investigation.


Finally- One arrest is going to break up drug RINGS?!

 

[TerranceL]

You're not supposed to have to prove a negative -- "innocent unless proven guilty" and you wouldn't have to have a legal background to know that (I don't, of course). Furthermore, perhaps the police would find something to arrest YOU for, too, if only they were allowed to go through your house until they found something illegal (maybe not - but got your attention). Point is, you can't just DO that. There is such a thing as "probable cause," and Issa just doesn't seem to want to recognize what that whole concept is about. "Oh, let's just go through Holder's files until we find something." I don't know what country Issa thinks he is living in, but this is America, and we don't do that to anyone.

I thought you knew about this story? Your response doesn't show that.

This isn't a case of "let us look till we find something" it's a case of "Here are the specific documents we want".

Not at all what you are trying to claim it is. Why is that?

 

[RETS]

I thought you knew about this story? Your response doesn't show that.

This isn't a case of "let us look till we find something" it's a case of "Here are the specific documents we want".

Not at all what you are trying to claim it is. Why is that?

Bingo, and one of the things about Assured's stance that I've never been able to properly understand.

 

[Assuredcw]

I thought you knew about this story? Your response doesn't show that.

This isn't a case of "let us look till we find something" it's a case of "Here are the specific documents we want".

Not at all what you are trying to claim it is. Why is that?

You still don't have the right to issue subpoenas in order to find something. (The committee admits it.) Even if Mexico had said they had been dealing with Holder (and there is no evidence they have said that), the Inspector General would have been the entity to pursue other avenues (dig), as I said. Law enforcement is the job of the Justice Dept not Congress. There is a separation in place. John Nichols of The Nation is more knowledgable about these matters than anyone else on this thread, and that is what he is saying, and no Constitutional law experts (he is a journalist) are contradicting him at this time.

 

[Assuredcw]

Except in the case of Nixon, Executive Privilege has NEVER been invoked to shield a government official from Congressional investigation when the President has not been involved; and it has NEVER BEFORE been invoked when the President was not in question.

In other words, there is more than enough action on the part of Holder and the President to stir up suspicion and concern; furthermore, it is more than enough to warrant investigation.


Finally- One arrest is going to break up drug RINGS?!

On the contrary -- he is the President and this is the complete opposite of "throwing him under the bus," as one poster put it. It shows that the President supports Holder's handling of this matter, and doesn't think Darrell Issa needs to see anything. I don't blame them for circling the wagons. The situation is unprecedented for the simple reason that Darrell Issa is crazy. The John Nichols excerpt from The Nation doesn't come out and say he is crazy, but it does explain the "unprecedented" part more clearly than I have done.

No, one arrest doesn't break up gun rings, but this does show what is being done by the Prosecutor. Of course he isn't done -- that is why these are still open files. He shouldn't have to show anyone his open files, unless they are already in the loop because they work with Holder (such as his Deputy AG, probably).

 

[TerranceL]

You still don't have the right to issue subpoenas in order to find something.

On what planet? Is the problem that you don't know what a subpoena is?

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpoena_duces_tecum"]subpoena duces tecum

orders a person or organization to bring physical evidence before the ordering authority or face punishment. This is often used for requests to mail copies of documents to requesting party or directly to court.

[/URL]

Even if Mexico had said they had been dealing with Holder (and there is no evidence they have said that),

Of course there's no evidence of that, that's contrary to everything that's ever been claimed about the obama administration program.

 

[Assuredcw]

On what planet? Is the problem that you don't know what a subpoena is?


Of course there's no evidence of that, that's contrary to everything that's ever been claimed about the obama administration program.

Stop taking what I am saying out of context. You want criminal charges to result? Then the Justice Dept has to be issuing the subpoenas. Give me a break!

 

[RETS]

Stop taking what I am saying out of context. You want criminal charges to result? Then the Justice Dept has to be issuing the subpoenas. Give me a break!

So who holds the Justice Department accountable, Assured?

 

[Assuredcw]

So who holds the Justice Department accountable, Assured?

The Justice Dept is the ultimate accountability for the entire country -- the local police have their Internal Affairs, and the Justice Dept has its own internal affairs. What Issa does NOT have, is the ability to control and manipulate the Internal Affairs (Inspector General) of the Justice Dept, or of the Inspector General of the Homeland Security Dept (that's the cross-check). On the contrary, the Committee just recently spoke with the Juctice Dept Inspector General about his report that's coming out soon, and no one has come out in criticism of his findings. He found 5 people were out of line, all in the ATF Dept (but we have heard nothing about that US Attorney in Arizona who was supposedly running the program -- that would be interesting to hear). Yes, they want to wait for Homeland's Inspector General, but the Inspector General is supposed to turn over evidence to Holder, but if he finds out anything that implicates Holder, the US Attorney of DC would probably need to get involved. That would be big news, and maybe Holder would be even placed on leave. Hasn't happened yet.

But how much do you want to bet, that Holder already knows that the Mexican government ISN'T going to say that he was involved with that gun walking thing? He has nothing to cover up, and he himself needs to see that IG report so he can decide who needs to be prosecuted.

 

[TerranceL]

Stop taking what I am saying out of context. You want criminal charges to result? Then the Justice Dept has to be issuing the subpoenas. Give me a break!

Nobody is taking anything you've said out of context.

And no, as you've been told numerous times, it's part of the congressional powers to investigate the executive branch. If they decide there's a need for criminal charges they then appoint a special prosecutor.

This is civic 101 stuff.

 

[TerranceL]

LOL

He's got nothing to hide... nothing to coverup which is why he's stalled so much he's been voted in contempt of congress, and his boss has had to do something that hasn't been done since Nixon in the way executive privilege was used...

But he's got nothing to hide.

 

[Assuredcw]

Nobody is taking anything you've said out of context.

And no, as you've been told numerous times, it's part of the congressional powers to investigate the executive branch. If they decide there's a need for criminal charges they then appoint a special prosecutor.

This is civic 101 stuff.

You can insist all you want that Congress has subpoena power, but that power is not absolute, because they cannot see AG Holder's open files. They simply are not allowed to see them, ever, and there would be no point to seeing them anyway, because they do not have the ability to presecute. No, prosecution doesn't flow through them, with them getting to look at it first. They don't get to see it at all, and John Nichols explained why. Please read the link, and note that no Constitutional law experts disagree with this. Congress isn't allowed to see open Justice Dept files. Even if evidence is found against Holder, the Justice Dept will prosecute and Congress still won't see those files. They won't ever be allowed to see them, regardless of what Eric Holder did or didn't do. Don't believe me? Wait for the judge to rule in the civil suit, and then maybe you'll believe me.

 

[RETS]

Even if evidence is found against Holder, the Justice Dept will prosecute...

Except they won't, remember? They said "We will not prosecute our boss."

I believe you told us about that. So, I guess even in the case of Holder being dirty, he'll still get away with it.


Awesome to know that I could potentially be a criminal in charge of the Justice System.

Kinda like the nuts running the nut house.