falling away

[P1LGR1M]

We have the same kind of situation in John 10:27-28:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand (ESV).

I had a person say to me at church recently that he became convinced of eternal security by accepting what John 10:28 stated - nobody could pluck believers out of the Father's hand.

Good thing you were there to squash his faith.

His faith, after all, is a little childish, isn't it? I mean, poor fellow, he just have the proper education to see that the Lord does not actually mean that He gives eternal life, or that those He gives eternal life to will never perish, or that it is possible for someone to snatch them from His hand...

The Lord means what He says, my friend, and we have a record of His promise to us.

However, what are the conditions for not being plucked/snatched out of the Father's hand?

Glad you asked. Let's look at the supplied verse again:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand (ESV).

It seems that the condition is receiving eternal life from Christ.

We see that here also:


John 6

King James Version (KJV)

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


The word "sealed" is the identical word found in 2 Corinthians 1:22, shall we also call this sealing into question? The word is sphragizō and is found also in Ephesians 4:30...


Ephesians 4:30

King James Version (KJV)


30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



A few more verses to consider concerning eternal life:
John 6

King James Version (KJV)

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


They are raised already having eternal life, not because they "continued."

The Lord makes that clear in this teaching.


44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


They are raised because God draws those who will receive eternal life, and He says that "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.(v.37)"


47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


We could rightfully insert a "continues to" here. Not will have, but has eternal life.


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


The "bread" in view is Christ's body, offered on the Cross. "Eating" of that bread, and "drinking of His blood" is to believe that Christ has died for us.


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The Lord makes it clear it is not a matter of continuing to eat of His flesh and drink His blood, but a matter of either you have...or you haven't. Either you have believed upon the Son of God or you haven't.

If you have not: you have no life. In other words, you have not received the Life of Christ, you are dead.

If you have...


54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


...you have eternal life, and because of this, you will participate in the resurrection unto to life, as opposed to those who do not have life, who will be subject to the Second death.

Believers are born twice and die once; unbelievers are born once and die twice.


56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Not, "If he continues I will dwell in him and he in Me," but as He promised here...

John 14:23

King James Version (KJV)


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



...we are in Him and He in us.



57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


The promises of God cannot be broken.

The words that I have highlighted in vv 27-28 are all in the Greek present tense. So the meaning is continuous action as the Greek tense emphases the KIND of action more than the time of action.

Yet this is not applied to...

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand (ESV).

What may not be considered is that there is a prophetic tense to this teaching, just as the promise of the Comforter and all that He will do is prophetic.

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand

This statement of promise cannot be tensed to mean something other than what they mean: Those who have eternal life in Christ, because they are IN Christ...will never perish.

Therefore the meaning of those 4 words in bold is: 'My sheep continue to hear my voice, and I continue to know them, and they continue to follow me. 28 I continue to give them eternal life....'

But the conclusion is in error.

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand

All that is accomplished is an unbiblical assertion that "Even though Christ gives eternal life, it is not infact eternal as He said because it can be lost. Those who have eternal life can actually perish despite the Lord's statement to the contrary. Those who have eternal life can in fact, contrary to the teaching of Christ Himself, be snatched out of His hand."

Incredible.

There is no guarantee of eternal security without continuing belief -

Eternal life is end result of saving faith, not a payment for a life of works.

continuing to hear, continuing to know, and continuing to follow.

Are we forgetting that it is God that draws man unto Christ? That it is God that gave the means that we might have faith? His word? Do we forget that it is only by the power of God alone that we are born of the Spirit?

This is the very error Paul taught against here:


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



It was foolish two millennia ago to think one is perfected by the works of the flesh, and it is still today...foolish.

What is God's guarantee for this continuing belief? God continues to give them eternal life.

Sorry, but one either has eternal life, which is life in Christ, which He came to bestow...or they do not.

If we are in Christ, we have His life, which is eternal. That is the only means by which we can have life...at all. If we do not have the Life of Christ then we have, as Christ said...NO life within us. We are still natural men, and are spiritually separated from God, and not His.

That is the biblical teaching on eternal security.

I would have to disagree.

The teaching given is in many places condemned in scripture. It denies the clear teaching of Christ.

Perseverance of the saints is necessary for sealing to be guaranteed.

The sealing of the believer is the means for perseverence.

God bless.

 

[98cwitr]

I don't believe OSAS because we sin daily and without forgiveness of those sins we can never enter heaven because no sin will be allowed there.

grandma

How was the devil present with God in the Book of Job?

