Fascism is not evil.

[lifepsyop]

First let me say, despite the provocative title, that I am *not* pro-Fascism any more than I am pro-Liberalism or pro-Communism.

But I am beginning to recognize a big problem with the post-WW2 church. The problem is that Sin and evil became equated with fascism, or non-Liberalism.

But Fascism is not anymore inherently evil and Liberalism or Communism. All of these secular ideologies have their own propensities towards evil. There exist good people and evil people in all of them.

And yet the 20th century postwar church has essentially signed onto the postwar liberal consensus which says that to be a 'Good' society, you must fully oppose Fascism, any other form of "authoritarianism" for that matter.. (implicitly embracing Antifascism and 'Open Society'-style Liberalism) This is what we refer to as "The Free World"

So what's the problem with calling Fascism evil? Well... for starters, is there any scripture that supports that? If you find me one verse that implies Fascism is sinful, I can find you ten verses that show how Liberalism is sinful...

And yet, in postwar America, we've basically redefined Good and Evil around either the acceptance or rejection of Fascism.

Before the post-WW2 liberal consensus, it was the SECULAR world that was viewed as sinful and fallen.
After the post-WW2 liberal consensus, this 'program' was essentially replaced, and instead it became FASCISM (and RACISM) that was the greatest evil.

So as long as you're not a FASCIST, you're good.

Likewise, as long as you're not a RACIST, you're good. Racism and anti-Racism works the same way as Facism. That is to say, Sin and Evil became equated with Racism. Racism was redefined as one of the greatest evils. You could be a lying adulterous homosexual thief and still find grace in the Christian community... however, if you lived as a saint but were found to have made a "racist" comment ten years ago, you would be excommunicated as an untouchable.

Things like Fascism and Racism became a kind of "Super-Evil" or "Super-Sin", and subsequently all the 'normal' sins...(you know the ones that Jesus and apostles were always talking about), were downgraded to just being a product of the fallen sinful world... People are fallen and that's just something we have to live with.



To try and sum this up... the post-WW2 church has aligned itself with a secular framework of Good and Evil, a moral framework which sometimes runs parallel with scripture, and sometimes not.

In the year 2024, the fruits of this postwar moral framework are now laid out plainly for all to see. As just one example, we generally aren't even permitted to recognize the difference between boys and girls anymore. It's a disaster.


To use another example that's been in talked about lately... in regards to the postwar "Open Society".... The government flying tens of thousands of Haitians into small-town America, completely overwhelming the resources of the people who live there. From a biblical perspective, one could argue that this is a great evil inflicted upon your neighbors, forcing a town that already has lots of issues with poverty, drugs, crime, etc. and dropping a massive influx of foreigners upon them....

BUT, in the postwar liberal moral order, this is a great GOOD because that town is becoming more 'open' and diverse... the more that you replace the native small-town population with people from other parts of the world, the faster that town will become 'non-racist'. Because in the postwar consensus, any community that wants to preserve itself, whether ethnically or culturally, is expressing some form of FASCISM, which is the greatest evil...

The church was supposed to stand up for their neighbors, and instead it sacrificed them in the promotion of the Open Society.


Likewise, if you reject homosexuality or transgenderism, or feminism too strongly, then you are showing signs of Authoritarianism and Fascism... the greatest Evil!

For the last 70 years, the church has tried to keep its head down and not think about these things too much... ("Just preach the Gospel!") ... But now those chickens are coming home to roost.

Fathers are looking around and seeing that their young daughters are not going to have anything close to the communal safety that they had growing up.

Was it really that loving to allow the nation to undergo such a transformation? Just so you wouldn't be accused of being a "nazi" or a "racist" or homophobe, or sexist, or bigot or whatever...

Instead of letting the secular world dictate the terms of morality, the church should finally return to a Biblical framework of what is sin, and what is good and evil.

 

[Josheb]

But Fascism is not anymore inherently evil and Liberalism or Communism.

Would you agree the same statement could be made about monarchies, democracies, and representative republics?

 

[Josheb]

To try and sum this up... the post-WW2 church has aligned itself with a secular framework of Good and Evil, a moral framework which sometimes runs parallel with scripture, and sometimes not.

Do you actually mean to characterize the entire body of Christ that way?

 

[Josheb]

For the last 70 years, the church has tried to keep its head down and not think about these things too much... ("Just preach the Gospel!") ... But now those chickens are coming home to roost.

Are you familiar with the works of Cornelius Van Til, Francis Schaeffer, Lesslie Newbigin, Nancy Pearcey, or Carl Truesdale? How about Dominionism, Theonomy, and/or Christian Reconstructionism? Are you familiar with any of these?

