Fast & Furious

[Leere]

It doesn't require belief in a conspiracy to believe that a group would find itself innocent. That's why there's a popular thing called an independent investigation.

So apparently it's a bad thing to think those are good things.

Alright, bring me one solid piece of real evidence that shows the Justice Department applies the law selectively based on race, and you MAY have something. Till then, stop mistaking one man's word for fact

 

[Assuredcw]

Nah, I was just referencing them.

That needs to be a whole new thread, please.

But I have to say, that it was ONE decision out of a whole slew of decisions, and it was not necessarily made by Eric Holder (although he did sign off on it, probably). He made any number of decisions all by himself as a Federal judge, and no one took issue with any of them. That's an important track record.

But yeah, if you want to discuss Black Panthers, that is probably another thread.

Thank you.

 

[Markusanthem]

Holder is using racism in the Justice Department. The gun-walking scheme was a political scandal and failed attempt to go after the 2nd amendment. The scheme killed a US border agent and many Mexican citizens.

Holder is a dirty official and the entire administration is full of 'em.

 

[RETS]

Just to point this out:

Assured, you made this a poll. It would appear that the "yeas" outweigh the "nays" more than two to one.

 

[Abatis]

Fast and Furious as it is now known was conceived in 2009, but during Reno's tenure, an incident similar to that which brought F&F to the fore occurred in the Las Vegas area. It was covered locally, and sparsely. It was not picked up by any national news media, and it went away very quickly.

I have never heard of any comparable program (in which guns "walked") run by the Reno era DoJ. I have read all the Congressional reports released to date on Fast and Furoius and most have a timeline and discussion of previous strawbuying interdiction operations by DoJ and none from the Clinton/Reno period are included (which isn't surprising, the Reno DoJ really rolled back investigations/prosecutions for stawbuying/gunrunning).

Fast and Furious was run under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner which began in 2006 under GW Bush. There were claims that the same gunwalking tactics used in Fast and Furious were used under a Project Gunrunner operation called Wide Receiver which ran while Bush was in office. While under Wide Receiver approximately 240 guns did get out from under surveillance the operational details of the program deny any claims that "Bush did it too" . . .

The most significant differences were that the guns were implanted with transmitters to track them, the Mexican government was fully aware of the program as were ATF agents working in Mexico and Mexican law enforcement was an operational partner charged with tracking the guns once they crossed the border. Once it was realized that Mexican police lost the guns the program was shut down.

Wide Receiver is the only program predating Fast and Furious discussed as allowing guns to "walk". There have been little peeps and squeaks that other Holder era ATF offices were allowing gunwalking in smaller operations (Operation Castaway out of Tampa and an unnamed operation in Indiana that walked guns to a domestic criminal organization, then there is the fiasco of the hand grenade guy, Jean Baptise Kingery). We should also throw in the mix the evidence that Holder's DEA laundered money for the Cartels through US banks. As I said before, this administration is a criminal enterprise.

I need to bump my posting, I can't post links until I have 50 posts . . . very frustrating trying to discuss this without linking to off-site information. A Google search will result in some useful links.

CBS News and the LA Times have been the most active "mainstream" media sources for info although the "right-wing" blogs in the forefront (Sipsy Street Irregulars and David Codrea) have been proven correct again and again.

 

[Abatis]

Something appears to be happening, and at a pretty high level, and I don't like it...

Well, look at that, we agree on something!

 

[Abatis]

I just think it's a sketchy subpoena and that Darryl Issa should be ashamed of himself for suspecting Eric Holder of double-dealing before he would ever suspect Janet Reno. . . . I think that's despicable, because it was her baby. Quiz her on what safeguards she created to protect against corruption, with such a potentially dangerous mission.

An important part of the subpoena is asking who was involved in the composition and approved the content of the Feb 4, 2011 DoJ letter to the Oversight Committee which contained nothing but lies intended to deceive Congress and cover-up the scandal. Months later, when supporting the lies just could not be sustained, the DoJ retracted the letter but has yet to answer the questions truthfully which the Feb 4th letter was in response to.

DoJ was asked questions, they lied, took back the lies but still have not answered to original questions! Now they refuse to tell who wrote and approved of the lies! Do you really think that such an important 'official DoJ response' letter was left to underlings to write?

And without a shred of supporting evidence, the contention that the Reno DoJ not only engaged in similar actions but initiated them and should be the 'real' focus of the Oversight Committee, is just imaginary and diversionary and should be abandoned by you.

