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Fast & Furious

Should Attorney General Holder be held in contempt?

  • Yes, he should be held in contempt (explain)

  • No, he should not be held in contempt (explain)

  • I am not sure.


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Assuredcw

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Holder is a member of the Executive Branch, appointed by the President. Issa is an elected member of the Legislative Branch. They aren't even in the same chain of command.

OK, you tell me -- what is the basis of the subpoena issued to Holder? Is not in fact Holder's refusal to tell them anything? They had no justification for issuing the subpoena, and Holder would certainly know that.

Get the whistleblowers to come up with proof Holder DID SOMETHING, anything related to Fast & Furious, and then issue that subpoena! Until then, he shouldn't have to tell you a thing. You certainly don't have an iota of probable cause to accuse the AG of wrongdoing. I agree without a doubt that somebody did something, though. All the more reason to give the AG a little room to maneuver, because he will be part of the solution if he wasn't in the original loop.

Give me a break!
 
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Assuredcw

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Civilian law enforcement information is not and should not be classified to the public, and especially not to the courts or Congress exercising the subpoena power.

Abusing their subpoena power would be more like it - see above.
 
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RETS

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If it's that bad, why haven't they hauled Janet Reno into these Congressional hearings? Fast & Furious was started on HER watch?!

They may bring here in yet.


Don't they have members of Congress with security clearances, who can be told classified information? A change of venue for this discussion might be in order. Instead of any more public hearings, there needs to be a closed-door debriefing. Then maybe one of Issa's Republican colleagues can tell him he's interfering with something important and to lay off. I certainly hope so. We need to move past partisanship and come together to clean this up.

Assured, let's take a step back for a minute, okay? Let's look at this impartially.


Holder, in 2010, was informed of F&F. He may have known about it sooner, perhaps, but we do not know that for certain.

F&F comes under investigation by a congressional committee. At this point, they are the BBiC's. As part of their congressional duty, they are to investigate potential mishandling of executive power. Thus, all called before them in hearing answer to them and no one else.

The committee, by way of legally binding subpoena, demand all documents and information pertaining to F&F.

AG Holder delivers to them the documents- But not all of them.

The committee calls him before them to answer questions under oath, as binding as in a court of law, during which he asserts that they have "all the documents" and that he has known about F&F for "maybe the last few weeks."

It comes out that not all the documents have been turned over. AG Holder has broken the law by not turning the documents over- Under normal circumstances, a subpoena can be challenged by the AG on grounds of ongoing investigation, sensitive information which cannot be disclosed to the public, etc. AG Holder did not challenge the subpoena. He has also broken the law by lying under oath.

It then comes out that AG Holder also was aware of F&F since at least 2010, which is extensively longer than "the last few weeks." AG Holder has broken the law again, and once more by lying under oath.


At this point, AG Holder is guilty of disregarding a lawful subpoena; and even if the subpoena wasn't lawful, as you seem to suggest, there is still the matter of two counts of lying under oath.

In any other court of law, in any other trial, and with any other person, these offenses would immediately result in a finding of contempt.


So, with it laid out like this, regardless of what he is TRYING to do; regardless of what GOOD HE'S DONE; do you, Assured, put forth the notion that AG Holder is above the law?
 
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Assuredcw

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AG Holder delivers to them the documents- But not all of them.

:doh:

Why on earth should he have to tell them anything?

You say that AG Holder is not above the law. But neither is Congressman Issa, and he appears to be abusing Congressional subpoena power. They didn't get anyone to blow the whistle on Eric Holder, and that's the problem. Issa is acting as though the whistle was blown on AG Holder and not on the Justice Dept / ATF / FBI project as a whole. So I don't know about that subpoena, and I am not going to view Holder as a criminal for resisting it. He may not have any choice about that, because everything is being made public and that could ruin what he might be working on.
 
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RETS

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Madam, it would seem you are utterly hopeless in being reasoned with on this subject. You cannot see reality in this case, and you cannot understand it either.

The facts remain: He lied under oath. Period. You asked in the beginning of this thread if he should be held in contempt. The answer, according to any law professor, judge, lawyer, etc., is YES, if for no other reason than that he lied.

Why on earth should he have to tell them anything? This is not a fairy tale world. Laws apply here, and they apply to him as they do to everyone else. He was ordered before them as part of their dutiful investigation. He is required to answer them. Why? It is the law.

I look forward to being able to converse with you in the future, but in this case, I bid you adieu.
 