 

[OzSpen]

PILGRIM,

After providing the exegesis from the biblical text, I was the one who stated:

s long as a person continues to believe that person is sealed.

So what do you have the audacity to state? "Just not a biblical statement".

Your Calvinism won't allow you to see that the exegesis of the biblical text IS a biblical statement. Yes it IS. Nothing will change that it IS.

Will you get it?

Bye, Oz

Just not a biblical statement.

The New Birth by which we are made new creations, is never seen in scripture to be a result of works, nor is it ever saidf in scripture to be undone.

This is the reason why the Spirit of God is said to be the earnest. While we are in this flesh, this unredeemed body, the only guarantee we have is the indwelling of God which was promised to them that believe.

If one is born again...they will continue to believe.

Actually it does. The indwelling of God is the very reason why a born again believer can continue to believe, and to obey God:

Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



John 16:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.





But it does:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



You can't continually be made complete...forever.


Continued...

 

[OzSpen]

PILGRIM,

Your first few sentences here do not make sense to me.

Yep, the Lord means what he says. Only those who continue in faith are sealed.

By the way, check out Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament on the meaning of the Greek of 'seal' and it will confound your view.

Bye, Oz

Good thing you were there to squash his faith.

His faith, after all, is a little childish, isn't it? I mean, poor fellow, he just have the proper education to see that the Lord does not actually mean that He gives eternal life, or that those He gives eternal life to will never perish, or that it is possible for someone to snatch them from His hand...

The Lord means what He says, my friend, and we have a record of His promise to us.

Glad you asked. Let's look at the supplied verse again:

It seems that the condition is receiving eternal life from Christ.

We see that here also:

John 6

King James Version (KJV)

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


The word "sealed" is the identical word found in 2 Corinthians 1:22, shall we also call this sealing into question? The word is sphragizō and is found also in Ephesians 4:30...


Ephesians 4:30

King James Version (KJV)


30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



A few more verses to consider concerning eternal life:
John 6

King James Version (KJV)

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


They are raised already having eternal life, not because they "continued."

The Lord makes that clear in this teaching.


44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


They are raised because God draws those who will receive eternal life, and He says that "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.(v.37)"


47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


We could rightfully insert a "continues to" here. Not will have, but has eternal life.


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


The "bread" in view is Christ's body, offered on the Cross. "Eating" of that bread, and "drinking of His blood" is to believe that Christ has died for us.


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The Lord makes it clear it is not a matter of continuing to eat of His flesh and drink His blood, but a matter of either you have...or you haven't. Either you have believed upon the Son of God or you haven't.

If you have not: you have no life. In other words, you have not received the Life of Christ, you are dead.

If you have...


54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


...you have eternal life, and because of this, you will participate in the resurrection unto to life, as opposed to those who do not have life, who will be subject to the Second death.

Believers are born twice and die once; unbelievers are born once and die twice.


56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Not, "If he continues I will dwell in him and he in Me," but as He promised here...

John 14:23

King James Version (KJV)


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



...we are in Him and He in us.



57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


The promises of God cannot be broken.






Yet this is not applied to...





What may not be considered is that there is a prophetic tense to this teaching, just as the promise of the Comforter and all that He will do is prophetic.



This statement of promise cannot be tensed to mean something other than what they mean: Those who have eternal life in Christ, because they are IN Christ...will never perish.





But the conclusion is in error.



All that is accomplished is an unbiblical assertion that "Even though Christ gives eternal life, it is not infact eternal as He said because it can be lost. Those who have eternal life can actually perish despite the Lord's statement to the contrary. Those who have eternal life can in fact, contrary to the teaching of Christ Himself, be snatched out of His hand."

Incredible.




Eternal life is end result of saving faith, not a payment for a life of works.







Are we forgetting that it is God that draws man unto Christ? That it is God that gave the means that we might have faith? His word? Do we forget that it is only by the power of God alone that we are born of the Spirit?

This is the very error Paul taught against here:


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



It was foolish two millennia ago to think one is perfected by the works of the flesh, and it is still today...foolish.






Sorry, but one either has eternal life, which is life in Christ, which He came to bestow...or they do not.

If we are in Christ, we have His life, which is eternal. That is the only means by which we can have life...at all. If we do not have the Life of Christ then we have, as Christ said...NO life within us. We are still natural men, and are spiritually separated from God, and not His.




