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Fascism is not evil.

RDKirk

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First let me say, despite the provocative title, that I am *not* pro-Fascism any more than I am pro-Liberalism or pro-Communism.

But I am beginning to recognize a big problem with the post-WW2 church. The problem is that Sin and evil became equated with fascism, or non-Liberalism.
If you are implying that the post-WW2 church in the West considers Fascism any more evil than Communism, I would disagree with you. Perhaps you were not sufficiently politically cognizant during the height of the Cold War. Perhaps you don't recall that the West in general and the US in particular literally ignored the existence of Communist China until the early 70s.
But Fascism is not anymore inherently evil and Liberalism or Communism. All of these secular ideologies have their own propensities towards evil. There exist good people and evil people in all of them.

Liberalism and Communism are, at their cores, evil because they are not the Kingdom of Heaven.

But as we are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven to these nations, we can certainly rate their governments according to how freely we can carry out our diplomatic mission in these nations. Even in the earthly context, a diplomat would tell you that assignment to England was an easier life than assignment to the Soviet Union. And particularly so if your mission is to provide encouragement and asylum to defectors as is the mission of the Church. A diplomat in England could openly encourage Brits to immigrate to the US; that was certainly not the case in the USSR.

Two salient factors of classical Fascism, as described by the people who invented Fascism are:

1. The identification of a supreme, inspired leader who physically embodies the spiritual will of the nation

2. The abandonment of political rationality by the populous in their acceptance of that inspired leader.

To the extent that a classically Liberal government does not require the abandonment of rationality in acceptance of any particular human leader or human faction (IOW, the extent to which it tolerates political and ethical dissent), it is more permissive of the Church mission, and thus "less evil" than either Fascist or Communist governments.
 

lifepsyop

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If you are implying that the post-WW2 church in the West considers Fascism any more evil than Communism, I would disagree with you. Perhaps you were not sufficiently politically cognizant during the height of the Cold War. Perhaps you don't recall that the West in general and the US in particular literally ignored the existence of Communist China until the early 70s.

There is a lot to discuss in your point here.

Firstly, yes the Cold War was a very passionate one for the USA and it was considered a battle of Good/Freedom over godless communism/authoritarianism.

But really the Cold War is just a continuation of WW2. Stalin is really just Hitler 2.0. In Boomer America, What villain comes before Hitler? Nobody. The Free World vs. Authoritarian Dictator meme has its genesis with WW2. The Cold War is simply the sequel to the Good vs. Evil framework established with Liberalism vs. Fascism in the battle against Nazi Germany.

Also consider how these wars are thought of today. It is really mostly the conservative demographic that still feels passionately about the battle against communism. Leftists view the Cold war in a more nuanced way because they like communism, and sometimes they seem to get more riled up by a figure like Joseph McCarthy instead of someone like Stalin.

The important point is that both Leftists and Conservatives find themselves joining hands, narratively speaking, when it comes to WW2. Both agree that Hitler was essentially Satan and it was a battle of ultimate Good vs. Evil. That's why the WW2 mythos has such extraordinary sway over America.


Liberalism and Communism are, at their cores, evil because they are not the Kingdom of Heaven.

But as we are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven to these nations, we can certainly rate their governments according to how freely we can carry out our diplomatic mission in these nations. Even in the earthly context, a diplomat would tell you that assignment to England was an easier life than assignment to the Soviet Union. And particularly so if your mission is to provide encouragement and asylum to defectors as is the mission of the Church. A diplomat in England could openly encourage Brits to immigrate to the US; that was certainly not the case in the USSR.

Okay, but contrast this situation with present day Liberalism, where it is almost a criminal offense to criticize homosexuality, and basic ordering of the Christian family, especially with respect to male and female roles are considered evil and tyrannical.

If you really think about it, you would have to admit that a society living under 1930's Fascism was more open to the Gospel than 21st century Liberalism. Do you disagree?

And in that respect, it is absurd to point fingers at Fascism from the seat of such a degenerate liberal democracy.

Two salient factors of classical Fascism, as described by the people who invented Fascism are:

1. The identification of a supreme, inspired leader who physically embodies the spiritual will of the nation

2. The abandonment of political rationality by the populous in their acceptance of that inspired leader.

To the extent that a classically Liberal government does not require the abandonment of rationality in acceptance of any particular human leader or human faction (IOW, the extent to which it tolerates political and ethical dissent), it is more permissive of the Church mission, and thus "less evil" than either Fascist or Communist governments.

in my opinion this is an example of the "Boomer Truth Regime" of the Post-War Consensus, in this case the assumption that an authoritarian political figure is evil simply because they are authoritarian.

over a thousand years of Christendom did not have any fundamental problem with a reigning monarch.

granted the Enlightenment and age of democratic revolutions kicked off anti-monarchy sentiments, but it's really in the latter 20th century (postwar consensus) that you find this neurotic rejection of any kind of authority as a pathological evil. This is why Liberal Democracy comes to be viewed as "Sacred" at the end of the century and referred to as The End of History, something of a secular eschaton.

