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Fallen from Grace.......explain please
- Thread starter twosid
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Benedicta00
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twosid said:
Then why was Paul the one to say they should only have one wife? If it is bizarre blame him, not the Church. Let this stand to show you how serious the Church takes marriage.
Because you as a Protestants are not attending Mass, Mass and Protestant services are not the same thing. It is a sin that the reformation did away with the Mass. It is all part of the error and the heresy of the reformation. I really don't think you have a good grasp of what exactly is Mass.
The sin is you do not love God with your whole heart, your whole mind, your whole soul and all of your strength. That you are not honoring Him by keeping His day holy. It isnt only going to Mass, we are commanded to keep Sunday holy. That means making time for God through out the day where you have no obligations but to be with Him on this day.
Explain to me how you are loving God, if you cant even give Him one day? Explain to me how those who do not love God dwell in eternity with Him? Explain to me how it is that Jesus died so you no longer have to love God?
Can you explain to me if the Mass is where you literally meet your savior in the Eucharist where you receive Him in your body as food for the journey through life to be strengthen, sanctified, sustained living as a child of God how you are loving Him with all of your being if you dont even go to Mass where you are the closet to heaven on earth you will ever be in this lifetime? Where you have the opportunity to be at Calvary? How do you think you truly love Christ if you can not be with Him as He suffered and died for you?
It is because you do not love God- that is how you sin. How long do you think the love will last for your spouse if you never make time for them? It is un heard of for us to not make time for our spouse or expect our spouse to not make time for us, if they really loved us, they would, but it is okay for you who say you love God not to make time for him? Can you please explain to me how you think this is any less of a sin than any other?
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hmmmmm....yessssss.....<insert maniacal laughter>Shelb5 said:
Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, can we drop this? It has nothing to do with the OP and in a million lifetimes I would never think that someone who was a pedophile or a murderer or many other things was more qualified to be in Church leadership than someone who was involved in a divorce. It would take an act of God for me to even begin to agree with that philosophy.
I probably don't but that is why I'm here.Shelb5 said:
So I'm guessing your saying that my description was wrong? It is confusing when you just throw out another point and don't address what I said previously. Scream it long and loud if I'm wrong. Don't expect me to be intelligent enough to second guess you or read your mind cause I'll let you down. I stumble on this description because I don't think anyone loves God with their whole heart, mind, soul, strength. Its a goal that I see many people have but I'm yet to see anyone realize it. So now I need to understand how you mean that before I can proceed.Shelb5 said:
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Nope...I've been trying to figure out what Michelle is saying.thereselittleflower said:
I'll put it on now whilst I'm cleaning. She seems to know her stuff so if I can ever get on the right frequency I'm sure I can learn a lot from her.
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Benedicta00
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twosid said:
What the problem is, this is neither the philosophy of the Church. You are thinking it is and it isnt.
You can only one wife to be a deacon, the analogy you add on to that is your own, it is not the mind set of the Church where they will say but if you were a murderer you can be a deacon, this is your spin that you are putting on it and you are being a stumbling block to yourself by doing so.
Let's start with erasing the understanding that it is a service designed for "after the fact" After you are saved. Mass is a during the fact as you are being saved.
What have I not addressed?
You are asking why is it a sin to not go to Mass intentionally and I answered you- because it breaks the first and third commandment.
You have trouble understanding how this is a sin, you will have to ask God to show you why He asks for all your love, not just when you feel like giving it to Him.
You seems to want to say that just because someone wants to miss Mass they does not mean they dont love God but I disagree because THIS IS WHERE WE MEET THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE and we receive Him personally, why in the world would someone who claims to love God and who claims to give the reverence that the Supreme Being, their creator deserves, not want to attend Mass where He is there waiting for them, do you realize that God waits there for us?
Anyone who would rather do anything else than go to Mass, I need you to explain that to me because I can not understand this.
I know how you are viewing this, you were taught to believe that salvation can not be earned and offering Mass for sin, is earning salvation so a Protestant service isnt the sacrifice of Calvary, its a type of celebration.
I can see how Protestants arent missing much when they miss Sunday worship because you can sing at home and read your bible at home.
To Catholics worship is adoring and giving due honor to the God of the universe in His real presence.
So therefore in Protestantism, if you get saved, you are under no obligation at all to do anything and Sunday worship is just a service where you give your thanks for God saving you no strings attached.
Catholics offer the Mass for their sins, if you dont go, what sacrifice is being made?
What you have been is ransomed for a high price, you have not been saved but you are in the process of being saved, so missing Mass can really cause you to lose salvation not only because it is a sin but because you can not be sanctified with out it.
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Benedicta00
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PS Twsoid,
Also...
Jesus died to give you the Mass. The Mass is Calvary and Calvary is what remits your sins. The grace that comes from Christ's blood shed is given to you at Mass, if you reject that willfully that is rejecting grace and that is what puts you in mortal sin.
Also...
Jesus died to give you the Mass. The Mass is Calvary and Calvary is what remits your sins. The grace that comes from Christ's blood shed is given to you at Mass, if you reject that willfully that is rejecting grace and that is what puts you in mortal sin.
