Fast & Furious

[Assuredcw]

RETS:

I once worked at a company where I was told to do something against company policy. I personally did not realize it was against policy, so I naturally did it. When it all came out, I pointed to the message I had received. The boss didn't have such a message on his computer- So I was the one lying, apparently.

I got fired by the same guy who told me to do the thing he was firing me for.

I am sorry for what happened to you. I am just now seeing this.

Anyway, I stepped away from the computer, and was compelled to come back to it, because I am not so sure that you'd have to be TOLD that colluding with organized crime is questionable behavior. The 5 supervisors at the ATF would have been well advised to make sure that if THEY went down, that they take whoever told them to do this down with them. My guess is that it was that US Attorney in Arizona. If his marching orders came from Holder himself, I don't believe for one minute that he would get rid of those emails. His posterior is on the line, and if you think he wouldn't have known that it would be, I've got some swampland to sell you.

 

[Rion]

Zambada-Niebla claims that under a “divide and conquer” strategy, the U.S. helped finance and arm the Sinaloa Cartel through Operation Fast and Furious in exchange for information that allowed the DEA, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and other federal agencies to take down rival drug cartels. The Sinaloa Cartel was allegedly permitted to traffic massive amounts of drugs across the U.S. border from 2004 to 2009 — during both Fast and Furious and Bush-era gunrunning operations — as long as the intel kept coming.

Sinaloa Cartel Operative Jesus Vincente Zambada Niebla Makes Explosive Allegation About Operation ‘Fast and Furious’ | TheBlaze.com

Another claim. Dunno how valid it is, but here's the court documents:
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/userfiles/70/Pleadings.Sinaloa.Zambada.pdf

 

[RETS]

RETS, the LA Times was shown the report, prior to its release. It's in one of the articles.

Here, I've found it - it was in the second link I provided, on the previous page of this thread...<snip>

Ah. Sorry that I missed that, Assured. Regardless, I still find about 90% of all journalism in this country to be questionable; so for me personally, I'd want to see a copy of it myself.

I am sorry for what heppened to you. I am just now seeing this.

Appreciate that.

 

[MachZer0]

Holder's going to lose this one. It's just a matter now of how much of a coverup will finally be exposed

"House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa plans to sue Attorney General Eric Holder on Monday for refusing to provide documents related to the "Fast and Furious" gun-smuggling operation."

 

[RETS]

Holder's going to lose this one. It's just a matter now of how much of a coverup will finally be exposed

"House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa plans to sue Attorney General Eric Holder on Monday for refusing to provide documents related to the "Fast and Furious" gun-smuggling operation."

He may lose, he may not. In case you hadn't noticed, this entire administration is very good at doing the two-step.

 

[drjean]

I voted yes.
This administration has more than this one time overstepped it's bounds regarding power: they refuse to abide by the Constitution regarding separation of powers.
Mr Holder is not God Almighty, he is required to answer to Congress.

 

[SolomonVII]

I voted yes.
This administration has more than this one time overstepped it's bounds regarding power: they refuse to abide by the Constitution regarding separation of powers.
Mr Holder is not God Almighty, he is required to answer to Congress.

We can all hope that the system works, and he is compelled to divulge everything that he knows.

It is a lack of courage too, that the person in charge does not take responsibility, but distances him as far as he can from the actions that have taken place on his watch.

 

[RETS]

It is a lack of courage too, that the person in charge does not take responsibility, but distances him as far as he can from the actions that have taken place on his watch.

Very true, Solomon.

 

[Assuredcw]

I voted yes.
This administration has more than this one time overstepped it's bounds regarding power: they refuse to abide by the Constitution regarding separation of powers.
Mr Holder is not God Almighty, he is required to answer to Congress.

There is a separation of powers between law enforcement and Congress. Holder has invoked this precedent due to a currently open investigation on Fast & Furious. Congress might have to wait until the documents are de-classified. Holder may not have any choice about that, if he is to prevail in any criminal charges resulting from his investigation (Congress cannot impose criminal charges).

 

[RETS]

Round and round the mulberry bush...

 

[Assuredcw]

Round and round the mulberry bush...

OK, you tell me how we are going to get anyone in jail, if we undermine the Federal prosecution by leaking the information before trial?

Holder is the Prosecutor. I say leave his files alone, or replace him if you can PROVE he did something wrong. Releasing the contents of those files to Congress, or to anyone, shouldn't even be up for discussion. This is about obtaining those prosecutions.

What do you propose DOING with those people, once Issa finds out who they are by reading Holder's files? Holder is the Prosecutor - if you want them prosecuted you need to leave the files alone. Even if you give them to someone else to handle (prosecute), you have to leave the files themselves alone. You cannot show them to anyone.