But now we are returning to history.
 
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RDKirk

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There is a lot to discuss in your point here.

Firstly, yes the Cold War was a very passionate one for the USA and it was considered a battle of Good/Freedom over godless communism/authoritarianism.

But really the Cold War is just a continuation of WW2. Stalin is really just Hitler 2.0. In Boomer America, What villain comes before Hitler? Nobody. The Free World vs. Authoritarian Dictator meme has its genesis with WW2. The Cold War is simply the sequel to the Good vs. Evil framework established with Liberalism vs. Fascism in the battle against Nazi Germany.
I would disagree. It might be true that there are War Genners for whom Hitler was a greater danger than Stalin...we know there were significant groups of American Communists throughout and after the war, but not American Nazis. But by the time the Boomer generation gained political cognizance, WWII was fading (it was never in our own memories) but the Cold War was preeminent. We were terrified of Stalin and then Khrushchev, not Hitler. There are even Boomers who are Holocaust deniers, but not Cold War deniers.

But if you conflate (as you're trying to do now) fear and revulsion of Fascism with fear and revulsion of Communism, then you're breaking down your own position.
Also consider how these wars are thought of today. It is really mostly the conservative demographic that still feels passionately about the battle against communism. Leftists view the Cold war in a more nuanced way because they like communism, and sometimes they seem to get more riled up by a figure like Joseph McCarthy instead of someone like Stalin.

The important point is that both Leftists and Conservatives find themselves joining hands, narratively speaking, when it comes to WW2. Both agree that Hitler was essentially Satan and it was a battle of ultimate Good vs. Evil. That's why the WW2 mythos has such extraordinary sway over America.
Yes, many Boomers in both groups accept that during WWII, Fascism (or, particularly, Nazism) was the primary evil to be fought. That's as far as that goes. But the Cold War was the war that Boomers fought.
Okay, but contrast this situation with present day Liberalism, where it is almost a criminal offense to criticize homosexuality, and basic ordering of the Christian family, especially with respect to male and female roles are considered evil and tyrannical.

If you really think about it, you would have to admit that a society living under 1930's Fascism was more open to the Gospel than 21st century Liberalism. Do you disagree?

And in that respect, it is absurd to point fingers at Fascism from the seat of such a degenerate liberal democracy.
No, I would disagree that Fascism is any more open to the gospel than 21st Century Liberalism (at least to this point). We see that Fascism led to Nazism, an ideology that permitted no other "inspired leader" than the Fuhrer. That is the inexorable destination of Fascism...that's where it goes. That's not necessarily where 21st Century Liberalism is headed, unless it goes more directly down a Marxist path. But it's not there yet.
in my opinion this is an example of the "Boomer Truth Regime" of the Post-War Consensus, in this case the assumption that an authoritarian political figure is evil simply because they are authoritarian.
I was very specific about the danger being whether or not the Church is allowed to carry out its mission, not the actual type of government. Every type of earthly government should be in tension with the Church to some degree because Christians look to a different source of authority than any government.

The degree of tension between Church and State increases with the increase in authoritarianism of the government. Any style of government can get there, but at the moment a classically Liberal government is farther from that point than any Communist or Fascist governments are (I categorize the government of the DPRK as classically Fascist, not Communist).

And I'd point out that the current US Democratic party has been following an increasingly Marxist ideology for the course of this century, not a true Liberal ideology. Maybe this past election will derail them from that destination.
 

linux.poet

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Dispensational Premillennialism (DP)

They are the minority pov, not the orthodox, historical, or majority one.
I'm slightly concerned that you're living in an echo chamber, because every church I've been to believes Dispensational Premillennialism as described. My pastor has been careful to educate us on other views such as amillennialism and post-millennialism, but the vast majority of our church members still believe in Premillennialist positions. I think I'm going to maintain that there is a difference between Christ's future rule in the millennial kingdom and fascism, as stated. I can see why you've linked "fascism is evil" and Premillennialism. If we go back to 1 Samuel 8, we will find that God did not want his people to be ruled by a human king because He wanted to rule them as king. Thus a millennial reign of Christ on the earth would not contradict God's intentions because Jesus is God ruling over Israel in that case.

However, even if we throw out the idea of Christ's future rule on the earth, which would be a monarchy, I think we can draw a very stiff dividing line between a "philosopher king" type government and fascism. The difference between the two is that the "philosopher king" looks out for the good of their people, and adapts their ruling philosophy to meet their needs. A fascist looks out for their philosophy at the expense of their people. To the fascist, people are toys for philosophical experimentation, to play around with to find the best philosophical solution. The latter is NOT how Christ treats people - we're not toys to try out His new ideas on, since He knows everything anyway, we are to be loved and served and redeemed.