I would have to disagree.

The teaching given is in many places condemned in scripture. It denies the clear teaching of Christ.



The sealing of the believer is the means for perseverence.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

PILGRIM,

After providing the exegesis from the biblical text, I was the one who stated:

s long as a person continues to believe that person is sealed.

So what do you have the audacity to state? "Just not a biblical statement".

When the exegesis states:

In Romans 4:11 the same word for "sealed" is used as in Eph 4:30. If this means an unbreakable and permanent seal of eternal security, then the same must apply to Rom. 4:11 - an unbreakable and permanent seal of circumcision.

...which is not entirely accurate to begin with, and overlooks this inaccuracy to then provide commentary that would not float on dry land, then, I guess I have to express a little "oddacity."

But, I did a detailed response as to why I felt this "exegesis" was inaccurate, would you have me continue?

Okay by me:


Romans 4:11

King James Version (KJV)


11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


Was the righteousness of Abraham which is credited due to his faith which circumcision is only a physical sign of...secure? Was Abraham just lucky that he didn't sin too bad after receiving the promise of God?

Is it righteousness that is in view here...or circumcision?

It does not say "that he might be the father of all them that are circumcized," does it?

Your Calvinism won't allow you to see that the exegesis of the biblical text IS a biblical statement.

Actually, I am not a Calvinist, though my doctrine would agree with certain points of Calvinism.

Trust me on this...there are a number of Calvinists that dislike me as much as you do.

And I am sorry, but the "exegesis" is in my humble opinion completely missing the point the Holy Spirit makes through Paul.

Yes it IS. Nothing will change that it IS.

It is not my goal to change it. I simply give what I feel to be the proper context with the proper subject highlighted.

Will you get it?

Bye, Oz

See ya in the next one.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

PILGRIM,

Your first few sentences here do not make sense to me.

THat is very possible, I have had a number of interuptions today, and it would not surprise me my response to your post was one of them.

Let's see, did you mean these:

Good thing you were there to squash his faith.

His faith, after all, is a little childish, isn't it? I mean, poor fellow, he just have the proper education to see that the Lord does not actually mean that He gives eternal life, or that those He gives eternal life to will never perish, or that it is possible for someone to snatch them from His hand...

Sorry, I get facetious sometimes. But I do see that those that teach loss of salvation and works-based faith have a tendency to try to convince everyone they can that the salvation of Christ cannot be trusted.

Don't take it too personally, I have a strange sense of humor.

Yep, the Lord means what he says. Only those who continue in faith are sealed.

Yep, the Lord means what he says.

But He doesn't say "Only those who continue in faith are sealed."

You said that, not the Lord. This is eisegetically inserted into the text.

By the way, check out Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament on the meaning of the Greek of 'seal' and it will confound your view.

So you admit that your view comes from a book about the bible instead of a book of the bible?

If you want to "confound my view" so badly, how about just addressing the repsonse in detail.

If you like, we can start over.

Bye, Oz

God bless.

 

[OzSpen]

Actually, I am not a Calvinist, though my doctrine would agree with certain points of Calvinism.

Trust me on this...there are a number of Calvinists that dislike me as much as you do.

Please don't give this false information. I DO NOT dislike you at all. I'm dealing with your points of theology that agree with Calvinism that are not consistent with biblical exegesis.

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

Oz

 

[P1LGR1M]

Please don't give this false information. I DO NOT dislike you at all. I'm dealing with your points of theology that agree with Calvinism that are not consistent with biblical exegesis.

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

Oz

You see...I knew you loved me Oz, which is why I guess I take the liberty to work on my sense of humor with you, lol.

God bless.

 

[OzSpen]

So you admit that your view comes from a book about the bible instead of a book of the bible?

Do you understand how foolish a statement this is? There is not one part of the Bible that tells me how to decline nouns and conjugate Greek verbs. I learned none of my initial Greek grammar from inside the Bible. It all came from teachers outside of the Bible. My very first Greek introductory text was John Wenham's, The Elements of New Testament Greek. I know others who have used Machen's text. My first Greek course was under Larry Hurtado at Regent College, Vancouver, Canada - an auspicious evangelical institution.

So, to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek vocabulary and grammar, there is no alternative but to go outside of the Bible to learn it. Of course the vocab and grammar are illustrated by biblical texts. However, to learn Greek I had no alternative but to engage in extra-biblical studies to learn the language.