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I've more to understand. I don't understand why it is so difficult. I've never been considered stupid by any means but it seems like I am in regard to Catholicism. Its weird....it is so difficult to understand...you would think it wouldn't be that way. Anyhow...I'm going to Mass on Sunday and going to a Mass and the Sacrements class on Tuesday night. While that won't exactly provide understanding maybe I'll pick up something.Shelb5 said:
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Twosid,
You and I are having the same dilemma actually,,rtying to understand the true dynamics of sin.
I recently read, and am still reading, a book on this and maybe this will help you somewhat,,,
From what I understand, sin is not just a matter of breaking a rule, it is more a matter of being in a state of separation from God's grace. And that this state is a process of entering into this separation by deliberately ignoring what you are aware God wants from you, and then that state actually having to go through a process of progression. It seems that the state of sin has a definite progression that must take place from its origin to its end, and when one gets caught up in that process they are sort of carried with it like a feather in the wind.
The end of that progression, should grace not be restored, will be eternal damnation, as that is the end for anything that becomes permanently separated from God. Sin is like the progressive end of your relationship with God which will finalize in eternal damnation, if something is not done to remove you from the desstiny of sins course.
God's grace is available to us all at all times, and it is only by being restored to grace by the sacrament of reconcilation that we are able to be removed from the progression of that sin. That sin has an end destination, and we do not want to stay on that trian if we love God and want to be with Him.
So, even though in our lives we may find ourselves in a state of mortal sin, that state is not who we are or what we have become, it is more a vehicle of corruption that we have placed ourselves on which will take us to death if we do not get off before it is too late. But one cannot get onto this vehicle by mistake....the only way to get onto this train of death is willingly and knowingly....one has to deliberately choose to jump onto it knowing that this vehicle is going to haul them away from the Presence and grace of God. Riding this train will dissolve your relationship with God, and by continuing on this ride all the way to the end, one forever removes themsleves from God's relationship.
So mortal sin will lead to eternal death, yes. But there is no reason to remain in mortal sin to that end. God's grace is always available, but you must choose it.
So mortal sin's end in eternal damnation is not because that was the penalty for mortal sin, but because you chose to stay on the train. Mortal sin is simply fully ignoring God to the end.
You and I are having the same dilemma actually,,rtying to understand the true dynamics of sin.
I recently read, and am still reading, a book on this and maybe this will help you somewhat,,,
From what I understand, sin is not just a matter of breaking a rule, it is more a matter of being in a state of separation from God's grace. And that this state is a process of entering into this separation by deliberately ignoring what you are aware God wants from you, and then that state actually having to go through a process of progression. It seems that the state of sin has a definite progression that must take place from its origin to its end, and when one gets caught up in that process they are sort of carried with it like a feather in the wind.
The end of that progression, should grace not be restored, will be eternal damnation, as that is the end for anything that becomes permanently separated from God. Sin is like the progressive end of your relationship with God which will finalize in eternal damnation, if something is not done to remove you from the desstiny of sins course.
God's grace is available to us all at all times, and it is only by being restored to grace by the sacrament of reconcilation that we are able to be removed from the progression of that sin. That sin has an end destination, and we do not want to stay on that trian if we love God and want to be with Him.
So, even though in our lives we may find ourselves in a state of mortal sin, that state is not who we are or what we have become, it is more a vehicle of corruption that we have placed ourselves on which will take us to death if we do not get off before it is too late. But one cannot get onto this vehicle by mistake....the only way to get onto this train of death is willingly and knowingly....one has to deliberately choose to jump onto it knowing that this vehicle is going to haul them away from the Presence and grace of God. Riding this train will dissolve your relationship with God, and by continuing on this ride all the way to the end, one forever removes themsleves from God's relationship.
So mortal sin will lead to eternal death, yes. But there is no reason to remain in mortal sin to that end. God's grace is always available, but you must choose it.
So mortal sin's end in eternal damnation is not because that was the penalty for mortal sin, but because you chose to stay on the train. Mortal sin is simply fully ignoring God to the end.
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twosidstwosid said:I've more to understand. I don't understand why it is so difficult. I've never been considered stupid by any means but it seems like I am in regard to Catholicism. Its weird....it is so difficult to understand...you would think it wouldn't be that way. Anyhow...I'm going to Mass on Sunday and going to a Mass and the Sacrements class on Tuesday night. While that won't exactly provide understanding maybe I'll pick up something.
More than likely you are operating under presuppositions and assumptions that are causing you to look at our words in a manner that causes them not to make sense.
It is not because you are dense or stupid, but because you are wearing the wrong colored glasses so to speak . .
You are wearing blue glasses and we are speaking in red . . you can't see it very well. . .
we have to find what these presumptions and presuppositions are so you can put them aside . . . .
Peace in Him!
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Benedicta00
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thereselittleflower said:
I agree. He is trying to understand Catholicism through the Protestant understanding of theology. I did that for a while and it wasnt until I realize that I do not have to make Catholicism harmonize with Protestantism, I began to really get all of this.
