Fallen

[2PhiloVoid]

Whst are you teaching HIS SHEEP sir

That is what you should concern yourself with alone

HE will judge between the full and fat and fed sheep from the baby lambs who trail behind those fat and filled and fed sheep

Let's make sure that the fat and filled and fed sheep are feeding babies what is pure and needed and not things that are things

This response tells me that you don't quite understand my position or my intent here, miknik5. But to some extent that is ok--being human, we can't all be on the same page about everything in our faith.

2PhiloVoid

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I feel that religion offers life of righteous hardships in the name of "higher goals". Its nice and perfect.But it drains all the joy from current life, to fuel this idealistic lifestyle.

Seeing it, I guess I know why Lucifer had fallen. He couldn't bare the hardships of service to the divine goals, so he commited a spiritual suicide.

I myself am ex an believer and I feel that religion is a voluntary "mini hell" I cannot accept.

Are you really sure you were a believer? It seems odd to stop believing in the God that created you, and the salvation of your eternal soul, just because it all seems a bit too much like hard work... after all, there are probably plenty of variations on the theme that would be less onerous - some Christians here reject all organized religion, and effectively have their own personal version of Christianity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are you really sure you were a believer? It seems odd to stop believing in the God that created you, and the salvation of your eternal soul, just because it all seems a bit too much like hard work... after all, there are probably plenty of variations on the theme that would be less onerous - some Christians here reject all organized religion, and effectively have their own personal version of Christianity.

Yes, there is something to be said for "unorganized" religion.

 

[miknik5]

Yes, there is something to be said for "unorganized" religion.

But more to be said of His True Body and fellowship and strengthening and encouraging one another because of our mutual love for the Truth and one another

Especially for those babies whose faith is weak. That we the fattened and filled and fed "Giants" in Christ may encourage them to press on for that upward call in Christ unto the full measure of Christ fit for every good work which He prepared in advance that we should walk in


Especially feeding His little lambs!

 

[W2L]

But more to be said of His True Body and fellowship and strengthening and encouraging one another because of our mutual love for the Truth and one another

Net necessarily. That is true if that Church is teaching sound doctrine, and actually rebuking its own members and holding them accountable for not following that doctrine. However, if that's not the case then its no better than so called unorganized religion.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But more to be said of His True Body and fellowship and strengthening and encouraging one another because of our mutual love for the Truth and one another

miknik5---notice that I was responding to an atheist in my previous post. My response was meant to be a bit "tongue-in-cheek." Just so you know.

Yes, I agree with you that Christ's True Body is the place to be.

 

[miknik5]

Dont forsake the coming together as many will do. And especially when they see the day approaching. That is specifically when we are Not to forsake the coming together that all may be fed

 

[W2L]

Dont forsake the coming together as many will do. And especially when they see the day approaching. That is specifically when we are Not to forsake the coming together that all may be fed

Yes and woman should not preach as well.

 

[J. Elias]

You cant really persue pleasure being religious. Firstly it is a sin and secondly if you believe religion its punishable by torture. Almost all religions have hell temporary or not. By religion I mean all existing ones. They are extremely similar. Hell, heaven, saints and demons.

Well, so far as I can tell, self-deprivation of hedonistic pleasures is necessary to lead a good life, according to most religions. Discipline of the self is a trend ranging across all religions. But religion isn't the only thing that believes excessive hedonistic pleasure to be self-destructive. Ancient Greek philosophical schools such as the Epicureans and Stoics also believed that discipline of the self was the only way to find contentment in this world. The "big three" Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle all believed virtue and discipline of the self was its own reward. So I don't see how avoiding "sins" according to religions is itself a bad thing. If anything, religions ought to make people more self-restrained with their lives.

Secondly, eternal torture varies from religion to religion. Some people believe what is called annihilationism, which is the belief that God destroys the soul after death, as opposed to eternal torture. So not all religions hold to that belief, it would seem. (Although I do see the point you were driving at)

Now, speaking from a purely Christian perspective, the reason I (and those Christians that would agree with me on this) restrain myself is because I recognize the fact that I am a creature made in the image of God. As such, I desire to live a life that mirrors His nature. The whole reason He created me was to bring Him glory. So, I do so by mirroring His nature, which is what we call good.

As for sin, the reason I do not wish to sin is so that I can bring all due glory to my God, and not any form of reproach. You see, if I am an ambassador for a nation, yet I do not reflect my nation's character, beliefs, and teachings, then what sort of ambassador am I? I am no ambassador at all, I am a slanderer of my nation. It is similar with God the Father. Since God has made us in His image, He expects us to act like Him. When we do not, we sin, and essentially bring dishonor to His eternally-worthy name.

What, then, is God to do with a man that represents Him and His glory, yet misrepresents Him and only brings Him shame? Obviously, the answer is to remove us from office, so to speak. What precisely that entails is debatable, and we will never really know. But with knowing God as eternally and infinitely worthy of all glory, even what we would consider a small offense is an infinitely grave reproach against His name. And it stands to reason that, if the punishment will be just, a steep price will be paid.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, so far as I can tell, self-deprivation of hedonistic pleasures is necessary to lead a good life, according to most religions. Discipline of the self is a trend ranging across all religions. But religion isn't the only thing that believes excessive hedonistic pleasure to be self-destructive. Ancient Greek philosophical schools such as the Epicureans and Stoics also believed that discipline of the self was the only way to find contentment in this world. The "big three" Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle all believed virtue and discipline of the self was its own reward. So I don't see how avoiding "sins" according to religions is itself a bad thing. If anything, religions ought to make people more self-restrained with their lives.