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citizenthom

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Madam, it would seem you are utterly hopeless in being reasoned with on this subject. You cannot see reality in this case, and you cannot understand it either.

The facts remain: He lied under oath. Period. You asked in the beginning of this thread if he should be held in contempt. The answer, according to any law professor, judge, lawyer, etc., is YES, if for no other reason than that he lied.

Why on earth should he have to tell them anything? This is not a fairy tale world. Laws apply here, and they apply to him as they do to everyone else. He was ordered before them as part of their dutiful investigation. He is required to answer them. Why? It is the law.

I look forward to being able to converse with you in the future, but in this case, I bid you adieu.

QFT
 
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Abatis

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So do you think the whole (Fast & Furious) concept was Holder's idea? Or do you just think he is covering up? If so, what do you think his motive is for covering up?

For now Holder is enjoying plausible deniability.

It is a certainty that Fast and Furious never had a real law enforcement objective. Known gun traffickers (some paid FBI informants) were permitted to transfer guns to smugglers with no further investigation / interdiction with the sole intent to have these weapons turn up at crime scenes on both sides of the border.

This operation was not flawed; it worked to perfection and the unavoidable outcome of multiple instances of criminal misuse was being used to fulfill the policy initiative that the operation was created to achieve.

While Obama administration fingerprints may never be found on it the objective of this "behind the scenes" operation was to fuel support for administration gun control initiatives / objectives.

As far as the contempt charges go, they are warranted and should have no problem being successfully brought. Holder has lied and obfuscated and intended to cripple any investigation. The DoJ has misrepresented the facts in every correspondence with the Oversight Committee with the most egregious being the Feb 4th letter . . . You know, the one full of lies and misrepresentations that ATF never let guns walk or even that the ATF had never, never, ev-er "sanctioned or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons" to suspicious people . . .

The earliest subpeonas issued were for the email trains and markups pertaining to that false letter's generation. The DoJ has never complied with those requests and now hides behind the magical Feb 20th date when the OIG was asked to look into the F&F operation.

So for now, neither We the People or Congress will know who wrote and approved that letter that denied what October 2010 internal DC DoJ correspondence clearly admit or that memoramdum addressed directly to "THE ATTORNEY GENERAL" in July of 2010 clearly describe, naming the operation and its origin date (contradicting what Holder told Congress in May 2011).

Personally, I'd just like to see Holder resign in disgrace as the completely incompetent, race card playing buffoon he is and I'd rather see Mexico expand their prosecution of murders of Mexican citizens to US government officials responsible for Fast and Furious and be successful in charging them and Holder.

I'd pay for the plane ticket for Holder's extradition!
 
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Abatis

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BTW, the Inspector General cleared AG Holder of involvement in the operation. He authorized nothing, and he probably didn't ignore whistle-blowers either.

Here's the link from this past Christmas:

Angry former ATF chief blames subordinates for Fast and Furious - Los Angeles Times

Did you see my last post (I think it's two posts back)? I said that the Inspector General cleared AG Holder of even being involved in this in the first place! As soon as that was announced, Congressman Issa should have told the whistle-blowers to work with AG Holder on this. There was no reason at that point to second-guess the AG, and thus no need for ridiculous subpoenas and 7 hearings (so far!), and all of this other nonsense. It's a mess and I don't think Holder needs Congress' "help."

What on Earth leads you to believe that the OIG "cleared" Holder?

Nothing has come out of OIG regarding Fast And Furious and the report that was promised "early in 2012" is now being considered overdue. Democrats even are asking what's taking so long because they don't want the report's findings (either way) to be an issue lingering deep into the election cycle.

The only person "clearing" Holder is you; the link you provided doesn't say anything of the sort, do you have anything else?
 
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Abatis

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Issa shouldn't be asking him ANYTHING, because he didn't authorize Fast & Furious. He didn't authorize, create, or order anything having to do with Fast & Furious. So calling him on the carpet, specifically, allows the people who did this on their own without his permission to escape accountability for it.

Holder is certainly directing the cover-up and approving the deceptive replies to Congress since February of 2011. The Feb 4th letter was an embarrassment that such blatenet falsehoods would be presented as the official position of the United States Department of Justice in direct correspondence to Congressional Oversight . . . (well, should have been embarrassing but then we are talking about the Chicago Thugocracy)

DoJ has released 7000 highly redacted pages since February 2011 to Congress but in Feb '11 the DoJ's Inspector General collected 77,000 documents it believed pertinent to the investigation . . .

Huh?