 

[RETS]

I have never heard of any comparable program (in which guns "walked") run by the Reno era DoJ. I have read all the Congressional reports released to date on Fast and Furoius and most have a timeline and discussion of previous strawbuying interdiction operations by DoJ and none from the Clinton/Reno period are included (which isn't surprising, the Reno DoJ really rolled back investigations/prosecutions for stawbuying/gunrunning).

As I said, the news on this incident was extremely localized, and if I hadn't known people in Vegas, I wouldn't have known about it either. I seem to recall the story taking place about the same time as Waco, but that could be wrong. I'd link to it, but I've not been able to find a single shred of evidence this ever happened- In spite of the fact that I've got a tattered and worn clipping talking about it.

Fast and Furious was run under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner which began in 2006 under GW Bush. There were claims that the same gunwalking tactics used in Fast and Furious were used under a Project Gunrunner operation called Wide Receiver which ran while Bush was in office. While under Wide Receiver approximately 240 guns did get out from under surveillance the operational details of the program deny any claims that "Bush did it too" . . .

The most significant differences were that the guns were implanted with transmitters to track them, the Mexican government was fully aware of the program as were ATF agents working in Mexico and Mexican law enforcement was an operational partner charged with tracking the guns once they crossed the border. Once it was realized that Mexican police lost the guns the program was shut down.

Wide Receiver is the only program predating Fast and Furious discussed as allowing guns to "walk".

Not to mention the fact that Wide Receiver was almost micromanaged because of the details of the operation. You don't let criminals steal weapons from you without knowing how many dead skin cells have fallen on each one.

There have been little peeps and squeaks that other Holder era ATF offices were allowing gunwalking in smaller operations (Operation Castaway out of Tampa and an unnamed operation in Indiana that walked guns to a domestic criminal organization, then there is the fiasco of the hand grenade guy, Jean Baptise Kingery). We should also throw in the mix the evidence that Holder's DEA laundered money for the Cartels through US banks.

I guarantee that you'll called to post links on this, but I also remember something about this.

As I said before, this administration is a criminal enterprise.

No arguments here.

I need to bump my posting, I can't post links until I have 50 posts . . . very frustrating trying to discuss this without linking to off-site information. A Google search will result in some useful links.

CBS News and the LA Times have been the most active "mainstream" media sources for info although the "right-wing" blogs in the forefront (Sipsy Street Irregulars and David Codrea) have been proven correct again and again.

It's a pain, but you might consider using the "spelling" method until you are able to actually link to anything. For instance:

www(dot)reverbnation(dot)com(slash)rets

 

[Assuredcw]

An important part of the subpoena is asking who was involved in the composition and approved the content of the Feb 4, 2011 DoJ letter to the Oversight Committee which contained nothing but lies intended to deceive Congress and cover-up the scandal. Months later, when supporting the lies just could not be sustained, the DoJ retracted the letter but has yet to answer the questions truthfully which the Feb 4th letter was in response to.

DoJ was asked questions, they lied, took back the lies but still have not answered to original questions! Now they refuse to tell who wrote and approved of the lies! Do you really think that such an important 'official DoJ response' letter was left to underlings to write?

And without a shred of supporting evidence, the contention that the Reno DoJ not only engaged in similar actions but initiated them and should be the 'real' focus of the Oversight Committee, is just imaginary and diversionary and should be abandoned by you.

It's clear to me that he has NOTHING to cover up because he has had NO involvement. The ATF employees didn't even discuss what they were doing with ATF supervision, so what makes you think they were interacting directly with the Attorney General way over in the Justice Department?!

I believe that Holder is trying to keep the details of what he might be investigating under his hat. I really do wish Issa would leave him alone. If Holder doesn't want to reveal the truth to Issa, it might be because so far, Issa appears to have made everything he HAS found out PUBLIC.

All Holder is guilty of doing is resisting the subpoena, but read the OP - there is precedent dating back to Reagan that says the AG can withhold information if it involves an active investigation. Holder just busted a bunch of people running a gun-smuggling ring in New Mexico, and he probably isn't done, because there are several other border states. Read the part about either the Police chief's wife or the Mayor's wife stuffing wads of cash out of sight when the Feds arrived at her house.

 

[Assuredcw]

Think about it - Issa insists on knowing "what Holder knew, and when he knew it." But THAT is precisely what Holder appears to be withholding from the PUBLIC, and IMO for good reason, because since he is conducting an investigation, "what he knew and when he knew it" represents the SCOPE of the investigation. I do NOT want him to talk about that.

