False Testimony on Todd Bentley’s Website

[irenemcg]

I agree.

What he claims in his site is that he instructed his staff to remove articles that are causing strife. But at least in the instance of the Emma teaching, we know this is not the case. The article wasn't removed, it was doctored.

I have a website and from time to time I might change an articles wording, seldom but it does happen

 

[Simon Peter]

But why leave the stuff about angels at all and just remove the name of the angel? Why defend himself in one paragraph as to angelic visitation, but then remove the name of the angel when people question him about it?

Why is he unapologetic about it and yet still removes it?

This is classic Kansas City Prophets (now IHOP). They'd say one thing and do another; and doctoring teachings and tapes was - allegedly - business as usual for them...

 

[Simon Peter]

I have a website and from time to time I might change an articles wording, seldom but it does happen

Editing is not what we are talking about here.

This is a very public ministry that has a hugely controversial teaching that I and many others have linked to.

This is more like the New York Times being accused of slander/libel, and instead of confessing and apologising, the NYT went back and rewrote what was said. This has all the appearances of dishonest behavior.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Especially since Todd is into "Contemplative meditation"..Which he got from a vision once..He was taken in vision supposedly by God to see an old supposed saint called Sindhur Singh (sp)...He mixed Hindu meditation with Christianity..Todd has (as well as the KC bunch) buzzwords like "soaking" etc that I believe are birthed by this demon Emma..

From what I understand the whole thing happened with Bob Jones who was visited in a dream/vision by a 19th cent Hindu Guru . . . who laid hands on him and told him to bring this anointing into the church . . . I guess he was really open about it . . . what is particularly interesting is that the manifestations that we see here (lakeland and toronto etc) are identical to Kundalini practices when the guru's impart Shaktipat . . .

 

[Watchman4hm]

From what I understand the whole thing happened with Bob Jones who was visited in a dream/vision by a 19th cent Hindu Guru . . . who laid hands on him and told him to bring this anointing into the church . . . I guess he was really open about it . . . what is particularly interesting is that the manifestations that we see here (lakeland and toronto etc) are identical to Kundalini practices when the guru's impart Shaktipat . . .

Heres a link for reading..

Below is another about Sundar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu_Sundar_Singh

In the above article here is what Sundar believes..
Universalism

Sundar Singh was a Christian universalist; he believed that all people would, eventually, attain salvation. Writing in 1925 he argued:

If the Divine spark in the soul cannot be destroyed, then we need despair of no sinner... Since God created men to have fellowship with Himself, they cannot for ever be separated from Him... After long wandering, and by devious paths, sinful man will at last return to Him in whose Image he was created; for this is his final destiny.[5]
​

In 1929, before his final mission, he was asked about the doctrine of eternal punishment by some theology students in Calcutta. He said that "There was punishment, but it was not eternal," and that "Everyone after this life would be given a fair chance of making good, and attaining to the measure of fullness the soul was capable of. This might sometimes take ages."[5]

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes. Exactly. I'm not comfortable saying that they take pleasure in wickedness. I don't know if they even SEE wickedness.

I think it's about deception. I think somethings, especially in the last days, will have a lovely veneer of being of God. But they will be filled not with the things of God but of mysticism mixed in with the Word. That's wrong.



Thank you! I think that's what I meant what you said is much simpler though

You know what the problem is though . . . the Bible is quite clear that the deception is their own fault . . . it is not that they have been ignorantly decieved . . . it is that God gives them over to their own desires.

There is a selfish hunger within them that leads them away . . . but it is their own.

God is merciful . . . and He will keep some inspite of this . . . but let us be honest . . . they are not without fault in the deception . . . they still bear some of the burden of responsibility.

And lets all be clear . . . we ALL love wickedness . . . hence Christ HAVING to die for us . . . it is only by His sovereign grace that we desire Him and not wickedness . . . yet we all struggle with the dual pulls of the old man and the new within. I desire wickedness . . . but is my desire for the joy of God Himself greater than the desire for wickedness . . . will I be sated with Him who is greater . . . or temporal things that are lesser?