 

[RETS]

It's called a special prosecutor, Assured. That's one of the reasons the government was set up the way it was. EVERYONE is accountable. NO ONE is above the law. PERIOD.

 

[Assuredcw]

It's called a special prosecutor, Assured. That's one of the reasons the government was set up the way it was. EVERYONE is accountable. NO ONE is above the law. PERIOD.

What I am saying, is that regardless of what you do or don't do to Holder, no one should see those files. They are files for the Prosecution only. Congress is not involved in prosecutions.

I would bet that no judge is going to order Holder to show Darrell Issa those files. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Vylo]

What I am saying, is that regardless of what you do or don't do to Holder, no one should see those files. They are files for the Prosecution only. Congress is not involved in prosecutions.

I would bet that no judge is going to order Holder to show Darrell Issa those files. Ain't gonna happen.

Congress actually can be involved in some if I remember correctly, as part of checks and balances. They should be held accountable if anything shown is leaked however, and I can understand someone resisting giving up files that could get agents killed.

 

[Assuredcw]

Congress actually can be involved in some if I remember correctly, as part of checks and balances. They should be held accountable if anything shown is leaked however, and I can understand someone resisting giving up files that could get agents killed.

What?!

OK, ok, let's back up a minute. Eric Holder is in charge of the whole shooting match. He isn't just "someone" - he is THE BIG KAHUNA. It isn't just "anyone" who can do the job better than the US Attorney General - few people would even be qualified, and no one would know the relevant facts (they would have to catch themselves up at best, thus reinventing the wheel, giving criminals time to cover their tracks). Let's not make it too easy for just "anyone" to topple to Big Kahuna just because they don't like him, or just because he is enforcing the Voting Rights Act. That's the "tyranny" that was referenced in the Reagan era Justice Dept memo, referenced in the OP.

Edited: Replacing the US Attorney General might be harder than you'd think. Constitutional law experts who are also seasoned members of law enforcement, do not grow on trees. Certainly no members of the House would be qualified.

 

[RETS]

Holder was appointed AG- He is an appointed prosecutor. There can, and there will be, other prosecutors.


And yes, Vylo, in certain situations, you are correct. This is clearly (to most reasoned people) one of those cases.

 

[Assuredcw]

No one disputes that a NEW AG can be appointed, which is why I included my edited comment in the previous post.

There would be a cost associated with replacing the AG, which is not a minor one, because it would potentially be at the expense of catching the people who cooperated with organized crime without permission (and possibly even for compensation = corruption). It is why I referred to "reinventing the wheel." There is a cost with starting over, and it is to create a (temporary) leadership vacuum during which criminals could potentially continue to work for the government, or threaten the people who still do, who have spoken to the Prosecutor about this.

I say this because, there are those of us who do not like AG Holder, and are not considering what might be fair to him. But I am considering that as well, and I do not think he deserves to be treated like a criminal, for keeping confidential files confidential. On the contrary, they would need to remain confidential even if he were no longer involved. Under no circumstances should any members of Congress be allowed to see things they aren't supposed to see, and furthermore, they shouldn't be allowed to compel it under any circumstances. Replace AG Holder or not, but leave those files alone. I don't like this at all.

 

[MachZer0]

No one disputes that a NEW AG can be appointed, which is why I included my edited comment in the previous post.

There would be a cost associated with replacing the AG, which is not a minor one, because it would potentially be at the expense of catching the people who cooperated with organized crime without permission (and possibly even for compensation = corruption). It is why I referred to "reinventing the wheel." There is a cost with starting over, and it is to allow criminals to potentially continue to work for the government, or to threaten the people who still do, who have spoken to the Prosecutor about this.

I say this because, there are those of us who do not like AG Holder, and are not considering what might be fair to him. But I am considering that as well, and I do not think he deserves to be treated like a criminal, for keeping confidential files confidential. On the contrary, they would need to remain confidential even if he were no longer involved. Under no circumstances should any members of Congress be allowed to see things they aren't supposed to see, and furthermore, they shouldn't be allowed to compel it under any circumstances. Replace AG Holder or not, but leave those files alone. I don't like this at all.

Yessir, we certainly wouldn't want to find out that this goes all the way to the top, to Mr Obama

 

[TerranceL]

Imagine if Nixon's DOJ said "We are investigating it and nobody else can see this information because......".

What a horrible precedent.

 

[Rion]

People like to compare Obama to Bush, but honestly he's more like Carter and Nixon's love child.