Are you a Dispensational Premillennialist? Do you know why I ask that question?

 

[BobRyan]

First let me say, despite the provocative title, that I am *not* pro-Fascism any more than I am pro-Liberalism or pro-Communism.

But I am beginning to recognize a big problem with the post-WW2 church. The problem is that Sin and evil became equated with fascism, or non-Liberalism.

But Fascism is not anymore inherently evil and Liberalism or Communism. All of these secular ideologies have their own propensities towards evil. There exist good people and evil people in all of them.

rise of fascism in Germany

During the period between the world wars, both Germany and Italy succumbed to authoritarian rule. In Germany, totalitarianism gained popularity in the form of the National…

kids.britannica.com

During the period between the world wars, both Germany and Italy succumbed to authoritarian rule. In Germany, totalitarianism gained popularity in the form of the National Socialist German Workers’ party, otherwise known as the Nazis. Headed by an Austrian named Adolf Hitler, the Nazis manipulated German discontent with post–World War I conditions to promote a nationalist and anti-Semitic agenda that ultimately led to World War II and the Holocaust. (See also fascism.)

Define fascism: Fascism - Wikipedia

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."[27] Each group described as "fascist" has at least some unique elements, and frequently definitions of "fascism" have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow.[28] According to many scholars, fascists—especially when they're in power—have historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[29] (As compared to other forms like Democracy)
...

Historian Stanley G. Payne's definition is frequently cited as standard by notable scholars,[30] such as Roger Griffin,[31] Randall Schweller,[32] Bo Rothstein,[33] Federico Finchelstein,[34] and Stephen D. Shenfield,[35] [36] His definition of "fascism" focuses on three concepts:

1. "Fascist negations" – anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism.
2. "Fascist goals" – the creation of a nationalist dictatorship to regulate economic structure and to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, and the expansion of the nation into an empire.

And yet the 20th century postwar church has essentially signed onto the postwar liberal consensus which says that to be a 'Good' society, you must fully oppose Fascism, any other form of "authoritarianism" for that matter..

seems reasonable

And yet, in postwar America, we've basically redefined Good and Evil around either the acceptance or rejection of Fascism.

How so?

We reject the authoritarian models of communism, and fascism. We argue instead that all men have a sinful nature so then to recognize it is to reject authoritarian systems of man.

In the year 2024, the fruits of this postwar moral framework are now laid out plainly for all to see. As just one example, we generally aren't even permitted to recognize the difference between boys and girls anymore. It's a disaster.

That is the authoritarian model of the left - it is not Christianity. The Bible still reads the same.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

First let me say, despite the provocative title, that I am *not* pro-Fascism any more than I am pro-Liberalism or pro-Communism.

But I am beginning to recognize a big problem with the post-WW2 church. The problem is that Sin and evil became equated with fascism, or non-Liberalism.

But Fascism is not anymore inherently evil and Liberalism or Communism. All of these secular ideologies have their own propensities towards evil. There exist good people and evil people in all of them.

And yet the 20th century postwar church has essentially signed onto the postwar liberal consensus which says that to be a 'Good' society, you must fully oppose Fascism, any other form of "authoritarianism" for that matter.. (implicitly embracing Antifascism and 'Open Society'-style Liberalism) This is what we refer to as "The Free World"

So what's the problem with calling Fascism evil? Well... for starters, is there any scripture that supports that? If you find me one verse that implies Fascism is sinful, I can find you ten verses that show how Liberalism is sinful...

And yet, in postwar America, we've basically redefined Good and Evil around either the acceptance or rejection of Fascism.

Before the post-WW2 liberal consensus, it was the SECULAR world that was viewed as sinful and fallen.
After the post-WW2 liberal consensus, this 'program' was essentially replaced, and instead it became FASCISM (and RACISM) that was the greatest evil.

So as long as you're not a FASCIST, you're good.

Likewise, as long as you're not a RACIST, you're good. Racism and anti-Racism works the same way as Facism. That is to say, Sin and Evil became equated with Racism. Racism was redefined as one of the greatest evils. You could be a lying adulterous homosexual thief and still find grace in the Christian community... however, if you lived as a saint but were found to have made a "racist" comment ten years ago, you would be excommunicated as an untouchable.

Things like Fascism and Racism became a kind of "Super-Evil" or "Super-Sin", and subsequently all the 'normal' sins...(you know the ones that Jesus and apostles were always talking about), were downgraded to just being a product of the fallen sinful world... People are fallen and that's just something we have to live with.