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Protestantism is my only frame of reference and I don't think I'm trying to make them harmonize but immediately I can clearly see things from the Protestant perspective but when I try and understand what you are saying I just don't get it even looked at in a way that I thought was by itself. I'm not sure. You and many others have been extremely helpful and extremely patient and I'm grateful for that because I still feel like I'm in a fog. So what did you do? Its hard to look at it totally objectively because of 10 years of filling my head day in and day out with this stuff that may have been very misleading. What did you do to make it easier to put all that aside? Thanks for your patience and help. You have been very helpful and patient beyond all reason with me. You and many others.Shelb5 said:
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Benedicta00
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Don't try to understand based on what you believe about it. Try to erase it from your mind.
For exampole, thinking Mass is no big to miss because Christ saved you a-l-r-e-a-d-y. Think of it has He didn't save you already but is saving you right now day in and day out. Some things you do will cooperate with Him saving you and some things won't- like missing Mass.
For exampole, thinking Mass is no big to miss because Christ saved you a-l-r-e-a-d-y. Think of it has He didn't save you already but is saving you right now day in and day out. Some things you do will cooperate with Him saving you and some things won't- like missing Mass.
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kimber1
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twosid, have you eve read anything by scott hahn? or by any convert to Catholicism? reading their story and seeing how it became clear to them may help you immensely.
read the CCC.
Rome sweet Home (i may have that reversed
)
The Lamb's Supper
Where is that in the Bible?
What Catholic's Really Believe
basically anything you cna get your hands on. acttually if one of your biggest problems is the Mass i would say read 'The Lamb's Supper' by scott hahn. he shows how completely biblical it is and how it is heaven brought down to earth for us everytime we attend. it's a huge eye opener.
read the CCC.
Rome sweet Home (i may have that reversed
)The Lamb's Supper
Where is that in the Bible?
What Catholic's Really Believe
basically anything you cna get your hands on. acttually if one of your biggest problems is the Mass i would say read 'The Lamb's Supper' by scott hahn. he shows how completely biblical it is and how it is heaven brought down to earth for us everytime we attend. it's a huge eye opener.
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I'll put those on my list of books to buy when I get a job.kimber1 said:twosid, have you eve read anything by scott hahn? or by any convert to Catholicism? reading their story and seeing how it became clear to them may help you immensely.
read the CCC.
Rome sweet Home (i may have that reversed
The Lamb's Supper
Where is that in the Bible?
What Catholic's Really Believe
basically anything you cna get your hands on. acttually if one of your biggest problems is the Mass i would say read 'The Lamb's Supper' by scott hahn. he shows how completely biblical it is and how it is heaven brought down to earth for us everytime we attend. it's a huge eye opener.
I woke up this morning and was thinking about it in the bed and it was like the light went on and I got it and then I thought I'd get up and post and see if I had it right and it all went fuzzy again.
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twosids, I know . . it was 30 years for me. . .twosid said:
There comes a shift in thinking . . . in persepctive, and until it happens, it is hard to be aware of the need for it to happen. I think continued exposure to Catholicism and Cathoolic "things" over a period of time helps a great deat.
I remember listening to Catholic Answers on the radio near the beginning of my journey into Catholicism, listening to people like Karl Keating . . I would listen, be puzzeld by some of what I heard, learnig somethings about Catholicism I had never realized, gradually dispelling myths and misconceptions I had.
But I also remember listening to some thngs they said and thinking "he sure missed it on that one, that's got to be wrong . . . " . . . but over time, I began to unconsiously make a shift in my thinking, and suddenly, what seemed wrong to me before no longer did so, because I had begun to undertand it.
When it comes to sin, as Protestants, we are taught that all sins are alike, that one sin is not greater than another . . . so the idea that some sins are greater than others within Catholicism is a very foreign idea to us. As silly as this might sound, because the differences seem pretty straightforward, this can really be difficult to get our minds around . . . and it is because of those darn tinted glasses we are unaware of even existing. Even when we are aware of them in one area, we are unconsious of their presence and influence in other areas.
I think perhaps, that one of the pieces of the puzzle that is influencing how you think about this is how you perceive sin, and what you perceive it to be, its nature, its action, its consequences . . .
The Protestant idea of sin is very simplistic . . overly simplistic, and perhapas dangerously simplistic . . .
Perhaps if you could describe for us how you percieve sin, what you perceive it to be, etc, it might help us address this issue in a way that makes more sense to you, so it is more easily understood.
Does that make sense?
Peace in Him!
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twosid said:I'll put those on my list of books to buy when I get a job.
yep, that will happen But it also means that shift is beginning to take place. Peace in Him!
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Benedicta00
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Which leads to the OP. I think also it is worth mentioning that in the USA we, Catholics have adopted a lot of the Protestant view since the early days of America. The sense of sin and the seriousness of what it can do to our soul is lost. In other countries especially the Spanish people, we see them still doing rigorous penance for their sins.
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