The Obama administration's Mexican gunrunning program is bigger than just ATF. It involves the FBI and DHS and even the State Department.

The radical conspiracy theorist in me is thinking the third gun that disappeared from Border Agent Terry's murder scene evidence list (two AK's are admitted Arizona sourced, Fast and Furious guns) will turn out to be a State Department direct sale gun.

As soon as Obama was sworn in the State Department ballooned the number of direct gun sales to the Mexican government ten fold . . . . even though its own audits showed a 26% diversion rate to the cartels of direct sale guns.

The intent of ALL of this was to increase the number of guns found / seized in Mexico that can be sourced to US manufacturers (not necessarily to US dealers though). 26% of 18,709 is more than double the number of guns lost in Fast and Furious . . . and that is just for 2009.

The State Department refuses to release the number of guns sold to Mexico in 2010 or 2011.

This entire administration is a criminal enterprise.
 
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Abatis

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If it's that bad, why haven't they hauled Janet Reno into these Congressional hearings? Fast & Furious was started on HER watch?!

Substantiation for that claim is?

AG Holder was briefed on July 2010:

  • " . . . the National Drug Intelligence Center Document and Media Exploitation Team at the Phoenix Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCTDETF) Strike Force will support the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives’ Phoenix Field Division with its investigation of Manuel Celis-Acosta as part of OCDETF Operation Fast and Furious. This investigation, initiated in September 2009 in conjunction with the Drug Enforcement Administration, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and the Phoenix Police Department, involves a Phoenix-based firearms trafficking ring headed by Manual Celis-Acosta. Celis-Acosta and [redacted] straw purchasers are responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels. They also have direct ties to the Sinaloa Cartel which is suspected of providing $1 million for the purchase of firearms in the greater Phoenix area. "


So, please note, the head law enforcement officer in the United States of America was just told that between the inception of Fast and Furious (Sept, '09) to the week of this breifing (July, '10) this operation of his Department of Justice (ATF/FBI/DEA) and DHS/ICE had simply put 1500 guns into the hands of Mexican narco-terrorists.


These active, targeted operations are exactly what Obama meant when he told Sarah Brady to just chill out, that his administration was "working on gun control under the radar" . . .

They can not get what they want through Congress so they orchestrate violence and mayhem IN A FOREIGN NATION with invisible hands, blaming it on legal US gun commerce then using that "evidence" to advance for US gun control in general and a new assault weapon ban in particular.

Feel free to defend the pure unadulterated scum this administration is and the anti American actions they have taken.
 
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RETS

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Substantiation for that claim is?

That claim she quoted came from me, originally.

Fast and Furious as it is now known was conceived in 2009, but during Reno's tenure, an incident similar to that which brought F&F to the fore occurred in the Las Vegas area. It was covered locally, and sparsely. It was not picked up by any national news media, and it went away very quickly.

It is common practice to rename any operation which may have been compromised. With that understanding, and based on a little investigation of my own, I believe that F&F was possibly initiated under Reno, and potentially even further back.

With that said, if this is the case, then it will most certainly come out. If it is not, then I am wrong, and glad to be so.
 
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Assuredcw

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That claim she quoted came from me, originally.

Fast and Furious as it is now known was conceived in 2009, but during Reno's tenure, an incident similar to that which brought F&F to the fore occurred in the Las Vegas area. It was covered locally, and sparsely. It was not picked up by any national news media, and it went away very quickly.

It is common practice to rename any operation which may have been compromised. With that understanding, and based on a little investigation of my own, I believe that F&F was possibly initiated under Reno, and potentially even further back.

With that said, if this is the case, then it will most certainly come out. If it is not, then I am wrong, and glad to be so.

Thank you kindly for posting this! :wave:
 
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Assuredcw

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What on Earth leads you to believe that the OIG "cleared" Holder?

Nothing has come out of OIG regarding Fast And Furious and the report that was promised "early in 2012" is now being considered overdue. Democrats even are asking what's taking so long because they don't want the report's findings (either way) to be an issue lingering deep into the election cycle.

The only person "clearing" Holder is you; the link you provided doesn't say anything of the sort, do you have anything else?

My local paper published this and I saved the link. I copy-pasted the link into this thread, but it appears to have been changed. So I don't know anymore. Something appears to be happening, and at a pretty high level, and I don't like it...
 
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HerbieHeadley

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Open Borders: Fast and Furious: Infowars Exclusive (HQ) - YouTube

Patrick Henningson interviews elected state officials in Arizona and provides a broad primer to the Fast and Furious scandal...