I am done . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Heres a link for reading..

Interesting . . . but the dude could have been a Christian . . . as Punjabi is not a religion.

What I am speaking of is something older . . . something with Jones where he was visited by a dead hindu guy.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I meant to add:

I looked into this deception issue, and believe there's only one way to avoid deception of this sort. We must assess Christian leadership according to two criteria:

1. Sound Doctrine

2. Good Character

If they pass these two tests you can feel ssafe about their ministry. If they fail even one of them, keep well away.

Todd Bentley blatently fails the sound doctrine test.

The problem is that most Christians are assessing a ministry by its size, how many people are saved, number of miracles. In other words, it's apparent success!

Amen . . . but we must add a third

The consensus of the governing body.

Hence 1 Cor 14 "and let the others weigh what is said" . . . there is something to be said about a high ecclesiology which sees the church as one of God's ordained means of governance (I am not espousing a church run government, but the rightful authority given to the Body of Christ . . . like taking the gates of Hades and proclaiming to the hordes of hell the purpose of God). There is much to be said for sound consensus as the Spirit brings such in a meeting.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

At the risk of being called gullible and worse, let me try to explain why this doesn't really get me too worked up...

First, I don't know when or why this article was edited. I took some time and did some research at the Internet Wayback Machine to look at previous versions of the website and article. You can do this yourself also at http://web.archive.org. From what I can tell, the article has also been shortened drastically from its original posting.

Second, I pulled the article from an older version of the site into my text editor and did a text comparison, line by line, one sentence at a time.

From what remains on the website today, (62 sentences in the original posting), there are 12 sentences that have been edited and another 13 that have been completely removed. Far more than just what was in the OP is edited, if you really take the time to compare the previous article with the one that is there today.

However, in a side-by-side reading of each posting, the message has not changed. What has been removed in these edits and deletions are references to the name "Emma" and/or any reference to the fact that this was a female angel.

I'm only speculating since I obviously have no firsthad information, but I sincerely doubt that the focus of that article was ever intended to be Emma or female angels, which may well be the reason for the edits, since the Internet has gone into a tizzy with the number of people all worked up about female angels and "Emma".

That said, it does indeed appear dishonest and/or deceptive to take an article that has been available for 5 years and edit it with no explanation, particularly since one of the edits is a quote of what God said to Bentley. If my above speculation has any merit at all, then certainly the Fresh Fire website could have handled it better.

So, that brings me back to the old saying "eat the hay and leave the sticks". Since, contrary to popular belief, I've never seen Bentley as anything more than an imperfect vessel being used of God, this doesn't really throw me. Some of the things I've heard from Bentley are right on the money. Other things are kinda out in la la land. And so, instead of tossing the baby out with the bathwater, I try to eat the hay and leave the sticks, a lot like I do with many posters here on CF...

Anyway, let the cries of "gullibility" and "blindness" commence!

I read the article before it was changed . . . and it was about angels and TB's angelology.

The references were removed to keep the heat off due to criticism . . . no whether this is wisdom to keep from causing offense . . . or a blatant coverup . . . that is the question to be answered.

 

[Watchman4hm]

Interesting . . . but the dude could have been a Christian . . . as Punjabi is not a religion.

What I am speaking of is something older . . . something with Jones where he was visited by a dead hindu guy.

Added a few more things to that last post of mine..

Heres a link to Jones and Sundar..HERE

 

[PETE_]

Seems to me if you preface something with "the Lord said/answered", there should be no need to edit to take the heat off.

 

[Father Rick]

As to the sex of angels...

In scripture, angels are always referred to in the masculine tense/gender except for Zechariah 5:9 which specifically describes 2 "women with wings" who were messengers from God (aka. angels).

So... a female angel is clearly scriptural... as is a male angel...