To try and sum this up... the post-WW2 church has aligned itself with a secular framework of Good and Evil, a moral framework which sometimes runs parallel with scripture, and sometimes not.

In the year 2024, the fruits of this postwar moral framework are now laid out plainly for all to see. As just one example, we generally aren't even permitted to recognize the difference between boys and girls anymore. It's a disaster.


To use another example that's been in talked about lately... in regards to the postwar "Open Society".... The government flying tens of thousands of Haitians into small-town America, completely overwhelming the resources of the people who live there. From a biblical perspective, one could argue that this is a great evil inflicted upon your neighbors, forcing a town that already has lots of issues with poverty, drugs, crime, etc. and dropping a massive influx of foreigners upon them....

BUT, in the postwar liberal moral order, this is a great GOOD because that town is becoming more 'open' and diverse... the more that you replace the native small-town population with people from other parts of the world, the faster that town will become 'non-racist'. Because in the postwar consensus, any community that wants to preserve itself, whether ethnically or culturally, is expressing some form of FASCISM, which is the greatest evil...

The church was supposed to stand up for their neighbors, and instead it sacrificed them in the promotion of the Open Society.


Likewise, if you reject homosexuality or transgenderism, or feminism too strongly, then you are showing signs of Authoritarianism and Fascism... the greatest Evil!

For the last 70 years, the church has tried to keep its head down and not think about these things too much... ("Just preach the Gospel!") ... But now those chickens are coming home to roost.

Fathers are looking around and seeing that their young daughters are not going to have anything close to the communal safety that they had growing up.

Was it really that loving to allow the nation to undergo such a transformation? Just so you wouldn't be accused of being a "nazi" or a "racist" or homophobe, or sexist, or bigot or whatever...

Instead of letting the secular world dictate the terms of morality, the church should finally return to a Biblical framework of what is sin, and what is good and evil.

Saying Fascism is not evil is like saying the Earth is flat.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

But Fascism is not anymore inherently evil and Liberalism or Communism. All of these secular ideologies have their own propensities towards evil. There exist good people and evil people in all of them.

The only one who is good, so says Christ the Lord, is God alone.

 

[lifepsyop]

Saying Fascism is not evil is like saying the Earth is flat.

Well for every evil from Fascism, I could give you an evil from Liberalism, so what's your point really?

My goodness, take a look at your present-day liberal democracies. It's a horror show.

 

[lifepsyop]

We reject the authoritarian models of communism, and fascism. We argue instead that all men have a sinful nature so then to recognize it is to reject authoritarian systems of man.

yea but that's not any kind of commandment or instruction that comes from Christianity. it's just classical Lockean liberalism.

the apostles of Jesus always instructed to honor the authority of the king or emperor.

 

[lifepsyop]

Do you actually mean to characterize the entire body of Christ that way?

basically yes, I think the average western Christian at least subconsciously believes that World War 2 was a battle of ultimate good versus evil, and so the average western Christian has thus in some significant measure syncretized Christianity with the secular moral framework of the victorious post-war liberal order.
(edit: I am referring specifically to western Christians)

 

[lifepsyop]

Are you familiar with the works of Cornelius Van Til, Francis Schaeffer, Lesslie Newbigin, Nancy Pearcey, or Carl Truesdale? How about Dominionism, Theonomy, and/or Christian Reconstructionism? Are you familiar with any of these?

Are you a Dispensational Premillennialist? Do you know why I ask that question?

well, the creation of the modern Israel in 1948 is very significant to Christians believing that that the Allied victory in WW2 was a divine dispensation from God to fulfill Premillennialist prophecy... this seems to mesh nicely with the belief in America as a kind of sacred vehicle for bringing about the "Free World" on the earth...

It's funny because the post-WW2 liberal order is a kind of secular eschatology. They famously called late 20th century Liberal Democracy "The End of History"

I used to be a Premillennialist, but I don't want to derail the thread with eschatology.

 

[lifepsyop]

Would you agree the same statement could be made about monarchies, democracies, and representative republics?

To a point... yes.. I think the Bible teaches that hierarchical order in society is essential, with clear distinctions between good and evil.

Monarchy is probably ideal, but of course can go just as evil as any other political system.

liberal democracy, or a nation founded on the idea of individual liberty, may initially begin Good (because the people that first ushered in liberalism are themselves still 'running on the software' of the pre-liberal ethos),
but as we have clearly seen, has a strong tendency towards social atomization and the breakdown of all hierarchy (e.g. the disordered belief that promoting traditional gender roles is tyranny against a trans person's personal liberty)

it's ironic too, in the nation that worships individual liberty, people are a hundred times more regulated and controlled now than ever in history.