How do we get to know the intricacies of Greek grammar better? Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is one very important tool for word studies. And it is very extensive. I have the 10 vols.

Don't you understand this?

Sincerely, Oz

 

[P1LGR1M]

Do you understand how foolish a statement this is? There is not one part of the Bible that tells me how to decline nouns and conjugate Greek verbs. I learned none of my initial Greek grammar from inside the Bible. It all came from teachers outside of the Bible. My very first Greek introductory text was John Wenham's, The Elements of New Testament Greek. I know others who have used Machen's text. My first Greek course was under Larry Hurtado at Regent College, Vancouver, Canada - an auspicious evangelical institution.

So, to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek vocabulary and grammar, there is no alternative but to go outside of the Bible to learn it. Of course the vocab and grammar are illustrated by biblical texts. However, to learn Greek I had no alternative but to engage in extra-biblical studies to learn the language.

How do we get to know the intricacies of Greek grammar better? Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is one very important tool for word studies. And it is very extensive. I have the 10 vols.

Don't you understand this?

Sincerely, Oz

Go back, read the posts over, Oz. You have made circumcision the object of the verse (and issue) when it is Abraham's faith that is in view.

There is not a man alive that knows the language better than Paul did. He meant what he said, and trying to tense away the believer's security based upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by saying that circumcision was not enduring just does not do justice to his statement.

See it again:


Romans 4:11

King James Version (KJV)


11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:



You are equating the sign to the internal work the sign signifies.

It is no different here:


2 Corinthians 1:22

King James Version (KJV)


22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.



We do not equate the sealing of Paul (and others) with the earnest of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Ephesians 4:30

King James Version (KJV)


30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Now let's review the verses where we see both sphragis (Romans 4:11) and sphragizō (the other verses supplied here, verb) and consider if God has given us the earnest of the Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession, and we are sealed unto the day of redemption, not redeemed if we remain sealed...

...why would we not rejoice in the certainty of our security?

Then answer how the seal of circumcision, which Paul makes clear is not the cause, but merely a sign of "the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised..."

...is the condition for the righteousness which Abraham is credited with?

No extrabiblical resource is going to reconcile this proposal.

God bless.

 

[OzSpen]

Pilgrim,

That's a red herring logical fallacy. Why didn't you address the content of my post? If you continue like this, I'll have to leave the conversation as we can't engage in reasonable conversations when you do this.

Also, please don't give me lengthy biblical quotes without exegesis. I can read the Bible. If you disagree, please learn to provide your exegetical reasons.

Otherwise, what's the point?

Oz

Go back, read the posts over, Oz. You have made circumcision the object of the verse (and issue) when it is Abraham's faith that is in view.

There is not a man alive that knows the language better than Paul did. He meant what he said, and trying to tense away the believer's security based upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by saying that circumcision was not enduring just does not do justice to his statement.

See it again:


Romans 4:11

King James Version (KJV)


11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:



You are equating the sign to the internal work the sign signifies.

It is no different here:


2 Corinthians 1:22

King James Version (KJV)


22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.



We do not equate the sealing of Paul (and others) with the earnest of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Ephesians 4:30

King James Version (KJV)


30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Now let's review the verses where we see both sphragis(Romans 4:11) and sphragizō (the other verses supplied here, verb) and consider if God has given us the earnest of the Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession, and we are sealed unto the day of redemption, not redeemed if we remain sealed...

...why would we not rejoice in the certainty of our security?

Then answer how the seal of circumcision, which Paul makes clear is not the cause, but merely a sign of "the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised..."

...is the condition for the righteousness which Abraham is credited with?

No extrabiblical resource is going to reconcile this proposal.

God bless.

 

[DeaconDean]

I don't believe OSAS because we sin daily and without forgiveness of those sins we can never enter heaven because no sin will be allowed there.

grandma

Tell me something, at what point in the parable of the prodigal son, did he cease to be his father's son?

If we are adopted, called sons, heirs to the kingdom, at what point do we cease to be sons, heirs?

At what point does sin override grace?

Peter sinned a number of times in the New Testament, when did he become unsaved, when did he lose his salvation?

Paul sinned, it is recorded in the New Testament, did Paul lose his salvation?

There is no recorded scripture that indicated repentance on either Paul or Peter's part.

So using your own logic, we therefore would be forced to conclude that Peter and Paul lost their salvayioin.

God Bless

Till all are one.