...discuss amongst yourself...

 

[Watchman4hm]

As to the sex of angels...

In scripture, angels are always referred to in the masculine tense/gender except for Zechariah 5:9 which specifically describes 2 "women with wings" who were messengers from God (aka. angels).

So... a female angel is clearly scriptural... as is a male angel...



...discuss amongst yourself...

Will do..The stork was an unclean animal to the Jews..These two women are NOT representatives of God..However they are symbolic of evil religions to be set up for Mystery Babylon.

 

[Father Rick]

Will do..The stork was an unclean animal to the Jews..These two women are NOT representatives of God..However they are symbolic of evil religions to be set up for Mystery Babylon.

Uhhhh.... you may want to read the passage again. It does not say that the women are storks, only that they have wings like a stork.

And they were acting at God's command/executing God's judgement... scripture specifically records God saying, "I will send it out..."

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

1 I looked again--and there before me was a flying scroll! 2 He asked me, "What do you see?" I answered, "I see a flying scroll, thirty feet long and fifteen feet wide." 3 And he said to me, "This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. 4 The Lord Almighty declares, 'I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of him who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in his house and destroy it, both its timbers and its stones.'" 5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, "Look up and see what this is that is appearing." 6 I asked, "What is it?" He replied, "It is a measuring basket." And he added, "This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land." 7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! 8 He said, "This is wickedness," and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. 9 Then I looked up--and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. 10 "Where are they taking the basket?" I asked the angel who was speaking to me. 11 He replied, "To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set there in its place."
​

[/FONT]

 

[Watchman4hm]

He sends great delusion in the last days remember?.These are evil beings..God sent lying spirit's into Jeremiahs contemporaries as well, but that didnt make them Holy did it?These are the only women with wings found in the entire Bible. Women with wings are not angels. Although wings are seen in scripture as a symbol of God’s protective covering (Psalm 91:4), they are also depicted as an abominable covering (Daniel 9:27). The women with wings in Zechariah Chapter five have the wings of an unclean bird. This reveals that any covering they might represent will be an unclean spiritual covering—i.e., an unclean false religious covering (Psalm 91:4, Revelation 12:14, Zechariah 5:9, Isaiah 30:1).

 

[PETE_]

I think it adds to the idea that the two women were not angels the fact that both before and after that reference he is speaking to an angel but discribes the 2 women not as angels

 

[Watchman4hm]

Zechariah 5:5-11

This is the second of the judgment visions. God now wants us to know about the judgment of the false religions. Zechariah sees an "ephah." This was a measure that held a bit more than our bushel. This signifies something coming to the full, and being ready for judgment.

Zechariah 5:6
"... this is their resemblance through all the earth..."

The false religions are all similar in one way. They are all like this "ephah." They are all full of wickedness, and all ripe for judgment. The woman that sits in the midst of the ephah, represents the embodiment of wickedness...

Zechariah 5:7-8
"... this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. And He said, This is wickedness..."


The woman here is like the woman of the Revelation 17, 18. There she is called "Mystery Babylon." The "lead" weight upon the ephah shows the power of wickedness. Even a talent of lead (122 lbs.) used as a lid, would not hold down this woman. Evil, wickedness, and sin is abounding in our world.


This "woman" symbolizes evil in religion. In Revelation 12, and many places in the Old Testament, the "woman" represents Israel, especially when the nation is in sin. Often, the Bible uses the "woman" to be symbolic of wickedness.


Matthew 13:33
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."


Revelation 2:20
"I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce..."


Revelation 17:1-7
"...Come hither, and I will shew thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters... I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast... upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."

Two women carry this ephah containing the woman to "Shinar". There, they will build a "house." These women have the "wings of a stork". The stork was considered an unclean bird (Leviticus 11:19). These two woman are symbolic of other evil religions that have deceitfully been preparing man for the final "mystery Babylonian" religion of the last days. There are many organizations now that are attacking true Christianity, and promoting many causes that are sinful. They will unite to endorse the false religions of the last days.