(We also can distinguish between a "philosopher king" type rule and theocracy, because there is a huge difference between Iran (a theocracy) and Oman (a "philosopher king" type government).)

Second, I hope that we can agree that the Holocaust was evil. Part of the "fascism is evil" cultural narrative is due to a correlation/causation mix-up. Since fascism was the philosophy behind Hitler's government people assume that it was the cause of the Holocaust atrocity, and thus throw the philosophy out with its result. We need to take that into consideration.

But third, if we examine fascist governments, we tend to find that the leaders of said governments set themselves up as gods to be worshipped. At the very least, any philosophy or actions or thoughts that contradict those of the absolute ruler are not to be tolerated. People get killed for doing things the ruler doesn't like, and they have to cater to his every whim, walking on eggshells. Since Christianity is absolute truth, Christians are slaughtered under fascist rule. All rulers are to submit to God as ultimate authority and fascist leaders are wrong to usurp the divine position. They are inviting judgement from God on themselves and their followers. See Daniel 3 for a prime story of how Nebuchadnezzar tried to usurp the place of God, and how God judged him for it in Daniel 4 by making him crawl around and eat grass.

As for a democracy or republic, this idea operates on "Without counsel, plans go awry, But in the multitude of counselors they are established." (Proverbs 15:22 NKJV) The idea is to use a plurality of fallen humans to dilute and correct for the fallen sin nature of mankind and reduce and correct errors in governance. The result could be arrived at by a plurality of elected advisors/representatives to a philosopher king, but some dudes back in 1776 in the backwoods decided that they didn't like kings and that they were too expensive, a waste of the people's money. That's how we got to the American government.

Fascism, by contrast, disregards this advice from Proverbs in favor of saying that the ruler's philosophy is superior to his own subjects' ability to think for themselves. This is wrong and leads to forced human idolatry and thus forced human slaughter. Therefore, without diving into Premillennialist thought positions and irrational fears of Christ's future authoritarian reign being fascist in nature, I can conclude that fascism is evil and the OP is incorrect.
 

RDKirk

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Was Salazar's regime fascist?
Salazar’s government is best described as a conservative authoritarian regime with a focus on stability, Catholic morality, and resistance to modernization. It exemplified a uniquely Portuguese form of right-wing dictatorship that prioritized social hierarchy, colonial preservation, and moral conservatism over militaristic or expansionist ambitions.
 

Malleeboy

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Just to be clear I do not personally see Salazar as Fascist. He maintained an alliance without the UK throughout his rule.

However he was a conservative, nationalist dictator, which many would misconstrue as Fascist.
 
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linux.poet

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Just to be clear I do not personally see Salazar as Fascist. He maintained an alliance without the UK throughout his rule.

However he was a conservative, nationalist dictator, which many would misconstrue as Fascist.
From what I understand of Salazar, he seemed to have internalized the highly traditional society of Portugal and adopted the values into his ruling policy, rather than the other way around. His willingness to submit to Catholic morality also disqualifies him from being fascist because he was willing to acknowledge a moral authority greater than himself.

Salazar also was described as nervous ruler from all the sources I've read about him. I think if the values of the Portuguese people changed, he would have swung with the tide and tried to look after the people's interest rather than his own to keep his hold on power, which places him in philosopher king territory more than fascism.

The reason he might look like a fascist is because Portugal is a traditional society with a very stable value system that doesn't change very much, making Salazar look like the guy who was freezing those values in time, rather than the other way around. As proof, Portugal has hung onto their traditional singing art, football, and Catholic values even after Salazar has been gone, which means that he wasn't imposing those things on them.
 
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lifepsyop

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I would disagree. It might be true that there are War Genners for whom Hitler was a greater danger than Stalin...we know there were significant groups of American Communists throughout and after the war, but not American Nazis. But by the time the Boomer generation gained political cognizance, WWII was fading (it was never in our own memories) but the Cold War was preeminent. We were terrified of Stalin and then Khrushchev, not Hitler. There are even Boomers who are Holocaust deniers, but not Cold War deniers.

I am sure at the time, the threat was more particular to that specific situation, but just look at how the postwar consensus has crystalized over time. Nobody cares about Kruschev anymore, or even Stalin. You could walk around town wearing a t-shirt with their faces on it and hardly anyone would care. If you wore a t-shirt with the face of Hitler, it would provoke an emotional reaction in most.

Few people (besides conservatives) would care if you displayed a communist flag. Both Leftists and conservatives would recoil in horror if you displayed a nazi swastika. That means something. in our present day cultural mythos, i.e. the Postwar Consensus, the swastika is the location of true evil.