 

[Josheb]

basically yes, I think the average western Christian at least subconsciously believes that World War 2 was a battle of ultimate good versus evil, and so the average western Christian has thus in some significant measure syncretized Christianity with the secular moral framework of the victorious post-war liberal order.
(edit: I am referring specifically to western Christians)

Then say "the average western Christian," (and don't indict all of Christendom.

I also recommend you provide some evidence for claims made anyone, especially if the claims are made about a large group of people, and all the more so when that group is the Church.* Otherwise, two immediate (self-indicting) problems arise. The first is that of the baseless accusation (derisive claims posted without evidence), and the second is that of demonic of fleshly influence. As I am sure you know, the accuser of the brethren is not to be emulated and those who unjustly divide the Church are called "devils." Similarly, any logical fallacy can only be a work of the flesh. Having only an appearance of reason, such things are not something to be considered as having their origin in the Spirit. God does not teach His people to argue fallaciously.

So don't be that guy .

I am confident most (Christians) in the west will say the Soviet and Chinese Communists of WW@ were not "good." I'm equally confident conservatives will question many of the decisions made by Roosevelt. I have my doubt that any Christian who has any knowledge of war thinks war itself is wholly good. It's doubtful war would have ever existed had Adam not eaten the forbidden kiwi . You might, therefore, consider qualifying and amending the op before the thread gets too long.





* Note so my posts are better understood: I generally use a Capital "C" when using the word "Church" to designate the ecclesia, the body of Christ, and a little "c" church" to designate a local congregation or building. Capital "C" Church would also be used when discussing a denomination, such as the "Roman Catholic Church," or the "Presbyterian Church," even though I do not think God is a respecter of denominations.
.

 

[Josheb]

well, the creation of the modern Israel in 1948 is very significant to Christians believing that that the Allied victory in WW2 was a divine dispensation from God to fulfill Premillennialist prophecy...

I am glad you acknowledged that.

However, most Christians are not Dispensationalist. Dispensational Premillennialism (DP) is a very popular and seemingly ubiquitous theology, but it is not the majority view. I, for one, don't think modern Israel has anything to do with any Christian doctrine, eschatological or otherwise, and most of the congregations in which I have fellowshipped over the last 30 years teach similarly. If you've ever seen the chart by Rose Publishing comparing end times views then you know it is only DPism that think Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology. They are the minority pov, not the orthodox, historical, or majority one.

this seems to mesh nicely with the belief in America as a kind of sacred vehicle for bringing about the "Free World" on the earth...

Check the publication date of your source.

It's funny because the post-WW2 liberal order is a kind of secular eschatology. They famously called late 20th century Liberal Democracy "The End of History."

Yes, there is a parallel apocalypticism in the secular world. The world is going to end because of the hole in the ozone layer, population explosion, global warming, climate change, conservativism, religion, Trump, etc. It's just as foolish as DPism. Bertrand Russell once argued freeing the world of religion would free the world of fear. It's been a century since he wrote that and much has been done to rid the world of religion. The world is now more fearful, anxious, and neurotic. In the US, at least, an hour of television will prove it.

I used to be a Premillennialist, but I don't want to derail the thread with eschatology.

I'll assume that also means you're not Dispensationalist. I don't want to digress too far afield fo the op, either, but the fact is there is a large swath of Christendom that does view the world in completely different ways than the majority. They are not representative of the whole.

Most Christians in the body of Christ understand our citizenship is in heaven, not the world, and our responsibility here on this side of the grave is informed by our duty to God, not a country, a political system, or any other worldly condition.

 

[Josheb]

To a point... yes.. I think the Bible teaches that hierarchical order in society is essential, with clear distinctions between good and evil.

Monarchy is probably ideal, but of course can go just as evil as any other political system.

liberal democracy, or a nation founded on the idea of individual liberty, may initially begin Good (because the people that first ushered in liberalism are themselves still 'running on the software' of the pre-liberal ethos),
but as we have clearly seen, has a strong tendency towards social atomization and the breakdown of all hierarchy (e.g. the disordered belief that promoting traditional gender roles is tyranny against a trans person's personal liberty)

it's ironic too, in the nation that worships individual liberty, people are a hundred times more regulated and controlled now than ever in history.

Do you know what the type of governance/government God established in scripture is called?

 

[Josheb]

well, the creation of the modern Israel in 1948 is very significant to Christians believing that that the Allied victory in WW2 was a divine dispensation from God to fulfill Premillennialist prophecy... this seems to mesh nicely with the belief in America as a kind of sacred vehicle for bringing about the "Free World" on the earth...