"New Age" is a conglomeration of most every false religious concept. They accept any idea or concept except fundamental Christianity. In the New Age religion, you can be a witch, or a warlock... be a Buddhist or a Hindu... believe in reincarnation, speak with demonic beings, use crystal balls, ouija boards, crystals, or tarot cards, etc... all these are accepted. Only if you say, 'There is one way to heaven, and it leads by the atoning work on the cross by Christ Jesus'... will you be rejected by this New Age religion.

The capital of this false religion will be the recently rebuilt city of Babylon in the ancient land of Shinar (now Iraq). This is also the capital of the Antichrist during part of the tribulation. This Antichrist will be a ruler of the Syria/Iraq area. Damascus (capital of Syria) will be seriously damaged in the initial war of the tribulation (Zechariah 9:1). Baghdad, capital of Iraq, was tremendously damaged in the Desert Storm war. The city of Babylon is sitting and simply awaiting someone to decide to make it the new capital. The Bible seems to indicate a soon coming merger, or joining, of Syria and Iraq. This city of Babylon will play a big part in the last days events.

For the first half of the tribulation, the Antichrist will reign from Babylon. Midway through the tribulation, it will be destroyed (Revelation 14:8). The Antichrist will move his capital to Jerusalem. The religions that merge and put their headquarters in Babylon will be tolerated, for a time, by the Antichrist, for they will see him as a messiah figure. The Antichrist is not the supreme ruler of this religion. Not until midway through the tribulation will the false prophet have the audacity to demand that all worship the Antichrist.

The revived Judaism in Jerusalem will also see him as the messiah for the first half of the tribulation. Midway in the tribulation, the persecution of the mystery Babylon against the Jews will spark a war and the city of Babylon will be destroyed. The false prophet steps up his promotion of the Antichrist and places an idol within the temple in Jerusalem and seeks to have all worship the Antichrist as a god.

 

[NewSong]

I forgot to post sources.

Two independent un-doctored sources:

http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

Todd Bentley’s website with its recently doctored version:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954


Deba,

Can you provide a link to this article you are talking about? I must have missed it.

Thanks

I am a friendly with the one individual with the website. We used to have linked websites until I tore down my website. We don't always see eye to eye but we confide in one another and I am sure this individual will leave it untampered as well. In fact, I am going to email the individual and see what is said.

Interestingly enough that happens a lot. I asked about it with another ministry and staff members took the blame for printing and publishing something without the person who supposedly said it reviewing it. When reviewed by the individual who supposedly said it, it was edited because it did not reflect what was said.

As for me and my opinion, I am not biting int any of this stuff. I am holding out for GOD and what my brother indicated to me through a statement made in his church. Pray for our own personal revival.

ADDENDUM:

Never mind the above statement. I just reviewed the individuals website and all of that stuff changed too! Something is really wrong there as well. She changed her statements herself. ARGH!

 

[Lulav]

Will do..The stork was an unclean animal to the Jews..These two women are NOT representatives of God..However they are symbolic of evil religions to be set up for Mystery Babylon.

He sends great delusion in the last days remember?.These are evil beings..God sent lying spirit's into Jeremiahs contemporaries as well, but that didnt make them Holy did it?These are the only women with wings found in the entire Bible. Women with wings are not angels. Although wings are seen in scripture as a symbol of God’s protective covering (Psalm 91:4), they are also depicted as an abominable covering (Daniel 9:27). The women with wings in Zechariah Chapter five have the wings of an unclean bird. This reveals that any covering they might represent will be an unclean spiritual covering—i.e., an unclean false religious covering (Psalm 91:4, Revelation 12:14, Zechariah 5:9, Isaiah 30:1).