 

[MachZer0]

Think about it - Issa insists on knowing "what Holder knew, and when he knew it." But THAT is precisely what Holder appears to be withholding from the PUBLIC, and IMO for good reason, because since he is conducting an investigation, "what he knew and when he knew it" represents the SCOPE of the investigation. I do NOT want him to talk about that.

If what he knew and when he knew it is part of the investigation, he's unqualified to conduct the investigation since he has a conflict of interest

 

[Assuredcw]

What he knew and when he knew it, IS is the investigation. It would BE the investigation.

Even I can see that the AG needs to keep that to himself.

 

[MachZer0]

What he knew and when he knew it, IS is the investigation. It would BE the investigation.

Even I can see that the AG needs to keep that to himself.

Then he does have a conflict of interest, but I certainly don't believe he has the integrity to recuse himself.

 

[Assuredcw]

 

[MachZer0]

Took the words right out of my mouth

 

[RETS]

No kidding.

Executive Producer RETS, in association with CF Productions, presents:​

​

The Thread That Entangles...​

​

Nearly Everyone in the Thread: He's guilty.

Assured: He's innocent.

NEitT: He's guilty- See? (provides reasoning)

A: No, he's innocent!

NEitT: He's guilty. (shows how and why)

A: He's innocent! This is a witch hunt!

NEitT: How can you say that? Look... (rehashes proof of guilt)

A: He's innocent! This is all about taking down Obama!

NEitT: Who said anything about Obama?

A: You all did!! He's innocent!

NEitT: Wait... Who's innocent now???

A:Holder! He's doing the right thing!

NEitT: Um... Lying under oath is the right thing?!

A: He HAD to! He's going to save us all from the big nasties!

NEitT: ...But he's guilty.

A: No, he's innocent!

NEitT: You asked if he was guilty...

A: But he's innocent!

NEitT: But he's not. (more proof)

A: He's innocent! He's the Attorney General! The legal savior of us all!

NEitT: ​

 

[Assuredcw]

So who do you propose should actually CONDUCT the investigation into what has happened / is happening with the guns, if Holder isn't going to be allowed to do it?!

I mean, there is such a thing as cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Let him do his job, or get an interim. Messing with him really isn't an option.

So it's circular - we really are (IMO) back to, is it a legitimate subpoena? No, it's not.

...Unless they have some REAL dirt on Holder, that would allow them to simply remove him. I am assuming the whistleblowers would have produced it if they had it, but Holder was too high up in the food chain to be involved in this. They weren't even discussing it with ATF supervision, so I can easily believe that the Big Guy way over the Justice Dept didn't know until it was DONE and that guy was dead. He may have known about the Fast and Furious operation that Janet Reno set up, but not what the employees had turned it into. What needs to be nailed is the insubordination which might actually have been compensated insubordination IOW corruption.

 

[MachZer0]

So who do you propose should actually CONDUCT the investigation into what has happened / is happening with the guns, if Holder isn't going to be allowed to do it?!

I mean, there is such a thing as cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Let him do his job, or get an interim. Messing with him really isn't an option.

So it's circular - we really are (IMO) back to, is it a legitimate subpoena? No, it's not.

...Unless they have some REAL dirt on Holder, that would allow them to simply remove him. I am assuming the whistleblowers would have produced it if they had it, but Holder was too high up in the food chain to be involved in this. They weren't even discussing it with ATF supervision, so I can easily believe that the Big Guy way over the Justice Dept didn't know until it was DONE and that guy was dead. He may have known about the Fast and Furious operation that Janet Reno set up, but not what the employees had turned it into after she left. What needs to be nailed is the insubordination which might actually have been compensated insubordination IOW corruption.

There should be an independent prosecutor/investigator. Perhaps someone like Patrick Fitzgerald.

 

[MachZer0]

The biggest question would be whether Obama would pardon Holder before the trial or after the trial

 

[Assuredcw]

We really do need to forget about partisanship. If AG Holder did something wrong, then President Obama has nothing to gain from protecting him. On the other hand, if AG Holder himself has done nothing wrong, then he should be free to run the Justice Dept as he sees fit.

The real question for both Mach and RETS and anyone else who wants to weigh in, is:

If the ATF employees left ATF upper management (if not direct supervision) out of the loop, why do you think AG Holder is culpable? Because if it is only because he is technically in charge, that is not a good enough reason to interfere with his investigation (subpoena it without his permission)! It is probably one of the most important investigations any Attorney General has had to do in a long, long time.