Fallen from Grace.......explain please

[Photini]

Does that answer your question?

Yes

 

[Benedicta00]

Just to add to what Kim said....As a Protestant once the salvation issue is settled then there is nothing you could do to lose it etc. because if it were possible for you to lose it then that means that you had a part in obtaining it to begin with and of course we know that to be "works." Anyhow...even though you supposedly cannot lose your salvation you still strive to live as God would have you to do in all areas of your life. So you don't live like you want but strive for purity etc. in all areas of your life. Good works are manfested "because" you are saved and not to be saved. In other words people who aren't doing them are looked on with suspicion as to whether they are genuine Christians. The differences in confession would be that we confess directly to God. I've been to counselors in the Church I was attending before all this and basically you just talked about what was going on with you and they hand you a book or a bible study and send you on your way. It was always very discouraging to me.

You know what the problem with that is?

Nothing you explained is biblical in the least.

Where the heck is confessing your belief and it does not matter if you sin afterwards? I know the, “with your lips that Jesus is Lord…” but context is everything. There is so much being read into that one line, you have to believe in Christ in order to be saved… duh. I think this verse is in reference to there is no salvation outside of Christ rather than if you sin, you can’t lose salvation.

And works are a sign of faith and being a true Christian? Where can we find this in scripture? Certainly not from James. James says that faith without works is dead, that you can have faith but if you do not have works your faith will not be a living faith that leads you to salvation. There is no mention of faith being a sign and a automatic that you are saved and the bile does not say that works will automatically come, any honest person knows better, they know they have to put effort into doing good and avoiding sin.

Bedsides, tell the guys who don't have any works that they are not really saved, they will think you are crazy because “Jesus is enough.”

 

[twosid]

A Protestant would tell you that.....

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

and this would be presented to mean that you can't "earn" your salvation or receive it through works and that it is a free gift etc.

and

John 28-29 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

would be quoted to you to say you cannot lose your salvation.....

There are more those are just a couple...I've got to run.

I've always been bothered by the works issue. For me....regeneration is the sign...not works. There are many folks doing good works who are evil.

 

[Benedicta00]

A Protestant would tell you that.....

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

and this would be presented to mean that you can't "earn" your salvation or receive it through works and that it is a free gift etc.

and

John 28-29 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

would be quoted to you to say you cannot lose your salvation.....

There are more those are just a couple...I've got to run.

I've always been bothered by the works issue. For me....regeneration is the sign...not works. There are many folks doing good works who are evil.

Yes there is and Paul was not talking about good works but works of the law. We are under grace now, not the law so when we do sin and fall short, the law is not saving us, grace is. There is no mention of us no longer being required to make an effort to develop virtue.

Also, once you are baptized, you bare a mark on your soul of being born again, freed from original sin, you can never go back and be born to Adam's seed again- you are a child of God, you can be the prodigal son but you will always be a son none the less. No one will take you from God but you can jump out His hands if you choose to. Just like our children will always be our children but they can leave our house if the wish never to return again.

 

[artnalex]

A Protestant would tell you that.....

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

and this would be presented to mean that you can't "earn" your salvation or receive it through works and that it is a free gift etc.

Firstly, no Catholic believes that you can earn your way into heaven either. We are saved by grace. But it is not just faith that is needed, but works, too.

To deny works is to deny what the Bible states. In fact, James 2:14-26 is abundantly clear.

"14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (The answer implied is "no".)

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well, "but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. "

Perhaps what St. Paul has said about "justified by faith" should be viewed in light of what has been stated by St. James. Then the two can be harmonized without having to resort to mental gymnastics.

 

[artnalex]

John 28-29 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

would be quoted to you to say you cannot lose your salvation.....

Well, if you are going to just ignore other parts of the Bible it will be hard to have an honest discussion on this stopic.

Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12

In fact, if I recall correctly, Revelations talks about those who have faith, but lose their salvation in the end. But they had faith!

 

[twosid]

Firstly, no Catholic believes that you can earn your way into heaven either.

Every Protestant that I personally know believes this to be true however. It is taught in the Church I attended and many, many others. Why do Catholics not get the word out? I am suprised at how much I'm learning about Catholicism that I'm connnecting with a parallel slam in the my old Church.

 

[artnalex]

Why do Catholics not get the word out?

This may be hard to believe, but there are many denominations that revolve around slamming the Church. No matter how much we say "grace alone", it is always reported that we say "works alone" - as though faith is inconsequential.

You would be surprised to find out that many denominations spend considerable amount of time discussing Catholicism, and how it is wrong. A lifelong Catholic will typically know very little about any protestant belief. However, many protestant religions think they know most of what Catholics believe.

I don't know how many times I have heard protestant evangelists knowingly lie by saying Catholics worship statues, worship Mary, and think Catholics can work their way into heaven. Now, they know we don't believe that, but I guess they feel that they look smarter if they can slander us.

