Fascinating article on toll houses

[ArmyMatt]

ok sure

indeed. quoting almost no Scripture, even less from the Fathers (if at all), and zeroing in on the one anti-toll house whipping boy (i.e. St Theodora's vision) at the expense of everything else written is pretty weak and sloppy.

and trying to point out you find the toll houses in gnostic writings as some reason to dismiss it is just as foolish as when atheists try to point out resurrection and virgin births in pagan Egyptian myths or a final judgment in Zoroastrianism as reason to discredit Christianity.

 

[Andrei D]

This is fascinating.

Of course, I am quite illiterate in this and I must confess I just have it as tradition and like the "it is known" from Game of Thrones... but it is such a core identity thing that I am a little shaken.

However, I never paid too much attention to the detailed elements (number of tolls, what happens there exactly and so forth) because regardless anything these details are NOT dogma. The "20 categories" of deeds are generally accepted, but the exact formalism of the "tolls" is not, correct me if I'm wrong, dogmatic teaching of the Church.

So I am going to ask three questions, and please do not misinterpret them, because I really want to know. Also, I don't necessarily want to know if there is or there is not an obscure mention in the Patericon or in the writings of one saint or another, but what the Church teaches as if it were to a catechumen.

Does the Orthodox Church doubt / debate that at the moment of death the soul is separated from the body and commences a mysterious journey in which angelic forces help and demonic forces attempt to hinder its rising towards the heavens?

Does the Orthodox Church debate / doubt that good deeds and bad deed are assessed in a "personal / individual" judgment that follows for / at 40 days after the separation of the soul?

Does the Orthodox church believe that prayers and commemoration services (especially 3 day, 7 day, 40 day) can help the soul on this journey and with the individual judgment?

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. no doubt yes, but you cannot take anything eschatological in a strictly literal sense.

2. yes and no. yes, in that the good and bad deeds are assessed on a personal level as the particular judgment. but not over 40 days as we experience it here, since the departed soul is past our timeline.

3. yes, but see above.

 

[MariaJLM]

I hate the tollhouse debates so I'm not trying to start anything here by saying this, but I do find it sort of suspect that I did not hear about tollhouses until I became active in online Orthodoxy groups. All that time spent in my parish and in catechumen classes before that and nothing ever came up. If it was truly a universal and crucial teaching in Orthodoxy then I think it would be important to include in any catechism that is occurring.

(I, myself, don't really take a stance on the issue beyond the fact a literal interpretation is rather absurd.)

 

[Platina]

Looks like DBH got bored and needed something to get his name out there again. There's nothing new, interesting, or necessary in this article. Same old arguments rehashed, that will appeal only to those who already want to disbelieve the toll houses.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I hate the tollhouse debates so I'm not trying to start anything here by saying this, but I do find it sort of suspect that I did not hear about tollhouses until I became active in online Orthodoxy groups. All that time spent in my parish and in catechumen classes before that and nothing ever came up. If it was truly a universal and crucial teaching in Orthodoxy then I think it would be important to include in any catechism that is occurring.

(I, myself, don't really take a stance on the issue beyond the fact a literal interpretation is rather absurd.)

the priest who catechized me was a firm believer in the toll houses, but never mentioned them in catechism. as a priest, in the times I have spoken to inquirers and catechumens, I really have not gone into great detail about it precisely because it can cause scandal. it's heavy, sobering stuff.

 

[~Anastasia~]

the priest who catechized me was a firm believer in the toll houses, but never mentioned them in catechism. as a priest, in the times I have spoken to inquirers and catechumens, I really have not gone into great detail about it precisely because it can cause scandal. it's heavy, sobering stuff.

Completely agree. Our priest agrees that souls encounter testing and/or temptation by demons after death. But he explicitly did NOT want me concerned with toll houses as an inquirer/catechumen. He never teaches on them (but will answer if asked - and that very briefly and mostly to the effect that they are not literal). I was surprised to find them in the Liturgy (I think hymns during Orthros iirc).

Seeing all the silly stuff that happens online and reading Theodora, I understand why it scandalizes and confuses people. Having read Fr. Seraphim Rose, it's pretty clearly laid out how to understand them in a mostly metaphorical sense.

I think people NEED to understand that demons can attempt to delay/disturb/tempt them at the moment of death. What concerns me is how that experience would have affected me if I had died with the expectation I received as a Protestant. It would have been beyond terrifying. I want SO MUCH for people who have no idea about this to know it, in order to be prepared.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Completely agree. Our priest agrees that souls encounter testing and/or temptation by demons after death. But he explicitly did NOT want me concerned with toll houses as an inquirer/catechumen. He never teaches on them (but will answer if asked - and that very briefly and mostly to the effect that they are not literal). I was surprised to find them in the Liturgy (I think hymns during Orthros iirc).

Seeing all the silly stuff that happens online and reading Theodora, I understand why it scandalizes and confuses people. Having read Fr. Seraphim Rose, it's pretty clearly laid out how to understand them in a mostly metaphorical sense.

I think people NEED to understand that demons can attempt to delay/disturb/tempt them at the moment of death. What concerns me is how that experience would have affected me if I had died with the expectation I received as a Protestant. It would have been beyond terrifying. I want SO MUCH for people who have no idea about this to know it, in order to be prepared.

yeah, it seems to be the one vision that the anti-toll house crowd obsesses over, typically neglecting everything else, and reading it the one way everyone who affirms the toll houses says not to read it.

 

[archer75]

yeah, it seems to be the one vision that the anti-toll house crowd obsesses over, typically neglecting everything else, and reading it the one way everyone who affirms the toll houses says not to read it.

Why is this such a stressful topic?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why is this such a stressful topic?

it's what happens when "intellectuals" think they know more than the Fathers.

because I don't stress about this topic. I do, as a priest, feel like I should chime in when something like the article is posted, which is poorly written.

 

[-Sasha-]

I sort of get the impression that many people in modernity (Christian or not, Orthodox or other) think it's "silly", or childish, or outdated to believe in actual demons.

 

[Phronema]

I sort of get the impression that many people in modernity (Christian or not, Orthodox or other) think it's "silly", or childish, or outdated to believe in actual demons.

Agreed. It doesn't seem so far fetched though since we're told of the Archangels, Cherubim, and Seraphim. That said I can easily see how a non-Christian person wouldn't believe it.

 

[Not David]

I sort of get the impression that many people in modernity (Christian or not, Orthodox or other) think it's "silly", or childish, or outdated to believe in actual demons.

Part of the "Enlightenment" mentality.

 

[archer75]

Seems odd to affirm that God became incarnate and pray to one's guardian angel --and then be worried about admitting the existence of demons.

 

[KernelPanic]

Apparently your soul can't be saved on Mondays.