Secondly, eternal torture varies from religion to religion. Some people believe what is called annihilationism, which is the belief that God destroys the soul after death, as opposed to eternal torture. So not all religions hold to that belief, it would seem. (Although I do see the point you were driving at)

Now, speaking from a purely Christian perspective, the reason I (and those Christians that would agree with me on this) restrain myself is because I recognize the fact that I am a creature made in the image of God. As such, I desire to live a life that mirrors His nature. The whole reason He created me was to bring Him glory. So, I do so by mirroring His nature, which is what we call good.

As for sin, the reason I do not wish to sin is so that I can bring all due glory to my God, and not any form of reproach. You see, if I am an ambassador for a nation, yet I do not reflect my nation's character, beliefs, and teachings, then what sort of ambassador am I? I am no ambassador at all, I am a slanderer of my nation. It is similar with God the Father. Since God has made us in His image, He expects us to act like Him. When we do not, we sin, and essentially bring dishonor to His eternally-worthy name.

What, then, is God to do with a man that represents Him and His glory, yet misrepresents Him and only brings Him shame? Obviously, the answer is to remove us from office, so to speak. What precisely that entails is debatable, and we will never really know. But with knowing God as eternally and infinitely worthy of all glory, even what we would consider a small offense is an infinitely grave reproach against His name. And it stands to reason that, if the punishment will be just, a steep price will be paid.

Hi J. Elias,

While I heartily agree with what you're saying to oioimoi, in what way does it help a person who is experiencing deep-seated loneliness or a severe lack of social affection and/or physical gratification?

[Don't take this as a rebuttal, but as a further prompt for the discussion at hand.]

2PhiloVoid

 

[ScottA]

I feel that religion offers life of righteous hardships in the name of "higher goals". Its nice and perfect.But it drains all the joy from current life, to fuel this idealistic lifestyle.

Seeing it, I guess I know why Lucifer had fallen. He couldn't bare the hardships of service to the divine goals, so he commited a spiritual suicide.

I myself am ex an believer and I feel that religion is a voluntary "mini hell" I cannot accept.

That would be what is called "a personal resolve." It doesn't change anything except the way you feel about going on under the circumstances.

But life in the world is not as you have determined. Religion is an attempt to deal with the reality of what life is really all about. Mind you, some attempts are terribly off the mark and confusing to those who are searching for the same satisfaction or resolve that we all feel a need for.

Properly identified, life in the world, is not about us finding our resolve - but rather, us finding ourselves. The frustration is by design, intended to cause a reaction...and if we go one way, we are counted among that lot, and if we go the other way, we are counted among that different lot - that different lot, being whether we have within us the seed of God.

Life then, is about dividing the wheat from the chaff.

 

[miknik5]

Yes and woman should not preach as well.

Yes But in Christ there is no longer male or female. God does not judge according to the flesh nor does He pour out His Spirit on only men.

And Pauls directive was to the church as a whole because women were calling out in the assembly and causing disorder

 

[miknik5]

Yes and woman should not preach as well.

If you can't make a right judgement about who is discussing fleshly things that is a problem with your own eyes

 

[W2L]

Yes But in Christ there is no longer male or female. God does not judge according to the flesh nor does He pour out His Spirit on only men.

And Pauls directive was to the church as a whole because women were calling out in the assembly and causing disorder

I really don't care who preaches. I don't listen to preachers anyway. This probably isn't the right forum for this discussion.

 

[W2L]

If you can't make a right judgement about who is discussing fleshly things that is a problem with your own eyes

No, I was making another point actually. Never mind though.

 

[ScottA]

Yes But in Christ there is no longer male or female. God does not judge according to the flesh nor does He pour out His Spirit on only men.

That of course is true, but we still have gender roles to perform in our service of presenting Christ (male) as Head of the church (female), as a confirmation of His word, by which through creation He has purposed to distinctly separate us for these times.

And Pauls directive was to the church as a whole because women were calling out in the assembly and causing disorder

That too is correct. Paul spoke in the spirit, referring to the church as all who would be the bride of Christ. Meaning that we all, male and female, are to remain silent and allow the Holy Spirit to speak - which cannot occur by other means than those prescribed, i.e., as male and female representing Christ properly as Head over the church, a light unto the nations.

 

[miknik5]

That of course is true, but we still have gender roles to perform in our service of presenting Christ (male) as Head of the church (female), as a confirmation of His word, by which through creation He has purposed to distinctly separate us for these times.
That too is correct. Paul spoke in the spirit, referring to the church as all who would be the bride of Christ. Meaning that we all, male and female, are to remain silent and allow the Holy Spirit to speak - which cannot occur by other means than those prescribed, i.e., as male and female representing Christ properly as Head over the church, a light unto the nations.

And as head of His own body He gets the right to direct the "members" of His Body as He chooses. And He is able to give gifts according to His Purpose

 

[miknik5]

would it bother anyone if a little child would lead many to Christ?

 

[oioimoi]

I dont see appeal in eternal life of hardships in the name of divine goodness. Hardcore believers usually resort to masochism and mediate on death and hell to abandon comfort and thoughts about pleasure. What point in such eternity? I sincerely dont care about the divine good, when I have my own egoism to take care of. And I usually heard promises of agonizing pain of hell for refusing Gods mercy.

 

[quatona]

Some people might actually find the most "joy" by being atheistic and racking up a sexual body count. Sad, but true.

Yeah, atheism is actually all about sex (and BBQing kittens, for some).