I think it adds to the idea that the two women were not angels the fact that both before and after that reference he is speaking to an angel but discribes the 2 women not as angels

Zechariah 5:5-11

This is the second of the judgment visions. God now wants us to know about the judgment of the false religions. Zechariah sees an "ephah." This was a measure that held a bit more than our bushel. This signifies something coming to the full, and being ready for judgment.

Zechariah 5:6
"... this is their resemblance through all the earth..."

The false religions are all similar in one way. They are all like this "ephah." They are all full of wickedness, and all ripe for judgment. The woman that sits in the midst of the ephah, represents the embodiment of wickedness...

Zechariah 5:7-8
"... this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. And He said, This is wickedness..."


The woman here is like the woman of the Revelation 17, 18. There she is called "Mystery Babylon." The "lead" weight upon the ephah shows the power of wickedness. Even a talent of lead (122 lbs.) used as a lid, would not hold down this woman. Evil, wickedness, and sin is abounding in our world.


This "woman" symbolizes evil in religion. In Revelation 12, and many places in the Old Testament, the "woman" represents Israel, especially when the nation is in sin. Often, the Bible uses the "woman" to be symbolic of wickedness.


Matthew 13:33
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."


Revelation 2:20
"I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce..."


Revelation 17:1-7
"...Come hither, and I will shew thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters... I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast... upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."

Two women carry this ephah containing the woman to "Shinar". There, they will build a "house." These women have the "wings of a stork". The stork was considered an unclean bird (Leviticus 11:19). These two woman are symbolic of other evil religions that have deceitfully been preparing man for the final "mystery Babylonian" religion of the last days. There are many organizations now that are attacking true Christianity, and promoting many causes that are sinful. They will unite to endorse the false religions of the last days.

"New Age" is a conglomeration of most every false religious concept. They accept any idea or concept except fundamental Christianity. In the New Age religion, you can be a witch, or a warlock... be a Buddhist or a Hindu... believe in reincarnation, speak with demonic beings, use crystal balls, ouija boards, crystals, or tarot cards, etc... all these are accepted. Only if you say, 'There is one way to heaven, and it leads by the atoning work on the cross by Christ Jesus'... will you be rejected by this New Age religion.

The capital of this false religion will be the recently rebuilt city of Babylon in the ancient land of Shinar (now Iraq). This is also the capital of the Antichrist during part of the tribulation. This Antichrist will be a ruler of the Syria/Iraq area. Damascus (capital of Syria) will be seriously damaged in the initial war of the tribulation (Zechariah 9:1). Baghdad, capital of Iraq, was tremendously damaged in the Desert Storm war. The city of Babylon is sitting and simply awaiting someone to decide to make it the new capital. The Bible seems to indicate a soon coming merger, or joining, of Syria and Iraq. This city of Babylon will play a big part in the last days events.

For the first half of the tribulation, the Antichrist will reign from Babylon. Midway through the tribulation, it will be destroyed (Revelation 14:8). The Antichrist will move his capital to Jerusalem. The religions that merge and put their headquarters in Babylon will be tolerated, for a time, by the Antichrist, for they will see him as a messiah figure. The Antichrist is not the supreme ruler of this religion. Not until midway through the tribulation will the false prophet have the audacity to demand that all worship the Antichrist.

The revived Judaism in Jerusalem will also see him as the messiah for the first half of the tribulation. Midway in the tribulation, the persecution of the mystery Babylon against the Jews will spark a war and the city of Babylon will be destroyed. The false prophet steps up his promotion of the Antichrist and places an idol within the temple in Jerusalem and seeks to have all worship the Antichrist as a god.

Looks like you have been reading too many end time novels by false prophet. Isn't the anti-christ to be worshiped As G-d? He is already and has been for thousands of years been worshiped as 'a' god.

 

[Watchman4hm]

Looks like you have been reading too many end time novels by false prophet. Isn't the anti-christ to be worshiped As G-d? He is already and has been for thousands of years been worshiped as 'a' god.

Nope. just the bible.....Try it with prayer, you might have God share His plans with you more clearly than you know now