It's funny because the post-WW2 liberal order is a kind of secular eschatology. They famously called late 20th century Liberal Democracy "The End of History"

I used to be a Premillennialist, but I don't want to derail the thread with eschatology.

How about the authors I listed? How about the theological orientations? Have any of either been read?


Are you familiar with the works of Cornelius Van Til, Francis Schaeffer, Lesslie Newbigin, Nancy Pearcey, or Carl Truesdale? How about Dominionism, Theonomy, and/or Christian Reconstructionism? Are you familiar with any of these?

 

[lifepsyop]

However, most Christians are not Dispensationalist. Dispensational Premillennialism (DP) is a very popular and seemingly ubiquitous theology, but it is not the majority view. I, for one, don't think modern Israel has anything to do with any Christian doctrine, eschatological or otherwise, and most of the congregations in which I have fellowshipped over the last 30 years teach similarly. If you've ever seen the chart by Rose Publishing comparing end times views then you know it is only DPism that think Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology. They are the minority pov, not the orthodox, historical, or majority one.

this is an interesting point to me. because I do think modern Christians, (even the ones that reject the popular notion of DP that you are referring to) *do* nevertheless hold a kind of 'subsconsious' dispensationalism... they might not use that term, but if you listen to the way they talk, both progressives and conservatives, they do view this thing called "Liberty" that originated in the Enlightenment and formally inaugurated with the Declaration of Independence... as a sacred gift from God. Modern Liberty has been sanctified... (heck we have towering metal idols all over the place venerating it.)

likewise, the way they talk about America as the originator and guardian of the "Free World" in the 20th century, almost as a kind of Millenial Reign, (this is a kind of development of the Scientific-Utopianism that ascended in the 19th century also... people believed they were going to end all war and poverty.... and then topple all of the old kingdoms and spread sacred democracy all over the world)

almost like, subconsiously they align the American Revolution and the inauguration of "Liberty", with the ushering in of the "age of the Holy Spirit"

"The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending, a contemplative utopia.[2] The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it."

Joachim of Fiore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Josheb]

this is an interesting point to me. because I do think modern Christians, (even the ones that reject the popular notion of DP that you are referring to) *do* nevertheless hold a kind of 'subsconsious' dispensationalism... they might not use that term, but if you listen to the way they talk, both progressives and conservatives, they do view this thing called "Liberty" that originated in the Enlightenment and formally inaugurated with the Declaration of Independence... as a sacred gift from God. Modern Liberty has been sanctified... (heck we have towering metal idols all over the place venerating it.)

likewise, the way they talk about America as the originator and guardian of the "Free World" in the 20th century, almost as a kind of Millenial Reign, (this is a kind of development of the Scientific-Utopianism that ascended in the 19th century also... people believed they were going to end all war and poverty.... and then topple all of the old kingdoms and spread sacred democracy all over the world)

almost like, subconsiously they align the American Revolution and the inauguration of "Liberty", with the ushering in of the "age of the Holy Spirit"

"The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending, a contemplative utopia.[2] The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it."

Joachim of Fiore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'll happily discuss this with you once the still-outstanding, unanswered question about the authors and theologies I mentioned is answered. I've added another specific just to get it out of the way because it's likely to prove germane.


Are you familiar with the works of Cornelius Van Til, Francis Schaeffer, Lesslie Newbigin, Nancy Pearcey, or Carl Truesdale? How about Dominionism, Theonomy, and/or Christian Reconstructionism? How about the Restoration Movement of the 19th century? Are you familiar with any of these?

And.....

Do you know what form of governance God established in scripture?

.
.

 

[lifepsyop]

Are you familiar with the works of Cornelius Van Til, Francis Schaeffer, Lesslie Newbigin, Nancy Pearcey, or Carl Truesdale? How about Dominionism, Theonomy, and/or Christian Reconstructionism? How about the Restoration Movement of the 19th century? Are you familiar with any of these?

The authors, besides Schaeffer, no. The subjects, yes.

Do you know what form of governance God established in scripture?

Monarchy, generally. Or at the least, something very hierarchical, reflecting a top-down order of right and wrong.
A bottom-up, "will of the people" approach, not so much.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It's so good to see the post war liberal worldview being critiqued and questioned by Christians.

It seems to me alot of us who used to want to be part of the liberal world order have seen the contradictions between it and Christianity and as it became less Christian there's little reason to actually value things like democracy, complete individual liberty as a Christian.

It's going to take a lot of time to actually change most Christians minds but considering how verboten criticizing the established regime was only 10 years ago, it's a change in the right direction.