=====================

On Wednesday evening, Democrats overwhelming voted to support a measure pushed by Utah Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz that demanded accountability from the Obama administration in Operation Fast and Furious.
Pelosi avoids Fast and Furious, fails to vote with Democrats demanding accountability - Yahoo! News
 
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Assuredcw

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The one question Congressman Issa has yet to answer is, what will impeaching Holder do to solve the gun smuggling problem? Because Attorney General Holder appears to be doing his best to contain the problem, at least from our end.

Quoting from one of the links below:

...Suspended [Colombus, NM) police chief Vegas last week changed his plea on conspiracy smuggling and public corruption charges to guilty, the last of three town officials to plead guilty in the case that has now seen all but two of 14 defendants admit being involved in the plot.
The [Federal] indictment didn't say who specifically on the other side of the border received the guns, only that they were crossing into Mexico with a ready market among drug cartels. Vega faces up to 35 years in prison, Espinosa faces 68 years and Gutierrez could be sentenced to almost 300 years.

We can blame AG Holder all we want - those guns didn't get across the border by themselves. I am worried that if the subpoena is allowed to be valid, that this important work will be curtailed. Let's pray that someone Issa trusts will get a debriefing that will help end this circus. We can't afford to have the criminals sitting down with their popcorn to enjoy it, either. That will hurt all of us. :sigh:

Here's a link with the story:

New Mexico Town Caught In Gun Smuggling Scandal Tries To Recover (VIDEO)

Here's another link detailing the timetable (2009, folks!):

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...ice-dept-gun-smuggling-scandal-184408968.html
 
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RETS

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The one question Congressman Issa has yet to answer is, what will impeaching Holder do to solve the gun smuggling problem?...
We can blame AG Holder all we want - those guns didn't get across the border by themselves... We can't afford to have the criminals sitting down with their popcorn to enjoy it, either. That will hurt all of us.

I fully agree, Assured. But as I've been saying, and as you have been patently ignoring: Holder is just as much a criminal as these others. Not with as much blood on his hands, and certainly to a lesser degree, but still a criminal.
 
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Assuredcw

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RETS:

...But as I've been saying, and as you have been patently ignoring: Holder is just as much a criminal as these others. Not with as much blood on his hands, and certainly to a lesser degree, but still a criminal.

I'm not ignoring it. I just think it's a sketchy subpoena and that Darryl Issa should be ashamed of himself for suspecting Eric Holder of double-dealing before he would ever suspect Janet Reno. Don't obstruct Federal investigations and prosecutions of corrupt public officials just because you want to stick it to President Obama. No I don't have proof of that. But it's loony tunes to me that Issa and his buddies don't seem to care about the lower-level and lower-salaried people who are in fact facilitating the smuggling. It may even include a New Mexico US Attorney. That's ugly.
 
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RETS

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I'm not ignoring it. I just think it's a sketchy subpoena and that Darryl Issa should be ashamed of himself for suspecting Eric Holder of double-dealing before he would ever suspect Janet Reno. I think that's despicable, because it was her baby. Quiz her on what safeguards she created to protect against corruption, with such a potentially dangerous mission. Don't obstruct Federal investigations and prosecutions of corrupt public officials just because you want to stick it to President Obama. No I don't have proof for that. But it's loony tunes to me that Issa and his buddies don't seem to care about the lower-level and lower-salaried people who are in fact facilitating the smuggling. It may even include a New Mexico US Attorney. That's ugly.

Assured, you were defending Holder just as rabidly before you even heard that Reno might have formed the forerunner to F&F.

You simply don't want to see Holder guilty. Admit it. Just admit that you'd rather people ignore any wrongdoing on his part just so you can live in this fairy tale land where Holder is innocent of any and all crime. Admit it!
 
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Assuredcw

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You simply don't want to see Holder guilty. Admit it. Just admit that you'd rather people ignore any wrongdoing on his part just so you can live in this fairy tale land where Holder is innocent of any and all crime. Admit it!

There must be some misunderstanding, here. The only reason why I am defending AG Eric Holder is that I looked into his background (as I did President Obama's) when he was first appointed. Very impressive, and originally appointed as a Federal judge by President Reagan. So yes, I am not only reluctant but skeptical, because he didn't pay his dues to get this far to ruin everything by getting corrupt now. I simply do not buy it, and we NEED him to clean up this mess.

Here's a quick Wikipedia for you to skim if you'd like, or you can do a Google search:

Eric Holder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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