 

[artnalex]

It is taught in the Church I attended and many, many others.

Just to be nitpicky:

Please change "C"hurch to "c"hurch for future refernce, unless you are referring to the Catholic Church.

I know, I can be anal that way.

 

[twosid]

Just to be nitpicky:

Please change "C"hurch to "c"hurch for future refernce, unless you are referring to the Catholic Church.

I know, I can be anal that way.

Why?

 

[Ampmonster]

because with Catholic Church your refering to a specific church and it should be capitalized.
but if your saying "that church down the street" (catholic or not) your being non specific.

 

[kimber1]

i think he thought you were referring to the Catholic Church, ( which we capitalize )rather than anotehr church

 

[artnalex]

i think he thought you were referring to the Catholic Church, ( which we capitalize )rather than anotehr church

Actually, it is because TWOSID was NOT referring to the Catholic Church.

Like in most legal documents, you do not cappitalize a word unless it has been defined. The "C"hurch has been defined as teh Catholic Church. So unless you are speaking of the Catholic Church, it should not be capitalized.

Besides, for the most part, Protestants do not believe in a visible "C"hurch. They believe in "c"hurches.

 

[Photini]

In fact, if I recall correctly, Revelations talks about those who have faith, but lose their salvation in the end. But they had faith!

At the end of Revelation it reads: "And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." (Rev. 22:19)

IMO, this is probably one of the clearest statements possible that you can lose your salvation....how could something be taken away from you, unless you had something that could be taken away?

 

[twosid]

At the end of Revelation it reads: "And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." (Rev. 22:19)

IMO, this is probably one of the clearest statements possible that you can lose your salvation....how could something be taken away from you, unless you had something that could be taken away?

Losing salvation is a scary thought. When do you know though? I mean is death the only thing that reveals if you've messed up more than is allowed?

 

[Rising_Suns]

Losing salvation is a scary thought. When do you know though? I mean is death the only thing that reveals if you've messed up more than is allowed?

I do not think it is our place to be concerned about our salvation. Really, to the one who truly loves the Lord, the ultimate reward is irrelvant. The only thing that really matters to them is how to please the Lord out of there shear love for Him. If you are at this point--where every moment of your life revolves around how to please the Lord--then you can have some assurance that God will be mercifull. Otherwise, I would not get too comfortable.

 

[twosid]

I do not think it is our place to be concerned about our salvation. Really, to the one who truly loves the Lord, the ultimate reward is irrelvant.

If you loved God then would you not want to spend eternity with God? If you are in hell then I submit you would miss out on this. I would think that one who truly loves the Lord should definitely care about their destination.

 

[Rising_Suns]

If you loved God then would you not want to spend eternity with God? If you are in hell then I submit you would miss out on this. I would think that one who truly loves the Lord should definitely care about their destination.

Well, yes. But what I am saying is that our intentions should not be focussed on what we receive in the end, but what we can give right now.

This tends to be the difference in mindset between Protestants and Catholic/Orthodox. But you're right; ultimately, if we love the Lord, we naturally will desire to be with unified with Him in the end. But this love should manifest itself through obedience; through living the word right now; today.



True love, is obedience.

 

[twosid]

Well, yes. But what I am saying is that our intentions should not be focussed on what we receive in the end, but what we can give right now.

Because salvation is the main focus of almost every sermon where I used to attend Church (j/k) you tend to use a lot of time pondering the issue. You'll frequently get preachers that will say things like...."Do you know that you know, that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know, that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know, that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know you will go to Heaven when you die?" I'm like hell...after that I don't even know what planet I'm on and what my name is much less if I'm going to Heaven or not. This kind of garbage is what started my breakdown in belief of "being saved" although I doubted the concept always. I've spent waaaaaaay more time on it than I should.....made it an idol even....I think. Obsessed with it would be no exageration. Anyhow now that I don't believe it that no longer is an issue.

 

[BAChristian]

You'll frequently get preachers that will say things like...."Do you know that you know, that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know, that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know, that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know that you know you will go to Heaven when you die?" I'm like hell...after that I don't even know what planet I'm on and what my name is much less if I'm going to Heaven or not.

Ya know, there's something to be said about good ole' fire and brimstone preaching, though. When I become a Deacon within His Church, I'm gonna bring some of this back.

Maybe not as hardcore Bible thumping, but definitely some finger pointing...

I guess for me, I know I'm going to heaven right now, if I were to die, as I type this...why? Because I just went to confession two days ago, and have not committed any mortal sin. I know, for a fact, that if I were to die right now, I'd be in His arms...

And that's really what it should boil down to when someone asks, "Are you saved?"

Because, at the end of the day, anyone can say they love God and they profess Jesus' name. But do they live it? Are they in a gravely sinful state? Only they and God know.