But if you conflate (as you're trying to do now) fear and revulsion of Fascism with fear and revulsion of Communism, then you're breaking down your own position.

I don't think most people really analyze Fascism or Communism that much, but instead develop a kind of simplistic map of good and evil which defines their reality. Most people think of Hitler as Satan, the Nazis as demons, Auschwitz as Hell, etc. The western world's political ideology is framed around WW2 as a central axis point of what is right or wrong. Everything we do or do not do is to avoid becoming a Nazi.

- Open borders because only Nazis care about which ethnic groups they live around.

- Have to start X war because otherwise we are reenacting the 'appeasement of Hitler'

etc.

Yes, many Boomers in both groups accept that during WWII, Fascism (or, particularly, Nazism) was the primary evil to be fought. That's as far as that goes. But the Cold War was the war that Boomers fought.

Yet many other Boomer were anti-war in this time period. Actually this is the period where the anti-war movement is really romanticized, a movement which continues up until the Iraq invasion in the 2000's. (ironically many of those anti-war protesters are now raging cheerleaders for war with Russia)

Some celebrity boomers even showed off their siding with the USA's enemies during the Cold War.

There is no romanticization of the anti-war/isolationist movement during WW2. Those people are regarded as enemies, and WW2 is crystallized as the 'good war' that nobody should question.

No, I would disagree that Fascism is any more open to the gospel than 21st Century Liberalism (at least to this point). We see that Fascism led to Nazism, an ideology that permitted no other "inspired leader" than the Fuhrer. That is the inexorable destination of Fascism...that's where it goes. That's not necessarily where 21st Century Liberalism is headed, unless it goes more directly down a Marxist path. But it's not there yet.

There is nothing in the Gospel/NT about strong leaders, emperors, kings, dictators, etc. being a bad thing, quite the opposite actually, we are instructed to honor the king.

Of course anything can become an idol, and I'm sure 1930's Germans had their fair share of idolatry, but look at how Americans have worshiped individual liberty and "freedom" as the greatest good.

The degree of tension between Church and State increases with the increase in authoritarianism of the government. Any style of government can get there, but at the moment a classically Liberal government is farther from that point than any Communist or Fascist governments are (I categorize the government of the DPRK as classically Fascist, not Communist).

My point was that it was probably easier to openly share the Gospel in 1930's Germany than it is in 21st century America, or western Europe for that matter.

There is actually a very interesting point to be made, where we find Christianity is still very strong in formerly communist states, where it has withered away in liberal societies. You could argue that the communist persecution made them stronger, but it's also because they were spared the liberal ideology of the boomer generation.

And I'd point out that the current US Democratic party has been following an increasingly Marxist ideology for the course of this century, not a true Liberal ideology. Maybe this past election will derail them from that destination.

True, but many would argue that the marxism/wokeism that we see today is the natural outgrowth of classical liberalism. If your main guiding rule is "liberty", then it inevitably leads to the breakdown of any virtue or order, like the family for example. Women were "liberated" from the rule of men, just as children are being "liberated" from the rule of their parents and even their own biological sex. Likewise people in liberal societies have been granted the "liberty" celebrating homosexuality, of unlimited access to p*rn*graphy, etc.... you can call this stuff marxist, but you can also say it's simply the Declaration of Independence in its purest form, with individuals being allowed to pursue happiness however they desire.

again 1930's Fascist Germany or Italy probably had a far more Godly society on average than present day America. That doesn't mean I support Fascism necessarily, but I'm just emphasizing the absurdity of calling it evil.
 
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lifepsyop

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I don't think most people really analyze Fascism or Communism that much, but instead develop a kind of simplistic map of good and evil which defines their reality. Most people think of Hitler as Satan, the Nazis as demons, Auschwitz as Hell, etc. The western world's political ideology is framed around WW2 as a central axis point of what is right or wrong. Everything we do or do not do is to avoid becoming a Nazi.

- Open borders because only Nazis care about which ethnic groups they live around.

- Have to start X war because otherwise we are reenacting the 'appeasement of Hitler'

etc.

I think the above scenario represents a kind of "sin" of the church in postwar western liberal democracy.

We have replaced the moral framework of the NT with a type of secular moral framework that I outlined above.

For example, Homosexuality, something that is spelled out in the New Testament in black and white as sinful, is passively tolerated by the Christian community. On their way to church, many Christians may drive down a street covered in LGBT pride flags and think nothing of it.

But just imagine that street had a NAZI SWASTIKA hanging from every other window. Those same Christians would become apoplectic and go into immediate crisis mode.

What conclusions can we draw from this? It is an example of how postwar consensus Christians have reframed their morality along secular lines.

The secular sin of Fascism is a hundred times worse than the Biblical sin of homosexuality.


This is the "Boomer Truth Regime" that is now being cast aside. The Postwar Consensus is crumbling as we speak.
 
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